Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 910

On February 17 2014 23:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:
So it's very interesting to see Polt get to the finals and I'm sure David Kim is going to use this result as a " Hey Look Terran is ok! See?"

I've talked about this quite a bit , but is it the problem that Terran haven't come up with a new Meta style in order to combat Protoss or is it because Terran is UP?

We saw ForGG try a mech style then get finished off by hero with a proxy gateway, That was heartbreaking as ForGG is one of the most Mechanically sound players in the game to date.... his decision making against Protoss is his failing which is seeming to catch everyone except for polt.....

To me it seems crazy Polt is not the Best Micro player or the Macro player but his Decision making / Positioning and methodical approach to each match up seems so good.... So it begs the question is Terran truly UP and imbalanced aginst Protoss or is there a new meta we need to reach as a Race in order to level the playing field.... I guess time will only tell.....

On February 18 2014 00:02 MacSyndicate wrote:
The best way to describe protosses 'ease' is when I was trying to get into GM league with no sleep on a huge tilt. I probably lost 10 games in a row as terran - my supposed main race I practiced. But then I remembered how easy protoss is mechanically and mentally. After about 10 more games I got into GM with a race I don't even play. I was able to knock 'pros' out of tournaments with Protoss more consistently than with terran. I've played RTS games for years on end and I can definitely say since the original Command and Conquer's I haven't seen balance at wits end like this. It's like David Kim is having an ego-struggle with his creation when what we really want is just a balanced game that isn't glaringly easier for 1 person.

On February 18 2014 00:22 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I completely agree... but I feel with all the buzz and even MC saying well its just the maps .... I feel like There are many other avenues that can be looked at.... Hopefully ForGG starts pioneering them because it looks like he is trying to set up a solid TvP build and is in the works with it..... I'd say a month or 2 from now ForGG will be the forerunner for an innovative build against Toss that is aggressive that works well....

On February 17 2014 23:55 Glorfindel! wrote:
Balance Suggestion:

I think one way to open up for Terran vs Protoss would be that Feedback only damages Biological Units while still draining Energy from all energy units.

This way Ravens (well, okay), Medivacs, BCs and similar would not be totally useless when being Feedbacked.
Also it would force Protoss drop-defense to increase. For me when I watched Polt vs Hero it seems a bit odd when Polt every now and then (it hapend a few times) loses a full Drop Ship worth of units to a 25 mana-ability cause it has full energy.

HT would not change vs Ghost, Viper, Queens, Infestors and similar so only one match up would be effected.

The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers.

Also, there is usually quite noticeable difference in terran openings compared to protoss openings - for example seeing 2 gas in terran's base tells you much more than seeing 2 gas in protoss base which could mean a lot of things etc.

Also if protoss scouts 3 rax or a fast factory and a starport (probably for a mine drop), terran can't just completely change the plan upon being scouted. If terran however scouts blink, protoss can vary the number of gates from 1-3-5 or even 7 or simply take a faster third behind blink. Or he could add a DT shrine etc. So transitions are much more natural and manageable so even if you get a full scout that information gets obsolete very fast. Even in WoL we had protoss going for a fast colossus without thermal lance to trick terran into making vikings and then completely switch it up by going for templar tech instead. Now, almost every build has a transition that must be scouted.

The whole design just favors protoss in the early game and we may see some terrans come up with something new, but I don't think things will really change without Blizzard intervention. There is simply no doubt about it whatsoever so there is no point in waiting even longer and see if "meta somehow stabilizes".

So a good start (which they are doing now) is too nerf the MSC vision which will make scouting a bit harder for protoss and weaken blink play a bit, and having MSC on the map overall riskier, and then we can see where we go from there.

I noticed Polt would rarely get his medivacs sniped through feedback, because either he was smart enough to send low energy medivacs to harass or because the games were so back and forth they naturally didn't have energy. Either way, it's possible to avoid feedback.

On February 18 2014 01:29 Qwerty85 wrote:


The options terrans have are very limited compared to protoss. So if we just leve TvP alone and let "the meta develop", protoss will always have an edge over terran simply becasue protoss has much better scouting with the MSC, free halucination and terran only has reapers.

On February 18 2014 02:13 fx9 wrote:


Scans? Is orbital's energy only exclusively for MULES now or terrans somehow forget how to scan now?
The tool is there for you to scout but you choose to be greedy, who is to be blamed.

By the way, hallucination is not free, it costs 100energy which means 2less FF, which as you may guess, many complain for being too OP too. So protoss trades 2 imba FFs for a scout, fair trade IMO.
MSC vs reapers, both are not free, with reapers slightly worse due to map dependence. But Polt's reapers did so well for him in IEM Cologne which is a good thing.

On February 18 2014 01:38 SC2Toastie wrote:

Nitpick, it's 50 energy

On February 17 2014 23:55 Glorfindel! wrote:
Balance Suggestion:

I think one way to open up for Terran vs Protoss would be that Feedback only damages Biological Units while still draining Energy from all energy units.

This way Ravens (well, okay), Medivacs, BCs and similar would not be totally useless when being Feedbacked.
Also it would force Protoss drop-defense to increase. For me when I watched Polt vs Hero it seems a bit odd when Polt every now and then (it hapend a few times) loses a full Drop Ship worth of units to a 50 mana-ability cause it has full energy.

HT would not change vs Ghost, Viper, Queens, Infestors and similar so only one match up would be effected.

On February 18 2014 02:25 dargul wrote:
Scans? lol. After IEM scans are crap for scouting.
It's like every second TvP has proxy tech from protoss - good luck scouting it with scans

On February 18 2014 02:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I find it really amusing how the current discussion on balance is unfolding.

I stopped watching/playing for a good 10 months, and prior to that, Terran was consistently the best. They had the most options in terms of builds, they had the most flexible units, they had the most tournament wins, etc. etc. Then suddenly I come back and everyone is saying the exact same thing about Protoss. Zerg has just always been that odd sibling that rarely has too many problems.

Protoss, by design, will be easier to play. This has been true since 1998. That's why, in BW, it was always, "easiest to learn, hardest to master" when talking about Protoss. They have high-cost, high-powered units and abilities, meaning there is less to micro and less to do overall. If you pull off their power plays, then you have to effectively do less to gain more, since it is the race that relies on high-powered stuff to win (versus T especially, which relies on combining many low-power plays/units). Their power is in highly efficient units (Reaver, Colossus) and powerful spells (Stasis, Psionic Storm). The downside is that they were the weakest race at the highest levels of play in BW. The transition from BW to WoL saw the exact same thing. Terran was the hardest to learn (required the most APM and not relying on power units like Protoss does) but had the highest skill ceiling, just like in BW, so they took off and were consistently on top for a long time (remember the days of TvT GSL?). Protoss was also the weakest, as they had the highest floor but the lowest ceiling.

So what changed? I remember the days where we talked about how absolutely screwed Protoss was against Ghosts; late-game unlimited scans to take out Observers + Snipe and EMP having a ridiculously long range meant that Ghosts would just always win that fight. I also remember the incessant complaints about how good M&M drops were/are, and how they were too effective for their cost, and how Warp Gates+Colossi completely ruined the design of Protoss and limited them in every way. Were some big nerfs rolled out while I was gone?

Honestly the only difference that I saw in this tournament when compared to what I used to watch is that it seems like Protoss is never in danger at the beginning of the game, and that used to be their primary weakness. Gateway units are awful and easily the worst tier 1 army out of the 3 factions, being defensive meant an early Forge + a lot of money for cannons (never really viable), and scouting was almost non-existent until you paid for Hallucination or rushed an Observer. But now, between free Hallucinations and the Mothership Core, Protoss has some absurd defensive capabilities + fantastic scouting, so there just doesn't seem to be any real weakness.