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On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing.
Yeah scans are a solution!...
![[image loading]](http://s28.postimg.org/yriul47y5/Untitled.jpg)
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Croatia5536 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing.
Scans are used later in the game when you have more orbitals and full 3 base SCV saturation, mostly to spot the location of protoss army, but early on you need as much minerals you can get and scan doesn't guarantee you will see anything even in protoss base, not to mention buildings can be proxied on the map.
Just a comparison on difference in economy:
At 10 minutes, protoss can get to something like 64 probes, maybe even more (HerO had 64 probes in one game on Habitation during IEM)
At 10 minutes with reaper expand, terran can get to something like 50-52 SCVs. 1 MULE is around 4 SCVs so with constant muling from 2 orbitals, you have around 58 workers compared to 64 of protoss.
So using 1 or 2 scans in the first 10 minutes of the game actually hurts you a lot, especially if you don't get the information you need.
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France9034 Posts
On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!...
What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/
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On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/
But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted?
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On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/
coz you lost so much to proxy tech as a protoss. meh.
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On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/
Well was just joking abit with that example... but it still annoys me how people considering scans as a tech scout option, since who the hell said the tech need to be in their base???
Anyhow, people can go and compare whats more "expensive"... sentry + hallu energy or scan.. thats arguable - but the guaranteed scout range of an hallu vs a scan is just ridicules and pointless to even compare whats more efficient.
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On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted?
Cloaked banshee?
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On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee?
LOL
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On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee?
Cloaked banshee coming out of 5 times farther from my base must be so OP.
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On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee?
That was quite funny tbh.
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On February 18 2014 04:13 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee? That was quite funny tbh.
DTs that can fly!!!!!!!!!!!
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On February 18 2014 02:52 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 02:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I find it really amusing how the current discussion on balance is unfolding.
I stopped watching/playing for a good 10 months, and prior to that, Terran was consistently the best. They had the most options in terms of builds, they had the most flexible units, they had the most tournament wins, etc. etc. Then suddenly I come back and everyone is saying the exact same thing about Protoss. Zerg has just always been that odd sibling that rarely has too many problems.
Protoss, by design, will be easier to play. This has been true since 1998. That's why, in BW, it was always, "easiest to learn, hardest to master" when talking about Protoss. They have high-cost, high-powered units and abilities, meaning there is less to micro and less to do overall. If you pull off their power plays, then you have to effectively do less to gain more, since it is the race that relies on high-powered stuff to win (versus T especially, which relies on combining many low-power plays/units). Their power is in highly efficient units (Reaver, Colossus) and powerful spells (Stasis, Psionic Storm). The downside is that they were the weakest race at the highest levels of play in BW. The transition from BW to WoL saw the exact same thing. Terran was the hardest to learn (required the most APM and not relying on power units like Protoss does) but had the highest skill ceiling, just like in BW, so they took off and were consistently on top for a long time (remember the days of TvT GSL?). Protoss was also the weakest, as they had the highest floor but the lowest ceiling.
So what changed? I remember the days where we talked about how absolutely screwed Protoss was against Ghosts; late-game unlimited scans to take out Observers + Snipe and EMP having a ridiculously long range meant that Ghosts would just always win that fight. I also remember the incessant complaints about how good M&M drops were/are, and how they were too effective for their cost, and how Warp Gates+Colossi completely ruined the design of Protoss and limited them in every way. Were some big nerfs rolled out while I was gone?
Honestly the only difference that I saw in this tournament when compared to what I used to watch is that it seems like Protoss is never in danger at the beginning of the game, and that used to be their primary weakness. Gateway units are awful and easily the worst tier 1 army out of the 3 factions, being defensive meant an early Forge + a lot of money for cannons (never really viable), and scouting was almost non-existent until you paid for Hallucination or rushed an Observer. But now, between free Hallucinations and the Mothership Core, Protoss has some absurd defensive capabilities + fantastic scouting, so there just doesn't seem to be any real weakness. You're a little bit all over the place in your post, could you try to more clearly state what exactly you are arguing?
I didn't actually argue any particular balance points. I just noted that 1) Protoss is going to be easier to play/require less mechanics, and it will always be that way due to the philosophy of the race, and 2) the only real difference that I see between the dark days of WoL and today is that Protoss have a much, much safer early game.
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On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee?
A fusion core, obviously.
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On February 18 2014 04:21 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:58 MichaelDonovan wrote:On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted? Cloaked banshee? A fusion core, obviously.
The ol proxy 6-port BC rush has won me more than a game or two.
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On February 18 2014 04:20 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 02:52 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 18 2014 02:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I find it really amusing how the current discussion on balance is unfolding.
I stopped watching/playing for a good 10 months, and prior to that, Terran was consistently the best. They had the most options in terms of builds, they had the most flexible units, they had the most tournament wins, etc. etc. Then suddenly I come back and everyone is saying the exact same thing about Protoss. Zerg has just always been that odd sibling that rarely has too many problems.
Protoss, by design, will be easier to play. This has been true since 1998. That's why, in BW, it was always, "easiest to learn, hardest to master" when talking about Protoss. They have high-cost, high-powered units and abilities, meaning there is less to micro and less to do overall. If you pull off their power plays, then you have to effectively do less to gain more, since it is the race that relies on high-powered stuff to win (versus T especially, which relies on combining many low-power plays/units). Their power is in highly efficient units (Reaver, Colossus) and powerful spells (Stasis, Psionic Storm). The downside is that they were the weakest race at the highest levels of play in BW. The transition from BW to WoL saw the exact same thing. Terran was the hardest to learn (required the most APM and not relying on power units like Protoss does) but had the highest skill ceiling, just like in BW, so they took off and were consistently on top for a long time (remember the days of TvT GSL?). Protoss was also the weakest, as they had the highest floor but the lowest ceiling.
So what changed? I remember the days where we talked about how absolutely screwed Protoss was against Ghosts; late-game unlimited scans to take out Observers + Snipe and EMP having a ridiculously long range meant that Ghosts would just always win that fight. I also remember the incessant complaints about how good M&M drops were/are, and how they were too effective for their cost, and how Warp Gates+Colossi completely ruined the design of Protoss and limited them in every way. Were some big nerfs rolled out while I was gone?
Honestly the only difference that I saw in this tournament when compared to what I used to watch is that it seems like Protoss is never in danger at the beginning of the game, and that used to be their primary weakness. Gateway units are awful and easily the worst tier 1 army out of the 3 factions, being defensive meant an early Forge + a lot of money for cannons (never really viable), and scouting was almost non-existent until you paid for Hallucination or rushed an Observer. But now, between free Hallucinations and the Mothership Core, Protoss has some absurd defensive capabilities + fantastic scouting, so there just doesn't seem to be any real weakness. You're a little bit all over the place in your post, could you try to more clearly state what exactly you are arguing? I didn't actually argue any particular balance points. I just noted that 1) Protoss is going to be easier to play/require less mechanics, and it will always be that way due to the philosophy of the race, and 2) the only real difference that I see between the dark days of WoL and today is that Protoss have a much, much safer early game.
Ok, guess I didn't misunderstand you then 
On both notes; Protoss has different 'demands' from a player than Zerg or Terran.
Protoss does require more game reading and anticipating, while Zerg requires constant attention with creep and larvae and Terran has the massive spikes in control needed to control an army well.
However, as you stated, Protoss is a bit too safe early on now, which makes the demand for decision making and positioning your different forces negligable - you can be strong enough to hold anything reasonable at any spot in your base, unlike WOL, in which it happened reasonably often a Terran would get a drop out just away from Protoss defense and wreak havoc. A combination of Overcharge, safer/faster tech and faster warpgates make it so Protoss CAN defend well without the corresponding demand of scouting what happens and splitting the army up well.
I think that is the bigger problem later in the game. Early game problems can all be reasonably solved by making Terran less vulnerable to attacks while Protoss becomes more vulnerable.
That being said, there's a lot of factors playing a role, maps for example are far from negligable in this discussion, as is Terrans lack of a decent lategame, or the demand of 3 bases for Deathball in this game. These all play roles by forcing certain limitations on one race or the other, and in the current metagame/map pool, this apparantly favors Protoss.
Concluding, it's really hard to find and fix problems :D
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On February 18 2014 01:59 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +I noticed Polt would rarely get his medivacs sniped through feedback, because either he was smart enough to send low energy medivacs to harass or because the games were so back and forth they naturally didn't have energy. Either way, it's possible to avoid feedback. Yes by not making units that require energy lol thats how you avoid feedback... LOL you are talking about making it so Feedback doesn't auto kill the unit but honestly if a protoss wnats to feedback yoru drop just have 1 templar sitting on the edge with cannons in good spots.....
If you payed attention, you'd see Polt would purposely stim his bio in the middle of nowhere waiting to do a drop so his medivacs would have less energy and couldn't be fedback. It was quite smart actually, that's how he ripped Rain apart and sniped so many bases off hero, he made it so that couple templar and couple zealots just couldn't hold his drops. Polt, unlike most terrans, is innovating, it's good shit to see.
The observer of the game even showed it, not sure how ppl missed it.
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Polt is the best player in TvP imo. Doesn't change the fact that Terran players have to play so much better than the Toss equivalent in this matchup. Hope it gets somehow fixed with the next patches.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
On February 18 2014 04:42 TurboMaN wrote:
Polt is the best player in TvP imo. Doesn't change the fact that Terran players have to play so much better than the Toss equivalent in this matchup. Hope it gets somehow fixed with the next patches.
polt is great in macro but even he struggles from early toss aggression
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France9034 Posts
On February 18 2014 03:42 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:37 Ragnarork wrote:On February 18 2014 03:16 dohgg wrote:On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well.... The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers. Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now? The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed. By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO. MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing. Yeah scans are a solution!... What's your point? That scouting options might miss hidden tech/proxies/etc ? That doesn't only apply to scans, but to obs, hallu, MSC, as well :/ But what kind of critical tech can Terran hide to auto-win if unscouted?
I totally agree on the fact Terran has quite a poor choice of such critical tech (the only thing that comes to mind is a proxy factory/port to bring hellions/mines in the opponent's base).
But my point was about scouting options, which aren't a problem at the moment in my opinion, the most sensible match-up being, IMO, TvP, for which there's a whole lot of things to do when scouting that gives you hint about what the protoss is doing: pylons, gases, etc, plus I think the scan around 6:30 is still mandatory (though I use it since WoL without giving it that much of a reflexion...  )
Then, I think you're way more informed/knowledgable than me, so correct me if I'm wrong thinking this way
On February 18 2014 13:50 dargul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 04:42 TurboMaN wrote:
Polt is the best player in TvP imo. Doesn't change the fact that Terran players have to play so much better than the Toss equivalent in this matchup. Hope it gets somehow fixed with the next patches. polt is great in macro but even he struggles from early toss aggression
Well, that game vs Rain on Yeonsu was a perfect example of how smart he can be to defend early toss aggression IMO....
I'll sure as hell try to remember the way he played and try to emulate it, because it clearly shows you can put a lot of pressure on the toss, and punish him if he commits too heavily (and notably reestablish some kind of balance or even take a small lead, when you made several bunkers to be safe that could help you defend but slow your macro too much)
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Is there a reason Terrans uses no cloacked Banshees against Protosses?
Even if the Protoss start with a stargate with oracle first for detection it will mess up the timing for harassment cause the oracle has to stay back to detect the Banshee. And against blink without robo there is absolutly no detection.
Or did I miss some timing issue here?
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EPT
