EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 909
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TurboMaN
Germany925 Posts
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Rainmansc
Netherlands216 Posts
On February 17 2014 11:24 gnr9292 wrote: I think protoss has too little downsides for leaving their base undefended. When a zerg or terran leaves their base empty and the enemy attacks they must bring their forces back or have pre-existing static defense (bunker, turret, spine crawlers) however for protoss if harassment or an attack on their empty base is inflicted on them they have numerous options with little negative impact they may warp in some units or use photon overcharge and if they are attacked by a bigger army they can just use recall all of these responses are near immediate, making protoss very difficult to punish This is exactly why people feel so frustrated seeing protoss win sertain games. + the fact the herrassing as protoss is ALOT less micro intensive. While terran has to pick up and micro his ass of to get 2-3 probe kills, protoss can basicly a move zealots in from 1 side. Then do a drop press t 2 times and just move some zealots in from another side and you basicly make an attack that terran can only get even with IF defended perfectly. Since protoss has to be alot less scared with defending their base to drops etc. since hots. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
On February 17 2014 20:14 -Archangel- wrote: No. Hydras lost that game. When ahead JD invested huge amount of resources into a crappy unit and lost promptly. Hydra was a crap unit from the start of SC2 and was made even crappier as a AA unit in HotS. About time something is done. I really hope for LotV there is a bigger change planned then 0.08 boost in attack speed... I'm pretty sure hydra was a minor reason why JD lost that game. He lost the game primarily because his 6 lings and 18 roaches (39 supply 1500min 450gas) counter attack killed only 3 zealots, 2 sentries, 1 immortal and 2 gateways (14 supply 950min 300gas) after he held the first immortal push with 40 supply lead with 4 worker advantage. Without wasting that army, he would have won with or without hydralisk. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 17 2014 06:59 Morbidius wrote: After seeing that JD vs herO game 5... i think it might be time to undo this change: Immortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Potential mech players would love that change. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 17 2014 21:08 Bagi wrote: Potential mech players would love that change. What was it for to begin with ? Wasn't it designed to make PvP a better match-up by providing a better defense against blink based builds ? I'd be careful with that as not to break again a match-up to fix another... :/ | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:35 Ragnarork wrote: What was it for to begin with ? Wasn't it designed to make PvP a better match-up by providing a better defense against blink based builds ? I'd be careful with that as not to break again a match-up to fix another... :/ Think it was a band aid fix for the 1-1-1.. so you can snipe tanks yet I remember that protosses (well the smart ones) were learning to deal with it alot better along with bigger maps which indirectly nerfed the 111. This just happened to buff the soul train :D | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:35 Ragnarork wrote: What was it for to begin with ? Wasn't it designed to make PvP a better match-up by providing a better defense against blink based builds ? I'd be careful with that as not to break again a match-up to fix another... :/ It was made to help protoss with 1/1/1 because their immortals would usually be stuck behind stalkers and couldn't fire because they had lower range than stalkers. And that game bewteen JD and HerO was gross but it was mostly a map issue. Yeonsu and forcefields go very well together on that map. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:43 Qwerty85 wrote: It was made to help protoss with 1/1/1 because their immortals would usually be stuck behind stalkers and couldn't fire because they had lower range than stalkers. And that game bewteen JD and HerO was gross but it was mostly a map issue. Yeonsu and forcefields go very well together on that map. exactly, zerg only has a 43 % winrate vs toss on that map | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:38 YyapSsap wrote: Think it was a band aid fix for the 1-1-1.. so you can snipe tanks yet I remember that protosses (well the smart ones) were learning to deal with it alot better along with bigger maps which indirectly nerfed the 111. This just happened to buff the soul train :D I was thinking the same could work with the blink problem. How about decreasing the Stim research time? It was nerfed because it hit too early but this was at a time with low range queens and no MSC. Also the buff to make Protoss ground upgrades cheaper. At its time it made sense but with hots P don´t need this much centrys/gas to save expansions. | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:38 YyapSsap wrote: Think it was a band aid fix for the 1-1-1.. so you can snipe tanks yet I remember that protosses (well the smart ones) were learning to deal with it alot better along with bigger maps which indirectly nerfed the 111. This just happened to buff the soul train :D Oh right, I didn't remember the 1-1-1 was a thing before (Puma, if you hear me....  )I'm sure it benefited defensive protoss in PvP as well, but that might be my imagination. Dunno for the maps though. I always thought big maps weren't an advantage for terran but heh, I'm bad so what do I know ? | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:46 Micro_Jackson wrote: I was thinking the same could work with the blink problem. How about decreasing the Stim research time? It was nerfed because it hit too early but this was at a time with low range queens and no MSC. Also the buff to make Protoss ground upgrades cheaper. At its time it made sense but with hots P don´t need this much centrys/gas to save expansions. I don't think zergs would appreciate any kind of buffs to terran in the early game. No matter if it is stroner/faster bunkers, stim or anything else. TvZ is fine, it shouldn't be affected at all because it would just create new problems. What needs to be targeted with the patch is early game TvP. Blizzard is on the right track with proposed changes, we will see if that is enough after it goes through (I am talking about the MSC vision nerf, I don't think blink change will go through, at least not such drastic change). | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
I've talked about this quite a bit , but is it the problem that Terran haven't come up with a new Meta style in order to combat Protoss or is it because Terran is UP? We saw ForGG try a mech style then get finished off by hero with a proxy gateway, That was heartbreaking as ForGG is one of the most Mechanically sound players in the game to date.... his decision making against Protoss is his failing which is seeming to catch everyone except for polt..... To me it seems crazy Polt is not the Best Micro player or the Macro player but his Decision making / Positioning and methodical approach to each match up seems so good.... So it begs the question is Terran truly UP and imbalanced aginst Protoss or is there a new meta we need to reach as a Race in order to level the playing field.... I guess time will only tell..... | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 17 2014 23:23 Pirfiktshon wrote: So it's very interesting to see Polt get to the finals and I'm sure David Kim is going to use this result as a " Hey Look Terran is ok! See?" I've talked about this quite a bit , but is it the problem that Terran haven't come up with a new Meta style in order to combat Protoss or is it because Terran is UP? We saw ForGG try a mech style then get finished off by hero with a proxy gateway, That was heartbreaking as ForGG is one of the most Mechanically sound players in the game to date.... his decision making against Protoss is his failing which is seeming to catch everyone except for polt..... To me it seems crazy Polt is not the Best Micro player or the Macro player but his Decision making / Positioning and methodical approach to each match up seems so good.... So it begs the question is Terran truly UP and imbalanced aginst Protoss or is there a new meta we need to reach as a Race in order to level the playing field.... I guess time will only tell..... IMO there's a need of some innovation in Build Orders that requires more 'honesty' for the Protoss, so both races enter midgame in a different way. Maybe Polt has figured out the way to do so, or maybe he just made some moves that'll be adapted to soon enough. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 17 2014 23:23 Pirfiktshon wrote: So it's very interesting to see Polt get to the finals and I'm sure David Kim is going to use this result as a " Hey Look Terran is ok! See?" I've talked about this quite a bit , but is it the problem that Terran haven't come up with a new Meta style in order to combat Protoss or is it because Terran is UP? We saw ForGG try a mech style then get finished off by hero with a proxy gateway, That was heartbreaking as ForGG is one of the most Mechanically sound players in the game to date.... his decision making against Protoss is his failing which is seeming to catch everyone except for polt..... To me it seems crazy Polt is not the Best Micro player or the Macro player but his Decision making / Positioning and methodical approach to each match up seems so good.... So it begs the question is Terran truly UP and imbalanced aginst Protoss or is there a new meta we need to reach as a Race in order to level the playing field.... I guess time will only tell..... Also, DK is not asa stupid as people make him out to be. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Also, DK is not asa stupid as people make him out to be. I don't think David Kim is stupid at all actually .... I personally think he is the best Politician this world has ever seen..... Next to bush tbh... Well pretty much making any assumption that Korean Terran players aren't just trying is extremely false.... but at this point in the m/u we need a Hail Mary Pass in the endzone type of Innovation against Protoss.... like Bisu reinventing PvZ good.... right now the match up kinda blows for everyone and even if you can put wins onthe board I don't think there is a single terran soul that is comfortable in any point of hte match up where Protoss just seems like they feel they are in the wheel house and they only have to stabilize and grow to win.... Which was seen quite a few times with Rain against Jjakji all beit he did pull workers which is his pass for a kill but now protoss realize they just have to do the same and they can come out ahead with all that tasty aoe... | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
I think one way to open up for Terran vs Protoss would be that Feedback only damages Biological Units while still draining Energy from all energy units. This way Ravens (well, okay), Medivacs, BCs and similar would not be totally useless when being Feedbacked. Also it would force Protoss drop-defense to increase. For me when I watched Polt vs Hero it seems a bit odd when Polt every now and then (it hapend a few times) loses a full Drop Ship worth of units to a 25 mana-ability cause it has full energy. HT would not change vs Ghost, Viper, Queens, Infestors and similar so only one match up would be effected. | ||
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Dingodile
4132 Posts
This is what I wish for the next patch  | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:29 royalroadweed wrote: Polt sniped FOUR bases. Its pretty easy to stabilize when that happens. Dude I play terran and I fucking love Polt and I don't like TvP, but in my opinion in a game where you lose 60 workers during an attack and almost all your army you shouldn't be able to continue reinforcing, defend the attack, and build a sufficient force to do a multi prong attack leading to the nexus snipes. The fact that he stabilized AFTER sniper the nexus (or whatever the plural is) is fine, the fact that is was able to push after hero's attack isn't. I find it as stupid as chronoed upgrades or units, or as zerg's production capability with little investment in buildings. It's just my opinion, but I think those mechanics are really detrimental to the game. They add some kind of depth but are too hard to control/scout/understand for the players I think. They just lead to "wtfbbq" situations like Polt's comeback in this game. And again I don't want to take anything away from Polt, his play in the whole tournament f*ing mindblew me. | ||
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MacSyndicate
United States3 Posts
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