EPTImmortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 908
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Immortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
For that reason protoss race has that many and good aoe units that are too easy to handle and deal too much splash damage on the clustering units. Any little balance tweak wont fix this, it will just swap the state of who has got the edge in the current meta. What is really needed for this game are more balanced fights where armies can trade more evenly even when one of the players is in a little disadvantageous position (this also applies to zealot/archon vs bio) and players must get the chance to retreat and make up for little mistakes with being able to go on playing a match with a disadvantage instead of an instant lose. This can only be achieved with nerfing bio dps (if not nerfing its mobility), followed up with nerfs for protoss aoe and other units of all races that then don't fit their roles anymore . What blizzard is planning right now with the hydralisks might be beneficial for TvZ but will turn ZvP into the same kind of thing that TvP is (with roach/hydra getting more equal to terran bio). I mean PvZ fights will then be like either P aoe survives and kills all Z units or it dies and the protoss leftovers will get devestated by roach hydra. This is going to create more situations where games are being decided in one fight. The most interesting games are games where one player with a slight disadvantage manages to get back into the game with some intelligent moves. As all players in progaming know how to abuse their race mechanics at its best it is very unlikely that these things happen in the current metagames in a ahead/behind situation. I think a hydra buff still could open up new options and doesn't have to be only bad. It depends on the following patches then. A general thing that blizzard should look at is if they could slightly slow down stuff in general: Income, upgrade durations etc. Z being 200/200 after 14 minutes with certain builds in certain matchups is way too much, protoss being 3-0 after a couple of minutes is just ridiculous. Maybe I am asking too much. Not all games look that bad actually but that is only because these players oftenly manage to stay on par with each other for a long time. Anyway aside from that: Timewarp needs reduction in size and/or in duration or both. Nexus cannon is not that big of a problem I think after the 10 seconds nerf. Protoss ground upgrades need to get an increased duration of research. As protoss anyway can chronoboost this should be legit. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
If you remove AoE from both side, zealots archons are better than marine marauders yo. | ||
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Nimix
France1809 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:12 Nimix wrote: Well that game 4 from hero vs polt shows why sc2 macro mechanics are dumb. Hero killed 60 SCVS quite early and polt was able to stabilize with mules. I really wish they would reconsider chrono, warpgate, mules and injects.. I feel like they don't bring anything really interesting to the game (well, chrono might have strategic value, but also is the reason why protoss all ins and transition are so powerful), and on the opposite cause frustrating/hard to understand situations.. Polt sniped FOUR bases. Its pretty easy to stabilize when that happens. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:09 Faust852 wrote: ^ If you remove AoE from both side, zealots archons are better than marine marauders yo. Not want to remove aoe but want to make it a bit slower to obtain or a bit less strong. Terran bio anyway is not aoe. But I wonder why e.g. hellbats and tanks do not have any role at all in PvT. Most likely in a case where bio got nerfed then zealots would need a nerf as well and the same is true for roaches and others. Blizzard should also think about which unit can be built in which building of protoss and terran. E.g: - helions stay at the factory and can be transformed to hellbats but direct hellbat production could be moved to the barracks. This way we would at least not see marine/maurauder only in every single game. - protoss fenix can be built in both stargate and gateway. The gateway fenix costs 25/25 (with some tech requirement like twilight council) more than the stargate fenix. This way protoss could build a fenix quickly to hunt medivacs and would not lose that easily all his buildings to multiple repating simultanious medivac drops and transforming back warpgates into gateways would make sense at a certain point. ... just some ideas. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:32 LSN wrote: Not want to remove aoe but want to make it a bit slower to obtain or a bit less strong. Terran bio anyway is not aoe. But I wonder why e.g. hellbats and tanks do not have any role at all in PvT. Most likely in a case where bio got nerfed then zealots would need a nerf as well and the same is true for roaches and others. Blizzard should also think about which unit can be built in which building of protoss and terran. E.g: - helions stay at the factory and can be transformed to hellbats but direct hellbat production could be moved to the barracks. This way we would at least not see marine/maurauder only in every single game. - protoss fenix can be built in both stargate and gateway. The gateway fenix costs 25/25 (with some tech requirement like citadel) more than the stargate fenix. This way protoss could build a fenix quickly to hunt medivacs and would not lose that easily all his buildings to multiple repating simultanious medivac drops. ... just some ideas. EMP is quite a good AoE. Some terrans were trying tanks with their bio, but in the end it isn't worth, it starts shooting zealots, who are already close to your army due to charge. Hellbats were used and are still used by some players like forGG who did great recently, but the hellbats nerf was painful still. For the phenix at 25/25 ?? wtf you must be kidding, phenix-colossi is ont of the strongest midgame strat in PvT. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:39 LSN wrote: I meant an extra 25/25 compared to when it is being produced in the stargate missread it sorry, still think Pheonix are too strong to be on gateway. Imagine ZvP, Muta dead. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
As players with high skill can still easily deal with them(WARP PRISM needs another speed buff as well) | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Still you are right this probably would suck. I want to say in general that blizzard should think about moving some units to other buildings to improve matchups like TvP where T is stuck on a very limited range of units compared to protoss that can/must use almost the full arsenal. It would be much nicer to play and watch if terrans actually had more choices to transition into something or not. The same applies to protoss of course. A MSC is always good to build. Why? MSC should have no abilities when it spawns. It should get some quick & cheap upgrades at the nexus that enable its abilities. So protoss has the choice to open the game with or without mothership core and can decide how long they want to cut probe production in order to have which/how many abilities enabled. Same applies to protoss warpgate tech. Protoss should actually have a trade off for using warpins vs usual gateway production. Basically this has been said alread months and years ago. But I still want to emphasize it again as changin this makes sense in a general balance and design point of view and would benefit the game. There is no point in having that many one way roads that require no decision making and trade offs at all. | ||
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Roswell
United States250 Posts
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On February 17 2014 10:53 winthrop wrote: time to increase dark templar and stalker's speed. I think they are too slow and this change won't change really much. As players with high skill can still easily deal with them(WARP PRISM needs another speed buff as well) Ok, anything else? I think HTs are slow aswell.. they could use a massive speed buff! | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On February 17 2014 11:01 Karpfen wrote: Ok, anything else? I think HTs are slow aswell.. they could use a massive speed buff! HTs with Blink obviously. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
lol, might as well give them thermal lance  | ||
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gnr9292
90 Posts
When a zerg or terran leaves their base empty and the enemy attacks they must bring their forces back or have pre-existing static defense (bunker, turret, spine crawlers) however for protoss if harassment or an attack on their empty base is inflicted on them they have numerous options with little negative impact they may warp in some units or use photon overcharge and if they are attacked by a bigger army they can just use recall all of these responses are near immediate, making protoss very difficult to punish | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Why don't get ultralisks slower with +2 armour upgrade? Why don't get marines more expensive with shield ? Why don't get zealots a hitpoint/shield penalty with charge? (these are just examples, not saying that any of these make sense in the current meta) Implementing any such mechanics could increase the quality of the game (when done right). Blizzard didn't want to only copy broodwar. But in fact they keep being stuck on all the old stuff that has been invented 15 years ago without having made any progress (replacing the reaver with a colossus is no progress at all technically). | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On February 17 2014 05:00 ChristianS wrote: Did they ever say their motivation for removing ebay lift back when they made WoL? Not that I think that's a real balance answer, but what exactly was the point? It could be a few things - one I've seen mentioned is that back at the very beginning Zerg overlords were much slower, Protoss didn't have msc or free hallucination so the possibilities of using a 125 min 30 second ebay to scout may have seemed more unfair at the time, another could be simply that there wasn't a compelling design reason to make it lift, barracks/factory/starport all have add-on's and the CC lifting differentiating Terran expands from Protoss seems to fit in Dustin Browder's motif of making every race as different as possible (basically everything that produces units can lift, barring planetary), and as mentioned in this thread it provides cohesion with the armory not being able to float. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
increase micro requirement for zealots. make ghosts weaker and cheaper. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On February 17 2014 06:59 Morbidius wrote: After seeing that JD vs herO game 5... i think it might be time to undo this change: Immortal: Attack range increased from 5 to 6. No. Hydras lost that game. When ahead JD invested huge amount of resources into a crappy unit and lost promptly. Hydra was a crap unit from the start of SC2 and was made even crappier as a AA unit in HotS. About time something is done. I really hope for LotV there is a bigger change planned then 0.08 boost in attack speed... | ||
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