EPTRemove MSC, give additional Nexii a Chronoboost or PO option so the P has to decide on better economy or better safety, not both.
Give TW to Oracles.
Give recall to Warp Prisms and reduce its radius.
Nerf Medivac speedboost, revert mutalisk.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 899
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kckkryptonite
1126 Posts
Remove MSC, give additional Nexii a Chronoboost or PO option so the P has to decide on better economy or better safety, not both. Give TW to Oracles. Give recall to Warp Prisms and reduce its radius. Nerf Medivac speedboost, revert mutalisk. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Having 2 Time Warps per engagement is enough to deal with. Msc is just stupid, and is a terrible bandaid caused by the fail that is the warpgate (but it's race defining ,so we have that going for us), which cuts the early game out of every game and puts Protoss straight to the stage of the game they are strongest at. MSC Movement speed / anti ground down, vision down, casting range down... It's way to powerful. | ||
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ReMinD_
Croatia846 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:18 kckkryptonite wrote: Hero units like the MSC don't belong in strategy games like SC2, it's a god-tier unit that's boring and always built no matter what build P is doing. Remove MSC, give additional Nexii a Chronoboost or PO option so the P has to decide on better economy or better safety, not both. Give TW to Oracles. Give recall to Warp Prisms and reduce its radius. Nerf Medivac speedboost, revert mutalisk. Yeah, no thanks. Ideally Time Warp should simply be removed from the game, Protoss had zero need for yet another crowd control spell; and Time Warp does not even create some interactions like Force Field or Storm, you just cast it/them and half if not the whole army of your opponent is caught in it, and that's it. The MSC was yet another disaster in the long list of catastrophic Protoss units, but you cannot remove it without a complete overhaul of HotS Protoss since the race was built around it. Fortunately enough, balancing the MSC by tweaking its stats and spells is not particularly difficult. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
in the mean while they can do all sorts of strats like blink and oracle against terran thanks to overcharge and even the slightest mistake can cost terran the game early. srsly msc needs to go, toss are becoming overreliant on it as a hero unit that can counter any pressure early game. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:18 kckkryptonite wrote: Hero units like the MSC don't belong in strategy games like SC2, it's a god-tier unit that's boring and always built no matter what build P is doing. Remove MSC, give additional Nexii a Chronoboost or PO option so the P has to decide on better economy or better safety, not both. Give TW to Oracles. Give recall to Warp Prisms and reduce its radius. Nerf Medivac speedboost, revert mutalisk. Lol time warp on oracles. By the way, only fix protoss needed compared to WoL is early game defensive advantage in PvP. So if Blizzard decided to make a flying early game caster it should have similar role as queen in defense without any offensive potential. This would even further help PvP since attacker wouldn't be able to send his own MSC into attack as well. Time warp and MSC offensive potential in general was thrown in to give "cool new options" but it actually just created problems. Race already has FF and instant reinforcement that ignores map size so you can do early game aggression on any map. Adding time warp and uncontested high ground vision because MSC can't be sniped by marines or queens or even stalkers if protoss is careful enough is just bad game design. MSC vision should be reduced from 14 to something more reasonable like 11. Also, the combined power of blink mobility and time warp makes for games where even minimal commitment of just 3 gates forces massive overreactions in defending player, mostly in TvP. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I'm generally pretty satisfied with the game's design choices, but I don't know what the guys at Blizzard were thinking with that one. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
-Reduce vision range (11) while diverting back PO to 60sec. -Make time warp and recall an upgrade at the core (or recall only for the mothership) -Get rid of the AtG attack. This means, it becomes primarily a defensive unit (which was its original purpose) that needs to be invested if one decides to support attack troops with it. It also doesn't force the Terran to get marines early game if one happens to just fly over.. It still does what it does except with more investment i.e. more risk. Perhaps blink cool down needs to be looked at(?) What a mess.. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:50 Grumbels wrote: An easy fix for Time Warp is to make it affect protoss units as well. That way your zealots are also at a disadvantage and its use becomes more strategical. That would help only with early zealot + MSC pressure in PvZ. Would do nothing for TvP and blink play | ||
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kroko
Finland2136 Posts
How about bringin back old EMP, or even make it larger? That way Toss needs to split the ball or gets the whole army EMP'ed. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:52 kroko wrote: Just a random suggestion for deathball syndroma. How about bringin back old EMP, or even make it larger? That way Toss needs to split the ball or gets the whole army EMP'ed. in the whole SC2 history Blizzard has never reverted a balance change. I doubt they´ll start now with it. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:52 kroko wrote: Just a random suggestion for deathball syndroma. How about bringin back old EMP, or even make it larger? That way Toss needs to split the ball or gets the whole army EMP'ed. While EMP could currently do with a slightly larger radius (not the old one but some value between 1.5 and 2), honestly TvP should be pushed away from spellcasters battles into 5 seconds engagements. | ||
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:52 kroko wrote: Just a random suggestion for deathball syndroma. How about bringin back old EMP, or even make it larger? That way Toss needs to split the ball or gets the whole army EMP'ed. Since it was nerfed at the time terran had economic advantage in early game and economic and army advantage in mid game it would probably be fine even if they buffed EMP somehow. But I don't think late game should be even more "EMP or die" that is just a bad fix to the game. All problems originate from protoss early game. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
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S1eth
Austria221 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:59 TeeTS wrote: in the whole SC2 history Blizzard has never reverted a balance change. I doubt they´ll start now with it. Ever heard of bunker build time? | ||
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
On February 09 2014 21:18 kckkryptonite wrote: Hero units like the MSC don't belong in strategy games like SC2, it's a god-tier unit that's boring and always built no matter what build P is doing. Remove MSC, give additional Nexii a Chronoboost or PO option so the P has to decide on better economy or better safety, not both. Give TW to Oracles. Give recall to Warp Prisms and reduce its radius. Nerf Medivac speedboost, revert mutalisk. All HotS units except maybe Viper don't belong to sc2, showmatch Ghost vs Ht before 200/200 Fights and all these 2sec Fights too. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
- I also wouldn't mind increasing the energy for time warp and PO to 125 each, then make each spell stronger accordingly. Right now a full energy MSC can do 2 spells at once which is not only too good, but doesn't reward decision making on the protoss; he's allowed to make a mistake with a MSC spell because he can do a second spell right afterwards. However if each spell was 125 energy then the toss has to make the choice of whether to time warp or PO. Each spell would get stronger to reward the correct choice. - Everyone's mentioned multiple times that the MSC needs a vision nerf, so I won't bother with that. - If we want Mech to not suck balls in tvp, tanks need a buff. Toss is really the only race where they can beat mass tanks with ground units which is totally dumb. The easiest buff would be to give tanks a bonus damage to shields, much like the widow mine. It makes sense because this buff would only affect tvp which is currently the only matchup where mech is utter garbage. The only potential problem would be that it could open up timing attacks, but it's unlikely to kill tosses early because PO has the same range as tanks anyway. If timing attacks do end up being a problem for whatever reason, I would not mind having a +shields damage upgrade for tanks in the factory tech lab instead. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Blizzard has never to my knowledge reverted any changes they made. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Bunker#Patch_Changes Patch 6 (version 0.8.0.14593) Build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds. Patch 16 (version 0.19.0.15976) Undocumented Changes [1] Bunker build time increased from 30 to 40. Patch 17 (version 0.20.0.16036) [2] Bunker build time decreased from 40 seconds to 30 seconds. Patch 1.1.0 Build time increased from 30 to 35. Patch 1.3.0 Build time increased from 35 to 40. Patch 1.3.3 Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. You can ignore the oddity of patch 16 and 17. Patch 16 was a mistake and patch 17 quickly came out to revert the changes. Patch 6 was very early in the beta when nothing had stabilized yet, of course it's a period of experimentation. You can fairly take post-patch 6 as the baseline. In that case they only incrementally changed bunker build time and never reverted any change. | ||
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S1eth
Austria221 Posts
On February 10 2014 00:02 Grumbels wrote: Blizzard has never to my knowledge reverted any changes they made. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Bunker#Patch_Changes You can ignore the oddity of patch 16 and 17. Patch 16 was a mistake and patch 17 quickly came out to revert the changes. Patch 6 was very early in the beta when nothing had stabilized yet, of course it's a period of experimentation. You can fairly take post-patch 6 as the baseline. In that case they only incrementally changed bunker build time and never reverted any change. You can't move the goalposts anymore. Your argument has been rendered invalid. | ||
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