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On March 12 2014 18:06 IMPrime wrote:
MSC is really the problem to more or less everything. More specifically it's photon overcharge. (Time warps are also stupid but at least there's some semblance of skill in knowing when and where to throw down the time warp. Photon overcharge is so easy a caveman could do it).
pvt Blink all-ins are strong, but if it fails, tosses have photon overcharge to defend from counterattacks until they get splash damage done. They're still in an uphill battle but the terran is just one bad engagement away from losing the game. Without photon overcharge, the toss would just die if the all-in doesn't work, just like what should happen when zerg or terran all-ins don't work. But Protoss is the least-punished race when it comes to failed all-ins.
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs.
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On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs.
When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete.
Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in.
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On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in.
Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail.
The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing.
What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2).
TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin.
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On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2).
I guess that the problem many people have is that toss has builds that demand huge preparation from the defender and have the strength of an all-inn while being simply "pressure" builds that can be turned into all-inn or just macro-builds.
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On March 13 2014 01:27 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). I guess that the problem many people have is that toss has builds that demand huge preparation from the defender and have the strength of an all-inn while being simply "pressure" builds that can be turned into all-inn or just macro-builds.
So you just keep an eye on the Stalker count and see if he stops at 5 or if he keeps adding Stalkers.
It's the same when you're playing PvZ and the Z goes Muta. Or if you're going TvZ and the Z goes Roaches. You need to know if he's committing to that tech and how hard you need to counter it or if he's just making a few and doing something else behind it.
Both Neeb and Illusion were able to handle this very well yesterday. This mass Marauder Widow mine style looks really strong against Blink into Templar openings. Let's see how higher level foreign and Korean players deal with it as they get used to the patch. On the whole I feel like Terrans are starting to adapt and getting better.
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On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin.
you just describe exactly why early blink was so OP... The Protoss could see pretty much everything the Terran was doing and THEN decide whether he wanted to warp in additional stalkers (which arrive instantly due to warp gate) and go for the all-in.
When Zergs go for roach bane, they have to make the roaches before they know how many bunkers/tanks the Terran has. When Terrans go for mass bf hellions, they have to make the hellions before seeing how many Queens and roaches are out. Imagine if Terran could just get 6 bf hellions to poke at the Zerg base and see that the Zerg skipped the roach warren so only had Queen's and lings to defend, and then decide to instantly warp in 8 more bf hellions. Don't you think that would be pretty OP?
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On March 13 2014 01:38 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin. you just describe exactly why early blink was so OP... The Protoss could see pretty much everything the Terran was doing and THEN decide whether he wanted to warp in additional stalkers (which arrive instantly due to warp gate) and go for the all-in. When Zergs go for roach bane, they have to make the roaches before they know how many bunkers/tanks the Terran has. When Terrans go for mass bf hellions, they have to make the hellions before seeing how many Queens and roaches are out. Imagine if Terran could just get 6 bf hellions to poke at the Zerg base and see that the Zerg skipped the roach warren so only had Queen's and lings to defend, and then decide to instantly warp in 8 more bf hellions. Don't you think that would be pretty OP?
The combination of the maps and the high vision of the MsC made this strong, I agree. But I was just commenting on Photon Overcharge. I think if a Blink allin fails, PO is just not enough to defend a counter push. That was my point. And we saw that in yesterday's games.
If the Protoss never commits because he scouts etc. etc. then that's a different topic. But right now with the MsC it's a lot harder to see into the Terran base. 5 range (the reduction) is the range of a Marine. So now to see the same thing you have to literally be on top of Marines shooting at you. Only time will tell if this nerf is enough to make things fair.
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On March 13 2014 01:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:27 RaFox17 wrote:On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). I guess that the problem many people have is that toss has builds that demand huge preparation from the defender and have the strength of an all-inn while being simply "pressure" builds that can be turned into all-inn or just macro-builds. So you just keep an eye on the Stalker count and see if he stops at 5 or if he keeps adding Stalkers. It's the same when you're playing PvZ and the Z goes Muta. Or if you're going TvZ and the Z goes Roaches. You need to know if he's committing to that tech and how hard you need to counter it or if he's just making a few and doing something else behind it. Both Neeb and Illusion were able to handle this very well yesterday. This mass Marauder Widow mine style looks really strong against Blink into Templar openings. Let's see how higher level foreign and Korean players deal with it as they get used to the patch. On the whole I feel like Terrans are starting to adapt and getting better.
And Terran poke at the front of the Zergs base to check for roaches in the early game. Unfortunately in TvP, you can't poke the front with marines because 2-3 stalker can kite marines to death. And it is also harder to keep track of stalker count since they can be warped in anywhere, and once they are warped in, the Protoss pretty much blinks in. It isn't like roach bane where the roaches still have to walk across the map and lings have morph into banes.
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On March 13 2014 01:38 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin. you just describe exactly why early blink was so OP... The Protoss could see pretty much everything the Terran was doing and THEN decide whether he wanted to warp in additional stalkers (which arrive instantly due to warp gate) and go for the all-in. When Zergs go for roach bane, they have to make the roaches before they know how many bunkers/tanks the Terran has. When Terrans go for mass bf hellions, they have to make the hellions before seeing how many Queens and roaches are out. Imagine if Terran could just get 6 bf hellions to poke at the Zerg base and see that the Zerg skipped the roach warren so only had Queen's and lings to defend, and then decide to instantly warp in 8 more bf hellions. Don't you think that would be pretty OP?
you just describe exactly why early warpgate tech is so stupidly designed.
/edit
Also, Dinomight - are you seriously saying that an all-in that does not do crippling damage is not a failed all-in? Because the other races' all-ins work that way.
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On March 13 2014 01:50 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:38 vthree wrote:On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin. you just describe exactly why early blink was so OP... The Protoss could see pretty much everything the Terran was doing and THEN decide whether he wanted to warp in additional stalkers (which arrive instantly due to warp gate) and go for the all-in. When Zergs go for roach bane, they have to make the roaches before they know how many bunkers/tanks the Terran has. When Terrans go for mass bf hellions, they have to make the hellions before seeing how many Queens and roaches are out. Imagine if Terran could just get 6 bf hellions to poke at the Zerg base and see that the Zerg skipped the roach warren so only had Queen's and lings to defend, and then decide to instantly warp in 8 more bf hellions. Don't you think that would be pretty OP? you just describe exactly why early warpgate tech is so stupidly designed. /edit Also, Dinomight - are you seriously saying that an all-in that does not do crippling damage is not a failed all-in? Because the other races' all-ins work that way.
If an allin fails and you can transition out of it, then it is no allin by definition, no?
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On March 13 2014 01:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 01:50 plogamer wrote:On March 13 2014 01:38 vthree wrote:On March 13 2014 01:19 DinoMight wrote:On March 13 2014 00:37 BurningRanger wrote:On March 12 2014 22:47 DinoMight wrote:
I think you're missing the point of these "failed blink-allins." What you're not getting is that they're not actually failed allins. The scenario you're referring to where the Protoss goes back and defends off of Photon Overcharge while they get splash is just not possible with a failed blink allin (meaning the Protoss actually produced a lot of Stalkers and lost them trying to allin). What you're talking about is a scenario where a Protoss just makes 5 Stalkers with Blink and walks across the map but doesnt necessarily warp in more Stalkers and attack.
Generally what happens is the Protoss makes a few Stalkers with Blink walks over to the Terran's base, and then tries to judge whether or not they can win. Minigun vs. Neeb Game 2 from yesterday is a perfect example. This was not a "blink allin" per se. It was just 5 or so Stalkers with Blink. Had he seen an opening, he could have warped in more Stalkers and allined. But Neeb was well defended. So he made zero additional Stalkers and teched straight to Colossus.
If Minigun had added Stalkers and tried to push there's no way he would have had the units necessary to defend, even with Photon Overcharge. See Has vs. Bomber from WCS NA on Heavy Rain. An actual failed allin can't transition into anything.
I'd say its similar to when Zerg makes a couple of roaches to fend off Hellions. If they push the Hellions back to the Terran base and the Zerg stops there, it's not a Roach allin (even though it forces the Terran to defend accordingly unless he has perfect scouting). If the Zerg sees an opening he can flood Roaches. Then it becomes allin-ish.
TLDR simply making 5 Stalkers with Blink and walking across the map is NOT a Blink Allin. Warping in a high number of Blink Stalkers, blinking into the main and trying to win the game there IS an allin. There is a difference between the two. The first is fine, and transitioning into splash is normal. The latter is an allin, and if it fails no amount of Photon Overcharge can help vs. stimmed bio with medivacs. When talking about the Has vs Bomber WCS NA game I guess you mean WCS NA 2014 Ro32 Group D Game1 on Heavy Rain, right? I looked it up, because I couldn't imagine how a Blink all-in can't transition into anything, and it's really a bad example. Has "transitions" from cheese to cheese, starting with proxy Oracle, which fails, into proxy Twilight for a Blink all-in, which is so late that it has to fail, into proxy Dark Shrine, which does too little damage, into finally getting run over by a lot of units (actually it wouldn't have mattered which ones). The casters even joke about that Has would probably proxy a Robo somewhere else on the map to make the list of cheeses complete. Honestly a Blink all-in (I'd still rather call it a push or cheese, because it's no all-in), even if the Protoss commits to it as you described above with warping in more than 5 Stalkers, usually does enough damage to make PO strong enough to hold off any counter attack or keeps the Terran contained long enough to get a decent tech and/or number of units up to hold an eventual attack. And that's exactly the point where a Blink all-in is actually not an all-in. It's a cheese, yes, but no all-in. Maybe that's a bad example because of the many tech routes he went, but it's the most recent one I could think of where he actually tries to execute the allin and fails. Look at Bomber vs Has G3 on Habitation Station then. Has takes the Gold base and goes for a warpgate all-in. Which Bomber reacts properly to. There is absolutely no way for Has to make any comeback after that fail. The point I'm trying to make is if the Protoss player actually commits to the allin and fails, Photon Overcharge doesn't help defending the counter push because by that time stim and medivacs are out and there is no AoE. See minigun vs. Illusion. Counterpush with widow mines and Stim bio destroys Minigun and Photon Overcharge does next to nothing. What you and others seem to be referring to is something that looks like it could be an allin but actually isn't. 5 Stalkers with Blink is not committal. Stalkers are expensive units (125/50) and it's hard to get a very high number of them (enough to win) while ALSO getting splash. Usually what happens is that they prepare for a Blink allin by researching Blink early, but then upon scouting the Terran preparing for it, they don't follow through with the allin and just go for splash, leaving a few Stalkers outside the T base to fake pressure and hopefully cause an overreaction (see Minigun vs. Neeb G2). TLDR a Blink allin with the Stalker count necessary to actually kill the Terran cannot easily transition out of something if it fails. Simply making 5 Blink Stalkers and putting them outside the Terran base while you get Colossus or Storm is not a Blink allin. you just describe exactly why early blink was so OP... The Protoss could see pretty much everything the Terran was doing and THEN decide whether he wanted to warp in additional stalkers (which arrive instantly due to warp gate) and go for the all-in. When Zergs go for roach bane, they have to make the roaches before they know how many bunkers/tanks the Terran has. When Terrans go for mass bf hellions, they have to make the hellions before seeing how many Queens and roaches are out. Imagine if Terran could just get 6 bf hellions to poke at the Zerg base and see that the Zerg skipped the roach warren so only had Queen's and lings to defend, and then decide to instantly warp in 8 more bf hellions. Don't you think that would be pretty OP? you just describe exactly why early warpgate tech is so stupidly designed. /edit Also, Dinomight - are you seriously saying that an all-in that does not do crippling damage is not a failed all-in? Because the other races' all-ins work that way. If an allin fails and you can transition out of it, then it is no allin by definition, no?
Then it's overpowered. Because it still has all the offensive strength of other races' all-ins.
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I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin)
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Northern Ireland27272 Posts
It's that the Terran cannot know which variant is coming, and have to defend for the worst case scenario which holds back their midgame.
Anyway, as far as I can tell it's not quite as big a deal as it was pre-patch, with widowmines being more potent defensively and also useful as part of an aggressive midgame too so it's altering a bit of the dynamic of the matchup.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
David Kim is doing an AMA on Reddit today if anyone wants to ask him balance questions.
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On March 13 2014 02:17 iHirO wrote:David Kim is doing an AMA on Reddit today if anyone wants to ask him balance questions.
I don't think we should give this sort of thing any attention, it's not like David Kim will actually say something concrete.
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Especially if all the questions are "when are you nerfing Swarm Hosts" and "Warpgate OP forcefield OP."
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On March 12 2014 21:29 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 21:12 Jerom wrote:
I must say I really like the latest patch. Terrans seem to be doing much better now. Maybe PvT lategame might still be a problem though.. I feel like the answer to that is buffing the hellbat in some way, but I can't think of a way that won't bring us back to hellbat drops all over again. I can; expensive/lategame upgrade.
yeah maybe.. I'm not really sure, I just feel like the real problem is that you need to research an upgrade for them to be useful. Ideally I'd balance it so that you wouldn't have to research an upgrade for them to be useful against protoss..
A good start would be removing the bio tag that makes them so vulnerable against Archons I suppose.
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On March 13 2014 04:04 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 21:29 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 12 2014 21:12 Jerom wrote:
I must say I really like the latest patch. Terrans seem to be doing much better now. Maybe PvT lategame might still be a problem though.. I feel like the answer to that is buffing the hellbat in some way, but I can't think of a way that won't bring us back to hellbat drops all over again. I can; expensive/lategame upgrade. yeah maybe.. I'm not really sure, I just feel like the real problem is that you need to research an upgrade for them to be useful. Ideally I'd balance it so that you wouldn't have to research an upgrade for them to be useful against protoss.. A good start would be removing the bio tag that makes them so vulnerable against Archons I suppose.
But then you can't heal them. Is that a compromise you'd be willing to make to make mech better? Top Terrans have been mixing them in vs. Zerg in their bio compositions too.. that would suffer a bit.
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On March 13 2014 04:04 Jerom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 21:29 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 12 2014 21:12 Jerom wrote:
I must say I really like the latest patch. Terrans seem to be doing much better now. Maybe PvT lategame might still be a problem though.. I feel like the answer to that is buffing the hellbat in some way, but I can't think of a way that won't bring us back to hellbat drops all over again. I can; expensive/lategame upgrade. yeah maybe.. I'm not really sure, I just feel like the real problem is that you need to research an upgrade for them to be useful. Ideally I'd balance it so that you wouldn't have to research an upgrade for them to be useful against protoss.. A good start would be removing the bio tag that makes them so vulnerable against Archons I suppose.
They are not useful early on, because at that time you will usually not face the mass zealot. Making them useful early on is counterintuitive, that would mean they are useful against players that mostly use stalkers, FFs, an MsC or an oracle.
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On March 13 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:
I don't even know what's being argued here anymore. The conversation is deteriorating into "everything OP" and "warpgate is stupid" again.
Making 5 Blink Stalkers and placing them on your opponent's side of the map not attacking anything is not an allin. Why should this be allin?
If you don't warp in additional Stalkers, you can't kill the Terran, but you can transition. (not allin)
If you warp in additional Stalkers, you can try to kill the Terran, but it's much harder to transition. (allin)
You're arguing too much black and white. If the Protoss commits to warping in Stalker after Stalker and doesn't manage to break the Terran before he finally got Medivacs out and has a decent number of units left, then yes, it's an all-in that failed and the Protoss loses, I give you that. You can't just throw a number like 5 out there as if it was the only alternative to above all-in though.
I guess you know that the Protoss can just as well, warp in another 4 or 8 (e.g. from 4 Gates) or how many he pleases and try with those. He is always free to disengage with some Stalkers blinking away again, which then however doesn't need to be the end of the aggression, but just a retreat to come back with more very quickly (more warpins). He can also decide to just fake a contain and expand. The Terran doesn't know for sure. You can't scan, if he warped in more, because you may need the resources for defensive units. You can't check with units, because they can be killed with just seeing the ones that blunk away AND they may be missing in defense then. The Protoss may even expand not at the natural to hide that he expanded.
The "warpgate is stupid" argument is brought up again (even though Blizzard will never change it), because it is also part of the problem. Both the warpin mechanic and Blink are methods that nullify the defenders advantage. Warpin nullifies the advantage of faster reinforcement than the attacker. Blink nullifies the defenders advantage of choosing the position to defend (on maps that allow Blink ins certainly).
This however is not about "everything OP", but the Blink push/cheese together with the ability to fall back to PO defense is problematic.
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EPT
