EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 897
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Smilerut
Romania5 Posts
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On February 08 2014 19:21 Smilerut wrote: TL, I'm rank 1 bronze and I don't think Zerg is for me. Protoss looks cool and fun and I like the units more. Do I suffer from some kind of disease? Am I allowed to switch? Will I be a hated human being? All I want is to feel good playing my race. Zerg has Swarm Host so you should definately be ashemed of yourself for playing that race. However Protoss is dirty. Only way you can redeem yourself, is to play Terran, the most well designed race, which has no flaws and has the most beautifull unit in the game, marine, but also the second most aesthetically pleasing unit, tank. Go, and make us proud. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On February 08 2014 19:06 SC2Toastie wrote: Who spoke about a severe nerf? I'm talking about a revert to the levels they had before they got a buff TO DEAL WITH MINES That would be return them to wol levels, which is quite severe imo, if you do not touch pheonix and speedivacs. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 08 2014 20:44 Ana_ wrote: That would be return them to wol levels, which is quite severe imo, if you do not touch pheonix and speedivacs. Phoenix, maybe. Speedivacs, nope. Speedivacs are fine and quite easilly dealt with. What Zerg needs is reliable Anti Air. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On February 08 2014 20:46 SC2Toastie wrote: Phoenix, maybe. Speedivacs, nope. Speedivacs are fine and quite easilly dealt with. What Zerg needs is reliable Anti Air. They do. Corruptors are...heh.  | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Heheheheh :-P | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On February 08 2014 20:46 SC2Toastie wrote: Phoenix, maybe. Speedivacs, nope. Speedivacs are fine and quite easilly dealt with. What Zerg needs is reliable Anti Air. Speed buff was to deal with speedmedivacs. Regen was to deal with mines. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:15 Swiipii wrote: Speed buff was to deal with speedmedivacs. Regen was to deal with mines. However, people learned to deal with speedivacs (Zerglings, overlords, good creep spread), so testing it might be worth it (not like the buff was that huge at first) | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote: Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs Side Effects: None Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly, ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk. Opinions? It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
What i dislike the most are doom drops in tvt, you are losing? HEY load in all your army in 5 medivacs and camp the production! Nah sorry but speedivacs made the game more volatile i feel | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote: Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote: Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. Mutalisk currently ARE used as the end-all composition. Mutalisk are the step you take to finish off your opponent. You interpret my statement wrong: Mutalisk cannot kill every composition, but they can abuse the immobility anti-Mutalisk compositions require to such a degree the Mutalisk kill everything the other play has and overpower with sheer numbers (As A sidenote, I think Mutalisk trade reasonably vs Templar Voidray) PvZ, Mutalisk are the remax option because Protoss has a hard time responding quickly, the only option Protoss has against Mutalisk is the Phoenix, all other units are way too slow and you'll lose the basetrade. Recall denies the Mutalisk from killing one base, but they've got enough time to get out and kill something else. Biomine v Mutalisk the same thing happens, When the mutaflock gets large enough to ignore Turrets, Terran cannot fight against the Mutalisk anymore and Zerg flat out kills terran. Before the mine nerf, Zerg hardly ever got that Mutalisk deathball rolling, but nowadays, it occurs quite often (and is, IMO, the reason we see players try Mech). Vs Mech, Mutalisk do the same thing. Yes, usually you won't kill the main army instantly, but what use is a main army when you have no production / economy anymore? On maps like Yeonsu it is decently possible to zone the mutalisk, but on most other maps Mutalisk are soo fast against the Mech army and so powerful against Turrets the Terran just slowly dies (see for example: Innovation vs Soulkey G2/G3 from IEM Asia Qualifiers. I haven't seen the game, but from the LR I made out the same thing happened in Leenock vs Supernove yesterday.) As a sidenote, players like Life, DRG and Leenock occasionally made Mutalisk work vs Terran, but Infestor Ling was just so much stronger and easier. Any data to late Wol TvZ is quite useless in my opinion, because multiple Zergs stated they didn't even practice vs T anymore. Just for clarety's sake, let me rephrase: Mutalisk are currently so powerful in a switch they can very reliably give Zerg a massive advantage in the game when Mutalisk reach their critical numbers (around 25/30) which requires blind preparation from the Opponent to deny succesfully (going Thor/Mine/Viking/Raven/Turret after a fight, 5 SG Phoenix) and usually still manage to trade efficiently. I would propose an upgrade for Regen, but that'd screw with biomine/MLB balance. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote: Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. He lost patience? He was sitting there dieing to Swarmhosts and had not a lot of choices... Funny how again, Hosts appear to be a problem. Lets buff Tempest and change Ravens to fix that 0.0!??!?!! + Show Spoiler + sarcasm | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote: Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. What's that logic...? | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote: Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote: Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. Yeah quite fine, If you think that having your enemy sit at 5k3k bank is doing fine,then i dunno^^ Mutas are just stupid at the moment, you dance from base to base and kill stuff, maybe you lose one muta here and there, but they are basically always on full health... On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote: Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. Ah cmon, he did built just enough swarmhosts to "sit back" and a huge mutaball to fly from base to base and snipe stuff. The problem is that mutas are extremely "noobfriendly" right now, you have to fuck up REALLY bad to lose them. What was innovation supposed to do? Turrets don't work, having 3 thors at every base too? I am a Zerg player myself but mutas are definitely not fine atm On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote: The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. exactly, it was extremely obvious at the IEM match between soulkey and innovation | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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