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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 930

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_Epi_
Profile Joined February 2014
Germany158 Posts
March 20 2014 14:55 GMT
#18581
On March 20 2014 18:17 drkcid wrote:
IMHO, the balance in TvP should be more-less: (-> : "countered by")

Bio -> Gateway + HT -> Mech -> Gateway+Robo -> WM+Bio -> gateway + colosus -> Viking Bio -> Gateway+HT ->......

You can make some variations in compositions (especially with air units) to improve your power, to make a easier tech switch or not to be hard countered, and that´s how TvP should be balanced in my opinion.
I don´t think that smart cast storms are a problem, they are good against Bio death ball as they should be, the problem comes when mech is weak and can be destroyed with storms too.

So, if WM can do extra damage vs shields (balance against P only), storms can make LESS damage to T mech (balance against T only). Maybe it won´t solve TvP issues but at least it will force some tech switch.


The problem with HT vs mech is Feedback, at least if you try to go air. Without air support mech will just die to protoss because of archons and immortals being silly strong
Deleted User 261926
Profile Joined April 2012
960 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-20 14:58:50
March 20 2014 14:56 GMT
#18582
On March 20 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
My only annoyance with Mutalisks is the regeneration.
Why was it needed in the first place? What was wrong with Mutas in WoL?

On top of Blinding Cloud it completely killed Marine/Tank, which I found a lot more fun to watch than Widow Mines.
Partially feels like Blizzard wanted to push (if not force) Terran players to use their shiny new unit rather than tanks.

Blinding Cloud itself also is just frustrating because it's another pure hard counter like the Immortal.
I would've preferred that it reduced range by 50% but would stick to Biological units for 2-3 seconds after they leave the cloud.
That way Siege Tanks aren't hard countered into the ground and casting it on mobile units actually does something.

Can I ask which league you play in?

To give an answer:
1-To keep up with medivacs and to make up for the infestor's death (well, I am exagerating, it's still a good unit but you get my point).
2-Mines killed marine tank, I doubt many players would make vipers vs marine tank right now as they are hard to reach, slow and you have mutas.
3-Blinding cloud is not game breaking if you spread your tanks appropriately. We can't say that terran hasn't got more/as annoying stuff in its arsenal like PDD.
Roswell
Profile Joined November 2013
United States250 Posts
March 20 2014 14:58 GMT
#18583
Why doesnt blizzard just give small buffs to worthless units? It wont affect pro games but I'd like to use cooler units in 2v2s.
"You are the bravest boy I have ever met"
ciox
Profile Joined March 2011
58 Posts
March 20 2014 15:09 GMT
#18584
On March 20 2014 23:46 Grumbels wrote:
I wonder how the game would look like with templar having a psionic attack based on fire wall to replace storm.

A lot like having extra Colossi that require energy to attack IMO unless the spell lasts a long time.
Of the others only Lightning might be interesting, since Meteor is just storms with a huge delay and Nova doesn't quite work because spellcasters are usually too fragile to let enemy units surround them.. unless they're Battlecruisers or something.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-20 15:37:02
March 20 2014 15:35 GMT
#18585
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-20 16:07:08
March 20 2014 16:05 GMT
#18586
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).

Still I dislike blink allins, and how blizzard wants to adress them. There would be much better ways that don't influence most macro builds without limiting mapmakers. While the result for the macro blinkgameplay itself is the same => it will be weaker. Hell, it's probably going to be weaker if you can't blink into a base in the lategame because no cliff exists, than when you just nerf the timing (like extra Twilight build time) or add a tiny extra requirment to the blink research (like you need a forge; you need a warpgate; you need a robo; just pick the one the Protoss players can agree with the most).
Though we don't even know about the mapchanges yet, maybe they will be tiny and blink/MsC will just stay the Immortal/Sentry "haha, I don't want to play a macrogame against you and can still have a great winrate" of TvP.
EthanS
Profile Joined February 2011
United States206 Posts
March 20 2014 16:08 GMT
#18587
How do you design main-natural-thirds to be scoutable* and attackable, but not "blink-all-in"-able?

You could leave lots of airspace and chasms on three sides of the main, but is it just the cliff sides that let the "all-in"** gambit work? I see three possibilities and I'm honestly not sure:
1. lots of exposed cliff space away from the natural is allowing "surprise" blink ups. E.g., the long cliff btwn 3d and Main on Heavy Rain. Lots of recent maps in the WIP thread are addressing this, similar to Habitation Station's doodad chasm.
2. the position of the main ramp, perhaps too close to the front and therefore allowing sentries to forcefield and split or trap terran army? See Frost, Heavy Rain, and Yeonsu.
3. the presence of a large landing pad above the choke at the natural. So if P parks just outside the natural, they can threaten to move forward into natural or blink up to the main? Looking here at Polar Night and Heavy Rain, much less on Yeonsu, and non-existent on Daedalus.

Blizzard just said on b.net that they are looking at revising maps for next season to reduce strength of blink play. It'd be good if we knew how to do that without overdoing it.

*I assume scoutable means "able to be entered by reapers" bc Z,P scout w/ ovie or obs/halluc, and we don't want to force T to scan.
**Yes, its not really an all-in. That's the problem...
EthanS
Profile Joined February 2011
United States206 Posts
March 20 2014 16:12 GMT
#18588
On March 20 2014 23:55 _Epi_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 18:17 drkcid wrote:
IMHO, the balance in TvP should be more-less: (-> : "countered by")

Bio -> Gateway + HT -> Mech -> Gateway+Robo -> WM+Bio -> gateway + colosus -> Viking Bio -> Gateway+HT ->......

You can make some variations in compositions (especially with air units) to improve your power, to make a easier tech switch or not to be hard countered, and that´s how TvP should be balanced in my opinion.
I don´t think that smart cast storms are a problem, they are good against Bio death ball as they should be, the problem comes when mech is weak and can be destroyed with storms too.

So, if WM can do extra damage vs shields (balance against P only), storms can make LESS damage to T mech (balance against T only). Maybe it won´t solve TvP issues but at least it will force some tech switch.


The problem with HT vs mech is Feedback, at least if you try to go air. Without air support mech will just die to protoss because of archons and immortals being silly strong


Wasnt that the stated rationale for the Ghost buff - its anti-HT, and therefore allows more late-game mech?
_Epi_
Profile Joined February 2014
Germany158 Posts
March 20 2014 16:18 GMT
#18589
On March 21 2014 01:12 EthanS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 23:55 _Epi_ wrote:
On March 20 2014 18:17 drkcid wrote:
IMHO, the balance in TvP should be more-less: (-> : "countered by")

Bio -> Gateway + HT -> Mech -> Gateway+Robo -> WM+Bio -> gateway + colosus -> Viking Bio -> Gateway+HT ->......

You can make some variations in compositions (especially with air units) to improve your power, to make a easier tech switch or not to be hard countered, and that´s how TvP should be balanced in my opinion.
I don´t think that smart cast storms are a problem, they are good against Bio death ball as they should be, the problem comes when mech is weak and can be destroyed with storms too.

So, if WM can do extra damage vs shields (balance against P only), storms can make LESS damage to T mech (balance against T only). Maybe it won´t solve TvP issues but at least it will force some tech switch.


The problem with HT vs mech is Feedback, at least if you try to go air. Without air support mech will just die to protoss because of archons and immortals being silly strong


Wasnt that the stated rationale for the Ghost buff - its anti-HT, and therefore allows more late-game mech?


Well that may be, but i never saw anybody making this work
I really would love to see it happen, chargelots+ht vs bio is utterly boring to watch
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
March 20 2014 16:22 GMT
#18590
On March 20 2014 23:56 Karpfen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 18:01 Thezzy wrote:
My only annoyance with Mutalisks is the regeneration.
Why was it needed in the first place? What was wrong with Mutas in WoL?

On top of Blinding Cloud it completely killed Marine/Tank, which I found a lot more fun to watch than Widow Mines.
Partially feels like Blizzard wanted to push (if not force) Terran players to use their shiny new unit rather than tanks.

Blinding Cloud itself also is just frustrating because it's another pure hard counter like the Immortal.
I would've preferred that it reduced range by 50% but would stick to Biological units for 2-3 seconds after they leave the cloud.
That way Siege Tanks aren't hard countered into the ground and casting it on mobile units actually does something.

Can I ask which league you play in?

To give an answer:
1-To keep up with medivacs and to make up for the infestor's death (well, I am exagerating, it's still a good unit but you get my point).
2-Mines killed marine tank, I doubt many players would make vipers vs marine tank right now as they are hard to reach, slow and you have mutas.
3-Blinding cloud is not game breaking if you spread your tanks appropriately. We can't say that terran hasn't got more/as annoying stuff in its arsenal like PDD.


Sure, I'm bouncing between Platinum/Diamond (depends on how much I play, which varies) so it might just be me .
Keeping up with Medivacs explains the speed boost, though the regeneration remains a strange change for me.
I suppose splitting the tanks up more would help but doing so but won't they be easier to snipe for the mutas?

I'd use Ghosts against Vipers if I could but with 151 health (150 + 1 health regen since Snipe isn't instant) it takes four Snipes and EMP would have to be spammed a lot (and then Zerg can sends them to build energy from Evos back home).
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
March 20 2014 16:23 GMT
#18591
On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).

Still I dislike blink allins, and how blizzard wants to adress them. There would be much better ways that don't influence most macro builds without limiting mapmakers. While the result for the macro blinkgameplay itself is the same => it will be weaker. Hell, it's probably going to be weaker if you can't blink into a base in the lategame because no cliff exists, than when you just nerf the timing (like extra Twilight build time) or add a tiny extra requirment to the blink research (like you need a forge; you need a warpgate; you need a robo; just pick the one the Protoss players can agree with the most).
Though we don't even know about the mapchanges yet, maybe they will be tiny and blink/MsC will just stay the Immortal/Sentry "haha, I don't want to play a macrogame against you and can still have a great winrate" of TvP.


Lol, 2 pro Protoss players that are in Ro4 in the GSL whining about Terran. How is that more telling then dozen of high level Terrans have been complaining about Protoss over the past few months.

As for ladder win rates, everytime Terran used ladder to point to Protoss OP, Protoss here just say that Protoss is suppose to be better in Bo1s due to all-ins... So NOW you want to use ladder results...
Djangoobie
Profile Joined February 2014
13 Posts
March 20 2014 16:27 GMT
#18592
On March 20 2014 08:18 Velvet_Llama wrote:
So this is just something that popped into my head while I was eating this delicious sandwich, haven't had time to think it through much. What if the mothership core was changed so that it had to stay within a certain distance of a nexus or it rapidly loses energy?

I know one of the complaints about it is that is able to fulfill too many functions- it's a scout, it gives vision for blinks, it's a powerful spell caster, ect ect. If it ran out of energy when leaving a toss base, might that force the Protoss player to use it more as either a good scout/early game harass unit OR use it as an early game defensive unit? You'd still be able to use it to scout and gain vision, but you wouldn't be able to throw out time warps and recall. Or you could leave it home and use photon overcharge and time warp defensively. I guess this would essentially eliminate the recall ability.

What do you guys think, any merit to this?


I think it's an awesome idea. This way also PvP games will normalize in length. Would also be cool if Chrono could be spent to affect the energy regen rate in combination with your idea. This way if the Protoss wants to move out with the MSC and do an "all-in" it will have an impact on its economy or tech.

An idea about the issue with Ravens just popped in my head:
What if the Raven itself turned into stationary "Point Defense Mode". Similar to a transformation mode when the warp prism has to turn into to warp in units.
Because it's stationary it will be easier to target. Also zergs can attack unprotected zones easier, because the Raven has to become unstationary first. Its energy should deplete from itself, but not as rapid as a normal PDD.
Zergs could also use blinding clouds to reduce it's range, but not by large amounts as blinding clouds on siege tanks.

I believe that blizzard will add the "Science Vessel" in LotV to support mech play more. But I'm afraid meching Terrans will get a bit too powerful vs Zerg if they don't change the Raven by then.
royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
March 20 2014 17:01 GMT
#18593
On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).


Whats really telling is that one of the high level protosses said that even without widow mines terran is overpowered like Bl/infestor in WOL.
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
March 20 2014 17:02 GMT
#18594
On March 21 2014 01:12 EthanS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 23:55 _Epi_ wrote:
On March 20 2014 18:17 drkcid wrote:
IMHO, the balance in TvP should be more-less: (-> : "countered by")

Bio -> Gateway + HT -> Mech -> Gateway+Robo -> WM+Bio -> gateway + colosus -> Viking Bio -> Gateway+HT ->......

You can make some variations in compositions (especially with air units) to improve your power, to make a easier tech switch or not to be hard countered, and that´s how TvP should be balanced in my opinion.
I don´t think that smart cast storms are a problem, they are good against Bio death ball as they should be, the problem comes when mech is weak and can be destroyed with storms too.

So, if WM can do extra damage vs shields (balance against P only), storms can make LESS damage to T mech (balance against T only). Maybe it won´t solve TvP issues but at least it will force some tech switch.


The problem with HT vs mech is Feedback, at least if you try to go air. Without air support mech will just die to protoss because of archons and immortals being silly strong


Wasnt that the stated rationale for the Ghost buff - its anti-HT, and therefore allows more late-game mech?


The rationale for the Ghost buff was Terrans are losing a lot to Protoss and bitching so throw them a bone until we figure out something.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
March 20 2014 17:07 GMT
#18595
On March 21 2014 01:27 Djangoobie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2014 08:18 Velvet_Llama wrote:
So this is just something that popped into my head while I was eating this delicious sandwich, haven't had time to think it through much. What if the mothership core was changed so that it had to stay within a certain distance of a nexus or it rapidly loses energy?

I know one of the complaints about it is that is able to fulfill too many functions- it's a scout, it gives vision for blinks, it's a powerful spell caster, ect ect. If it ran out of energy when leaving a toss base, might that force the Protoss player to use it more as either a good scout/early game harass unit OR use it as an early game defensive unit? You'd still be able to use it to scout and gain vision, but you wouldn't be able to throw out time warps and recall. Or you could leave it home and use photon overcharge and time warp defensively. I guess this would essentially eliminate the recall ability.

What do you guys think, any merit to this?


I think it's an awesome idea. This way also PvP games will normalize in length. Would also be cool if Chrono could be spent to affect the energy regen rate in combination with your idea. This way if the Protoss wants to move out with the MSC and do an "all-in" it will have an impact on its economy or tech.

An idea about the issue with Ravens just popped in my head:
What if the Raven itself turned into stationary "Point Defense Mode". Similar to a transformation mode when the warp prism has to turn into to warp in units.
Because it's stationary it will be easier to target. Also zergs can attack unprotected zones easier, because the Raven has to become unstationary first. Its energy should deplete from itself, but not as rapid as a normal PDD.
Zergs could also use blinding clouds to reduce it's range, but not by large amounts as blinding clouds on siege tanks.

I believe that blizzard will add the "Science Vessel" in LotV to support mech play more. But I'm afraid meching Terrans will get a bit too powerful vs Zerg if they don't change the Raven by then.


I think the MsC idea is bad. One of the stated goals of the unit is to give P more mobility and freedom to roam the map w/recall available because in WoL P was often just pinned in its base with limited retreating capability. This is primarily in PvZ.

Stationary Ravens would be imba vs. Protoss because they'd just get fedbacked. When Protoss uses a Feedback on a PDD at least Terran gets to keep the raven. So you're trading energy for energy. If Terran had to lose a Raven anytime they wanted to PDD it would be a big nerf.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
March 20 2014 17:07 GMT
#18596
On March 21 2014 01:23 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).

Still I dislike blink allins, and how blizzard wants to adress them. There would be much better ways that don't influence most macro builds without limiting mapmakers. While the result for the macro blinkgameplay itself is the same => it will be weaker. Hell, it's probably going to be weaker if you can't blink into a base in the lategame because no cliff exists, than when you just nerf the timing (like extra Twilight build time) or add a tiny extra requirment to the blink research (like you need a forge; you need a warpgate; you need a robo; just pick the one the Protoss players can agree with the most).
Though we don't even know about the mapchanges yet, maybe they will be tiny and blink/MsC will just stay the Immortal/Sentry "haha, I don't want to play a macrogame against you and can still have a great winrate" of TvP.


Lol, 2 pro Protoss players that are in Ro4 in the GSL whining about Terran. How is that more telling then dozen of high level Terrans have been complaining about Protoss over the past few months.

As for ladder win rates, everytime Terran used ladder to point to Protoss OP, Protoss here just say that Protoss is suppose to be better in Bo1s due to all-ins... So NOW you want to use ladder results...


These kind of arguments are being ignored directly because you can't really argue with that.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 20 2014 17:18 GMT
#18597
I don't know if the ghost buff was really necessary. What if parade pushes with bio mine are very strong and then can be augmented with an effortless transition to the same type of push with ghosts? or with scv's? It wouldn't surprise me if terran all-in potential is quite strong now. And of course Blizzard will never revert changes.

Protoss still has a lot of power with oracles, proxies and blink stalkers though.

I don't think it's good design for there to be only one pivot moment in the game, where the relative strength of the two races changes. I think David Kim said this: they want to introduce more "timing moments" in the game where one race has the initiative, and I'm not sure if that's a bad idea. You see this in Brood War a lot: dragoons come out, then marine range comes out, then dragoon range, then siege tanks, then siege mode, then reavers; and so the landscape changes and there are different rules. But in Starcraft 2 I sometimes suspect that it's more like: protoss strong early game, terran strong midgame, protoss strong late-game, and it lacks subtlety. (exaggerating)
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Wingblade
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1806 Posts
March 20 2014 17:21 GMT
#18598
On March 21 2014 02:07 Faust852 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2014 01:23 vthree wrote:
On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).

Still I dislike blink allins, and how blizzard wants to adress them. There would be much better ways that don't influence most macro builds without limiting mapmakers. While the result for the macro blinkgameplay itself is the same => it will be weaker. Hell, it's probably going to be weaker if you can't blink into a base in the lategame because no cliff exists, than when you just nerf the timing (like extra Twilight build time) or add a tiny extra requirment to the blink research (like you need a forge; you need a warpgate; you need a robo; just pick the one the Protoss players can agree with the most).
Though we don't even know about the mapchanges yet, maybe they will be tiny and blink/MsC will just stay the Immortal/Sentry "haha, I don't want to play a macrogame against you and can still have a great winrate" of TvP.


Lol, 2 pro Protoss players that are in Ro4 in the GSL whining about Terran. How is that more telling then dozen of high level Terrans have been complaining about Protoss over the past few months.

As for ladder win rates, everytime Terran used ladder to point to Protoss OP, Protoss here just say that Protoss is suppose to be better in Bo1s due to all-ins... So NOW you want to use ladder results...


These kind of arguments are being ignored directly because you can't really argue with that.


Also, Terran isn't stronger because of all-ins. One of the biggest complaints is that they can't all in. The random bo1 format doesn't favor Terran. If they still dominate the ladder, then it's easier to claim that there is an issue.
PartinG fanboy to the max, Rain/Squirtle/Dear/Scarlett/Bbyong are cool too. I don't always watch Dota2 but when I do I have no clue what's going on. GOGO POWER RANGERS
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-20 17:26:44
March 20 2014 17:23 GMT
#18599
On March 21 2014 02:18 Grumbels wrote:
I don't know if the ghost buff was really necessary. What if parade pushes with bio mine are very strong and then can be augmented with an effortless transition to the same type of push with ghosts? or with scv's? It wouldn't surprise me if terran all-in potential is quite strong now. And of course Blizzard will never revert changes.

Protoss still has a lot of power with oracles, proxies and blink stalkers though.

I don't think it's good design for there to be only one pivot moment in the game, where the relative strength of the two races changes. I think David Kim said this: they want to introduce more "timing moments" in the game where one race has the initiative, and I'm not sure if that's a bad idea. You see this in Brood War a lot: dragoons come out, then marine range comes out, then dragoon range, then siege tanks, then siege mode, then reavers; and so the landscape changes and there are different rules. But in Starcraft 2 I sometimes suspect that it's more like: protoss strong early game, terran strong midgame, protoss strong late-game, and it lacks subtlety. (exaggerating)


Well assuming neither side tries to end the game with an allin, it's something like:

Protoss until stim
Terran until colo/storm
Protoss until ghosts/vikings
Terran until *the other aoe
Protoss until *the other anti-aeo
Even

Cheese/allins try to abuse numbers, mobility, detection, etc. to circumvent this.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Qwerty85
Profile Joined June 2012
Croatia5536 Posts
March 20 2014 17:27 GMT
#18600
On March 21 2014 01:05 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 21 2014 00:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think late-game TvP is fine. Both sides have the units they need to fight the other and with proper Ghost control we see good Terrans win late game scenarios. Guys like Taeja, Polt, and even Bunny are doing very well in the late game.

IMO it's the early game that causes problems for Terran because they either die or fall behind in econ. But when they come out even or ahead they can win.

So I don't think Storm needs to be reworked or any major changes to Colossus are needed etc. Forced manual charge on Zealots is the most ridiculous thing that is suggested pretty regularly.

**In before "omg Dinomight so biased." I'm playing exclusively Terran right now.


I think it's pretty telling when 2 high level Protoss independently say how much stronger Terran has gotten through the last patch (and give reasonable evidence --> Korean GM being Terran dominated; even if that may just be because they have a little bit too much time to spare currently ).


I am not sure how exactly is KR GM Terran dominated. Right now there are 60 terrans in GM which is 30%. Slightly underrepresented if anything, certainly not over represented. Also, as you said it yourself, a lot of terrans who play on KR have nothing to do right now but ladder since they are not competing in Proleague or individual league. Supernova, Byun, Innovation etc. are all guys who ladder and even stream regularly.

Also, top 16 GM changes drastically every day. Maybe top of the ladder was dominated by terran during an interview with Rain but right now the distribution looks different. Ladder can't really be used as any kind of evidence because ranking depends on various factors like activity but also the streak a player had that day. Guy with high MMR like Innovation gets around 5 points for a win without bonus pool but often goes - 15 points for a loss. So it is hard to stay on top of KR GM for long.

Only time ladder is any indicator is when certain race gets overrepresented in all GMs for months (like protoss was and maybe still is, I don't know recent numbers).

And Zest didn't really say protoss is UP or that terran is OP. He said protoss feels weaker now after patch which is only natural since the whole purpose of the patch was to make protoss weaker. Weaker doesn't mean underpowered, especially if race was considered overpowered before the patch.

Protoss players have consistently gotten more and more greedy when they don't open with aggression. I am not a high level player so I won't use my games as evidence of any kind of balance but I frequently encounter protoss players who go for 1 gas fast expand into storm and charge (and have both by around 9.30) off literally 2 stalkers and 1-2 sentries + MSC.

So when I do a double medivac drop, they don't have anything to defend with, they lose 20+ probes and it is game over.

MSC and inability to put pressure on protoss (since hellbat nerf) gradually made them more and more greedy (when they don't open aggressively). Even ladder protoss players from dia+ adopted this mentality. That will obviously need to change a bit and only then will we able to see if protoss is really UP in a standard macro game.

Personally I think Yonghwa had a great response to WM in his game against Maru. Opening colossus to avoid mines and force marauders and then go for a charge and fast armor upgrades. Maru was on the ropes and Yonghwa only lost because he threw the game away.

This just shows that opening templar tech isn't the only way to play against terran and colossus isn't really that inferior to templar tech.
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