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On January 31 2014 11:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
Sado-masochists are finding Terran the most fun to play it has ever been man
are you talking about me 
switched to terran in late WoL
saw toss having more trouble than terran against Z, switch to toss
Now I am T again :D
honestly TvP isn't that bad, I had a lot more BS thrown at me back in early 2010 as a zerg and didn't really get better until later with stuff like no more triple pylon wall or something.
TvZ thor drop on lost temple etc
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On January 31 2014 13:03 architecture wrote:
I don't understand people still claiming the marine is the core of design problems for SC2.
The marine was core in BW TvZ and even forced ridiculously "imba" stuff to counter it (lurkers + dswarm). Yet, the matchup was 5-10x more rich.
Forest from the trees.
On January 30 2014 09:26 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 06:52 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 30 2014 02:52 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want. I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs. I don't see the link between AoE to beat bio and deathball. Please explain why, according to you, having to use AoE to beat bio leads to deathball play? I totally agree that bio+medivacs is the strongest army comp if there is no AoE, however banelings-based comp for example are good against bio, and are nowhere near deathball play or turtle style 1. As bio is way stronger than anything that protoss has without aoe, a protoss has to turtle in base until he gets this aoe units out. simple reason for turtling 2. Protoss aoe gets balanced refering on what they are intended to deal with. In PvT this is bio. Bio is not only a bit stronger than protoss gateway (as it was in broodwar) with maurauders, marine shields and mass medivacs but way stronger. The protoss aoe has to adjust to it. The intended balance of colossi is at around 3 colossi. Having less than that makes them less or uneffective for their intended use, having more than them makes them more effective. Protoss has to wait at least for about 2-3 colossi to do anything. 3. bio>gateway, colossi>bio, viking>colossi, gateway>viking system, which can be and in fact is kinda random. as protoss is already in the defensive position it is not a big deal instead to decide to expand, not attack, simply defend and get more colossi, switch to psi and just max out. While 3 colossi are somewhat balanced in an army composition, 5+ with psi is not anymore as bio melts against it without doing enaugh damage anymore. 4. Now if you just nerf protoss aoe it would bleed out on 2 bases or be run over on 3 bases any game. In order to nerf protoss aoe you need to first nerf what it is intended to deal with which is bio in pvt. Just try to imagine a 100 supply 2-2 bio+medivac mix and anything protoss or zerg can have at this time that doesnt contain aoe damage. There is simply nothing that can face it in the slightest way. Bio loses maybe 10-30% at best and the other armies are just vanished. While it is a good idea to have differences between the races and make one race use aoe to deal with another races basic unit, this is way overdone. It is just a rush to the aoe for the other races in order to not to instant die. If you lose your aoe (bane/colossi/templar) early in a fight you get simply overrun by bio units. If you manage to outmaneuver the bio and keep your aoe alive as long as possible the bio gets devastated, as it is quite hard to impossible to decently micro it. Given this, there is too much chance of an unbalanced fight to take place. A minor positioning mistake or moving out too early/too far then decides about if you lose 100% of your army and the opponent loses almost nothing or the other way round, and this also further promotes turtling and waiting for the opponents minor mistake (minor mistake on progaming level). The variety of unit combination is quite limited due to this too (as well for terran as for the other races). Now lets look at a more healthy balance. If the said 2-2 100 supply bio army still devastated any other army without aoe with having about 25-50% survivors instead of 70-90% then the aoe of the other races would not need to be as strong as it is right now in order to create a roughly balanced scenario. The fights then would take longer and would not be decided within a second after a mistaken positioning or movement. People had to show more micro in fights and the influence of the skill of a player on the outcome of the fight/game would increase dramatically. Frustration would decrease by far as well. This is what I am pledging for. The source of the problem is terran bio. After this roaches, colossi, banelings, psi, and so on could be nerfed too. Muta regeneration and mothershipcore are in the end of this chain and will be adjusted to the needs after this. Therefore there is no need to discuss about it. The game can't be fixed without fixing the fundamentals, the source code, the things that everything else is based on. As long as bio stays as strong as it is the whole game will continue to be a fight of hard counters (as bio is a hardcounter to everything and is hardcountered by everything with aoe and cc) that is decided in quick fights where the players skill has not as much influence as it could and more and more players turn their back to the game and play LoL or whatever else. Now this is a fine wall of text but it was worth it if at least one of you guys is trying to understand this. You can discuss as long as you want about msc, muta regen and whatever else. This only decides about who has the edge wihin the current mechanics that are bad themselves and cause frustration, player loss and a low (compared to bw) skill cap (even flash can hardly make a difference in a 5 seconds fight but he probably could in a 20-30 seconds fight). Blizzard if you read this, this is the reason for anything people complain about even when they don't know it and find other punching bags for the frustration they got with the game. We players should encourage blizzard to do such major changes with the next add on and not go on with the racial fights about minor things that wont change the big picture of SC2. And players are in fact turning their back to a game due to the general feeling they get about it and not cause of muta regen or widow mines being a bit too strong or weak. Greetings
This is not about the marine solely. It is about bio. This is marine + maurauder + medivac + ups (e.g. marine shields or 2-2 timing).
This combination is the hard counter to anything in the game which is not aoe. It is simply the basic mechanic problem that starcraft has and the source for almost all other problems. You can read above in the quote for what reason in detail.
In broodwar medics were worse (12 medics are way worse than 12 medivacs as medivacs stack and survive most battles), marines had no marine shield and there were no t1.5 maurauders that just own about any other armoured unit in the game.
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On February 01 2014 21:44 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2014 13:03 architecture wrote:
I don't understand people still claiming the marine is the core of design problems for SC2.
The marine was core in BW TvZ and even forced ridiculously "imba" stuff to counter it (lurkers + dswarm). Yet, the matchup was 5-10x more rich.
Forest from the trees. Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 09:26 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 06:52 VieuxSinge wrote:On January 30 2014 02:52 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want. I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs. I don't see the link between AoE to beat bio and deathball. Please explain why, according to you, having to use AoE to beat bio leads to deathball play? I totally agree that bio+medivacs is the strongest army comp if there is no AoE, however banelings-based comp for example are good against bio, and are nowhere near deathball play or turtle style 1. As bio is way stronger than anything that protoss has without aoe, a protoss has to turtle in base until he gets this aoe units out. simple reason for turtling 2. Protoss aoe gets balanced refering on what they are intended to deal with. In PvT this is bio. Bio is not only a bit stronger than protoss gateway (as it was in broodwar) with maurauders, marine shields and mass medivacs but way stronger. The protoss aoe has to adjust to it. The intended balance of colossi is at around 3 colossi. Having less than that makes them less or uneffective for their intended use, having more than them makes them more effective. Protoss has to wait at least for about 2-3 colossi to do anything. 3. bio>gateway, colossi>bio, viking>colossi, gateway>viking system, which can be and in fact is kinda random. as protoss is already in the defensive position it is not a big deal instead to decide to expand, not attack, simply defend and get more colossi, switch to psi and just max out. While 3 colossi are somewhat balanced in an army composition, 5+ with psi is not anymore as bio melts against it without doing enaugh damage anymore. 4. Now if you just nerf protoss aoe it would bleed out on 2 bases or be run over on 3 bases any game. In order to nerf protoss aoe you need to first nerf what it is intended to deal with which is bio in pvt. Just try to imagine a 100 supply 2-2 bio+medivac mix and anything protoss or zerg can have at this time that doesnt contain aoe damage. There is simply nothing that can face it in the slightest way. Bio loses maybe 10-30% at best and the other armies are just vanished. While it is a good idea to have differences between the races and make one race use aoe to deal with another races basic unit, this is way overdone. It is just a rush to the aoe for the other races in order to not to instant die. If you lose your aoe (bane/colossi/templar) early in a fight you get simply overrun by bio units. If you manage to outmaneuver the bio and keep your aoe alive as long as possible the bio gets devastated, as it is quite hard to impossible to decently micro it. Given this, there is too much chance of an unbalanced fight to take place. A minor positioning mistake or moving out too early/too far then decides about if you lose 100% of your army and the opponent loses almost nothing or the other way round, and this also further promotes turtling and waiting for the opponents minor mistake (minor mistake on progaming level). The variety of unit combination is quite limited due to this too (as well for terran as for the other races). Now lets look at a more healthy balance. If the said 2-2 100 supply bio army still devastated any other army without aoe with having about 25-50% survivors instead of 70-90% then the aoe of the other races would not need to be as strong as it is right now in order to create a roughly balanced scenario. The fights then would take longer and would not be decided within a second after a mistaken positioning or movement. People had to show more micro in fights and the influence of the skill of a player on the outcome of the fight/game would increase dramatically. Frustration would decrease by far as well. This is what I am pledging for. The source of the problem is terran bio. After this roaches, colossi, banelings, psi, and so on could be nerfed too. Muta regeneration and mothershipcore are in the end of this chain and will be adjusted to the needs after this. Therefore there is no need to discuss about it. The game can't be fixed without fixing the fundamentals, the source code, the things that everything else is based on. As long as bio stays as strong as it is the whole game will continue to be a fight of hard counters (as bio is a hardcounter to everything and is hardcountered by everything with aoe and cc) that is decided in quick fights where the players skill has not as much influence as it could and more and more players turn their back to the game and play LoL or whatever else. Now this is a fine wall of text but it was worth it if at least one of you guys is trying to understand this. You can discuss as long as you want about msc, muta regen and whatever else. This only decides about who has the edge wihin the current mechanics that are bad themselves and cause frustration, player loss and a low (compared to bw) skill cap (even flash can hardly make a difference in a 5 seconds fight but he probably could in a 20-30 seconds fight). Blizzard if you read this, this is the reason for anything people complain about even when they don't know it and find other punching bags for the frustration they got with the game. We players should encourage blizzard to do such major changes with the next add on and not go on with the racial fights about minor things that wont change the big picture of SC2. And players are in fact turning their back to a game due to the general feeling they get about it and not cause of muta regen or widow mines being a bit too strong or weak. Greetings This is not about the marine solely. It is about bio. This is marine + maurauder + medivac + ups (e.g. marine shields or 2-2 timing). This combination is the hard counter to anything in the game which is not aoe. It is simply the basic mechanic problem that starcraft has and the source for almost all other problems. You can read above in the quote for what reason in detail. In broodwar medics were worse (12 medics are way worse than 12 medivacs as medivacs stack and survive most battles), marines had no marine shield and there were no t1.5 maurauders that just own about any other armoured unit in the game.
Also Terran automatically gets the ability to drop. There is no decision since medievacs are mandatory. This further amplifies the problem and encourages turtle play while also limiting Terran builds.
Btw that comment about baneling based compositions is just stupid. The baneling is a stupid unit which only exists because zergs would just roll over and die if it didn't. The deathball/turtle part in ZvT is not about the baneling but about the muta, which is the core unit.
All this makes bio based play is way too tempo reliant.
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On February 01 2014 18:36 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 23:54 Big J wrote:
[...]
For Starbow, that's exactly what they did. The Zergling has like 35% more dps, Protoss has the Reaver and zealots with +10health. Stalkers are pretty costefficient against marines there, since they cost 50minerals less but have more dps and come with blink. Terran doesn't have medivacs to force the Protoss into embryo position with bio from 10mins onwards.
Also they tweaked the responiveness of marines a little bit as far as I know, and yeah, 10less health is huge. Well, yeah, but afaik isn't bio-play nigh unplayable in TvP in Starbow? Sounds like the same problem HotS has with mech, but in reverse.
I think Hider and a few others say it's viable. Or some biomech variations. I think it is at least borderline viable in all matchups.
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On February 01 2014 22:52 Ravomat wrote:
Also Terran automatically gets the ability to drop. There is no decision since medievacs are mandatory. This further amplifies the problem and encourages turtle play while also limiting Terran builds.
Btw that comment about baneling based compositions is just stupid. The baneling is a stupid unit which only exists because zergs would just roll over and die if it didn't. The deathball/turtle part in ZvT is not about the baneling but about the muta, which is the core unit.
All this makes bio based play is way too tempo reliant.
I don't like the baneling too much. It is not that bad either (especially interesting with burrow) but imo the lurker was creating better games for two reason. First lurkes actually stays alive while dealing damage and second they are not a kind of a click go unit.
Banelings oftenly either die and don't do much (mines, marine micro, maurauder explosions, medivac pickups) or kill way too much at once without allowing the terran to decently micro (just too hard). In both cases it is a terrible damage scenario which can be an early game decider. Banes are the only units that deal with bio well that zerg has. Infestor + other units can do as well but the question is why zerg should not get 6 additional banelings instead of 1 infestor or 30 banes instead of 5 infestors and a click go with them as he needs banelings anyway but slow sketchy infestors not. Even with infestors usually banelings are required as well or later ultras. Ultra + infestor + x (that x includes banes oftenly again) is the only other combination that deals with bio well.
Mutalisks are what they are due to strong bio as well (in particular medivacs). Without banelings mutalisks do nothing vs bio tho.
The strength of mutalisks is a problem for mech terran play and non fenix protoss. It can create odd scenarios where a harrass/mapcontrol unit suddenly rolls over whole armies and also zerg anti air turrets had to be buffed - caused originally by bio.
But to say something positive, I think the game has already improved much with the last changes. Just terran being a bit up now. Question is how to improve this withoug making T op then while the game stays a game of hardcounters.
Still, if bio got just a bit less strong other compositions besides the baneling would become more viable and more terrible damage/hardcounter units can be nerfed and the whole warpgate thing could be addressed more easily (an 80 apm race as protoss could actually use some more finesse, there is no single reason that protoss must use 100% warpgates instead of e.g. 30%warpgate+70%gateway).
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I just know I'm getting awfully sick of seeing all these safe blink / oracle / msc rushes vs Terran. Why is their almost no risk? It seems like every game I'm watching at pro level protoss wins outright or comes out ahead. The current state of this game is really not motivating me.
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i remember back in the days when there would be no chance for me to miss tournaments like IEM and ASUS (even if i was working or something).
Now i missed 90% of games. I'm not a hardcore fan anymore and balance is reason of it. If I stopped to enjoy in something i had so much pleasure since 2005. (and BW days) then i'm not the only one. PvP finals everywhere, predictable games, boring games... My hope is still alive but i don't know for how long, sc2 became shitty game, like red alert or some imbalanced shit like that. Protoss > skill 
:frustrated: :sad:
User was banned for this post.
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The game is frustrating due to the punishing mechanics that are due to the hardcounter stuff. I don't see bright future for SC2 if nothing changes there. Flash might go back to bw or do anything else, others switch to LoL, SC2 slowly drying out and being removed from more events when player and viewer numbers decrease further. In korean pc bangs barely anyone is playing sc2, I hardly no any of the old bw players that is really fully enjoying the game, many ppl just cheese in the ladder in matchups that they get frustrated with. New players get frustrated with the game as certain mechanics like a click go with banelings etc. is just too easy to execute on low level. I actually would like to login and play some games, but somehow I don't and rather am here to talk about balance.
These are all not good signs.
I would like to see creative solutions.
What I just thought of that could be an option is:
1. remove maurauder from the early and early midgame (maybe smth like armory requirement).
2. make hellbat available earlier (no armory requirement anymore).
(a bio opening would require both rax & fax then, which allows much more transitions a terran could do then)
3. increase warpgate unit build time and therefore make gateway an alternative that builds faster.
4. start balancing over from this.
just an idea tho
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So two huge tournaments this weekend and we see two Protosses taking first place in both of them. Having 5/8 Protosses in the combined top4-semi finals.
I can for my life not understand how the balance in the game then should be "fixed" by making Time Warp a bit more expensive and giving Ghost a free upgrade?
Protoss is dominating the SC2-scene as hard as Zerg was in the BL-Infestor era and if this keeps going I am afraid we will have Terran players fade away from the scene
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On February 02 2014 04:33 Glorfindel! wrote:So two huge tournaments this weekend and we see two Protosses taking first place in both of them. Having 5/8 Protosses in the combined top4-semi finals. I can for my life not understand how the balance in the game then should be "fixed" by making Time Warp a bit more expensive and giving Ghost a free upgrade? Protoss is dominating the SC2-scene as hard as Zerg was in the BL-Infestor era and if this keeps going I am afraid we will have Terran players fade away from the scene
Don't worry, the domination will switch to Zerg if 100/25 Hydralisks are implemented!
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On February 02 2014 04:33 Glorfindel! wrote:So two huge tournaments this weekend and we see two Protosses taking first place in both of them. Having 5/8 Protosses in the combined top4-semi finals. I can for my life not understand how the balance in the game then should be "fixed" by making Time Warp a bit more expensive and giving Ghost a free upgrade? Protoss is dominating the SC2-scene as hard as Zerg was in the BL-Infestor era and if this keeps going I am afraid we will have Terran players fade away from the scene
Three tournaments. You're forgetting the warer invitational.
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Yeah oracle should be changed too, the dps + the speed of the unit is too huge. It makes like 5-7 garanted kills or force a big turtle while it's not micro intensive at all.
Tempest change for late game zerg is ridiculous. Warp-prisme + zelotes +/-dt is aslo so strong as harass/deny expansions while fastly gazless. Now tempest can harass building too, as well as prevent Zerg form winning.
Honestly i haven't understood why in this expansion protoss, the race which have the most different air units has received too more.
The void has receive a charge which make it counter every zerg air army. Honestly even if they was no tempest, void can just crush corruptor/broodlord army. But they add tempest, and now they want to make it counter spores/spines/hatch as well.
I know this style is a bit annoying to play and to watch, but they're no really other comp that can beat the skytoss. Blizzard won't balance late game Z vs P or make it more entertaining, they just make it really more protoss favoured (i assume the hydra buff won't pass cause it's too imba).
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Ah well we still have one expansion to come out and several patches I have my hopes still high. I think also that people should stop call SC2 a dead game. The scene is still very active. Yes SC2 is smaller than LoL for example but that is because LoL reached dimensions way beyond comprehension. I still love the game.
Currently Blizzard should look closely to Z and T imo and should leave P where it is.
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On February 02 2014 05:04 Tyrhanius wrote:
Yeah oracle should be changed too, the dps + the speed of the unit is too huge.
I can't believe there was anything but ''Lets make protoss coinflips more viable'' behind the current oracle decision making process. The unit's solo purpose is an early coinflip in which it either crashes and burns or deals huge damage.
No one in their sane mind would build this only for revelation, its detection is subpar to the observer's and is only used when you got none out. Finally the pulsar beam is only good at attacking completely unprepared mineral lines very early.
Can anyone think of a rework for this unit that could be interesting?
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On February 02 2014 05:19 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 05:04 Tyrhanius wrote:
Yeah oracle should be changed too, the dps + the speed of the unit is too huge.
I can't believe there was anything but ''Lets make protoss coinflips more viable'' behind the current oracle decision making process. The unit's solo purpose is an early coinflip in which it either crashes and burns or deals huge damage. No one in their sane mind would build this only for revelation, its detection is subpar to the observer's and is only used when you got none out. Finally the pulsar beam is only good at attacking completely unprepared mineral lines very early. Can anyone think of a rework for this unit that could be interesting?
Give it an ability that makes 50 damage to a single target so it can "one shot" any worker ( the ability costing energy or cooldown), make it cheaper and remove the current Lazer Beam from the game. Suddenly you have a cheaper scouting unit, that grants detection, has relevation and also gives a good multitasker the ability to fly in, pick of a worker, fly out and repeat.
Just an idea, not saying its brilliant.
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On February 02 2014 05:33 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2014 05:19 Morbidius wrote:On February 02 2014 05:04 Tyrhanius wrote:
Yeah oracle should be changed too, the dps + the speed of the unit is too huge.
I can't believe there was anything but ''Lets make protoss coinflips more viable'' behind the current oracle decision making process. The unit's solo purpose is an early coinflip in which it either crashes and burns or deals huge damage. No one in their sane mind would build this only for revelation, its detection is subpar to the observer's and is only used when you got none out. Finally the pulsar beam is only good at attacking completely unprepared mineral lines very early. Can anyone think of a rework for this unit that could be interesting? Give it an ability that makes 50 damage to a single target so it can "one shot" any worker ( the ability costing energy or cooldown), make it cheaper and remove the current Lazer Beam from the game. Suddenly you have a cheaper scouting unit, that grants detection, has relevation and also gives a good multitasker the ability to fly in, pick of a worker, fly out and repeat. Just an idea, not saying its brilliant.
That would just be an outright nerf i think, if its not used in the current state it would't in that one either, maybe only with reduced price...
Oracle definitely needs the reaper treatment lol.
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If the ghost change goes through I'm 1 base cloak ghost rushing.
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After watching ASUS and IEM I sure hope Tempest buff goes through so P has a chance against all the other races having an easy time against them.
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On February 02 2014 07:02 mythandier wrote:
After watching ASUS and IEM I sure hope Tempest buff goes through so P has a chance against all the other races having an easy time against them.
So you mean against Protoss? 
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On February 02 2014 07:02 mythandier wrote:
After watching ASUS and IEM I sure hope Tempest buff goes through so P has a chance against all the other races having an easy time against them.
Protoss so weak. Blink Stalkers cooldown should also be reduced and Zealots should get auto charge in order to have a fighting chance against Zerg and Terran.
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EPT
