EPTRandom ideas from a noob.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 893
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Orek
1665 Posts
Random ideas from a noob. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 30 2014 13:53 Orek wrote: What if MSC is a ground unit so that it can't give high ground vision for blink stalkers? Or, what if MSC is permanently "blind" like units affected by broodwar's optical flare so that it remains on air yet can't give vision on high ground that easily? Random ideas from a noob. I think Protoss are saying they need the vision range to scout in PvP. But it is just too 'safe' in TvP. Even back in WoL, when blink all-ins required an obs, there was still a risk if the protoss lost their obs due to a scan. With time wrap and the vision range, it is almost impossible to lose the MsC. Especially on these WCS/ladder maps. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
On January 30 2014 15:20 vthree wrote: I think Protoss are saying they need the vision range to scout in PvP. But it is just too 'safe' in TvP. Even back in WoL, when blink all-ins required an obs, there was still a risk if the protoss lost their obs due to a scan. With time wrap and the vision range, it is almost impossible to lose the MsC. Especially on these WCS/ladder maps. Well I'm a protoss and I'm not a big fan of the MSC either, and I rarely rely on it for defensive purposes in early game (like I should) of TvP anyway. However, in PvP MSC does play a huge role in deflecting blink stalker all-ins with Recall and Nexus Cannon. We are, however, neglecting ZvP and the MSC's function there; but, let's be honest here... denying greedy play is a good thing :D. Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say is that taking away it's vision wouldn't really change many match-ups other than PvP, sure in PvT there is still a possibility for a blink all-in, but Terrans have stim and marauders to deal with that, as well as bunkers if scouted properly. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On January 30 2014 06:45 Ben... wrote: @DWF: Yeah I thought of that after but didn't have a chance to change my post. My bad. But my point remains. Adding more stupid all-ins from either side does not fix the matchup, it just makes it worse. I have to somewhat disagree with this, not because I enjoy all-innish plays but because it keeps both sides honest. A large problem right now in TvP is that terran has to account for all the possible all-ins in their builds (or risk an early loss) while protoss is free to cut corners because theres nothing really threatening terran can do between 2rax and medivac timings. Its the biggest change from WoL really, terran builds have become less efficient while protoss builds have become moreso. Now I dont think marauder rushes are something to bring back but for example 1-1-1 being viable again would go a long towards fixing inequalities like this, it can seep into standard builds and maybe force protoss build more sentries and defensive units early on. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On January 30 2014 02:23 TheDwf wrote: Not defending at all the idea that Marauders should come with Concussive Shells researched (removing upgrades is such a lazy trend), but you should be aware that proxy Marauder is dead in TvP simply because the MSC is a flying unit, which means your Marauders just die as they move out from the rax because of the constant flow of unchallenged attacks. I don't even know how you can misanalyse so much what would happen in such a scenario. A Marauder has 125 hit points and 1 armor. The MSC deals 8 damage every 0.85 second, i. e. ~8,25 dps against Marauders. This means the MSC kills one Marauder every ~15 seconds. Marauders take 30 seconds to build from a rax lab which is complete by 3'10, so the first Marauder is out at 3'40. The MSC is out at 4'. Factoring rally time, this means the first Marauder would have like 10 seconds of free shots against the Zealot or, worst case scenario for the Protoss, undefended Probes (and it takes 6 seconds for a Marauder to kill a Probe). The outcome would be at most a dead Zealot or 2 Probe kills if Protoss doesn't bother to micro, and then the Terran would be as good as dead because the MSC would just kill Marauders as they're built and counter-attack a defenseless Terran base. If Terran tries to build a Bunker, you pull several Probes and kill the worker during the few seconds in which the MSC is still not there, and voilà, the attack is stopped... (And no, you cannot "kite workers indefinitely," because all untargeted workers are still faster than Marauders and can thus surround them; nor can you "kite" Stalkers by the way, they systematically fire back.) Marauders should not come with Concussive researched but the reason is certainly not that it would make proxy Marauders unstoppable in TvP... your also forgetting the strength of proxy marauder tvt. Back in wol it was my go to build in the mu and evrey so often you will see pros throw it out its super punishing to 12 gas openings and fe builds. you see less of it in hots since it is now a build order loss to builds like 8-8-8 (though this is rare) and in general has difficulty with early reapering players, but a buff to conc shells would make it an even more effective allin. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
I'd suggest to cut it down to maybe 7 or 8 and give it an upgrade to extend range to 13, maybe in Twilight Council. This would make Protoss less safe in the earlygame and still give it the same drop defense in mid- and lategame with the upgrade. Having the upgrade in Twilight Council would give Protoss the option to either take the offensive (Blink) or the defensive one (PO range) first. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 30 2014 15:33 Advantageous wrote: Well I'm a protoss and I'm not a big fan of the MSC either, and I rarely rely on it for defensive purposes in early game (like I should) of TvP anyway. However, in PvP MSC does play a huge role in deflecting blink stalker all-ins with Recall and Nexus Cannon. We are, however, neglecting ZvP and the MSC's function there; but, let's be honest here... denying greedy play is a good thing :D. Edit: So I guess what I'm trying to say is that taking away it's vision wouldn't really change many match-ups other than PvP, sure in PvT there is still a possibility for a blink all-in, but Terrans have stim and marauders to deal with that, as well as bunkers if scouted properly. Vision change would be huge, if Protoss gets their MSC picked off when trying to blink all-in, the Terran can know the blink all-in is done and can transition. The main problem with blink play is that the Terran has no efficient way to know whether it is an all-in or a contain into macro game. The vision let's the Protoss see exactly where bunkers and units are. And it allows them to attack where they have the advantage, lower vision would make attacks much more risky which would balance out the risk and reward for this type of play. Also, you said denying greedy play is a good thing... However, PO allows Ps to go extremely greedy... So you have an issue there. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On January 30 2014 17:01 BurningRanger wrote: I still don't get what Photon Overcharge needs that huge range for (no1 replied when I asked earlier). I'd suggest to cut it down to maybe 7 or 8 and give it an upgrade to extend range to 13, maybe in Twilight Council. This would make Protoss less safe in the earlygame and still give it the same drop defense in mid- and lategame with the upgrade. Having the upgrade in Twilight Council would give Protoss the option to either take the offensive (Blink) or the defensive one (PO range) first. I think the range is to counter early tank pushes since tanks no longer need siege research. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 30 2014 17:01 BurningRanger wrote: I still don't get what Photon Overcharge needs that huge range for (no1 replied when I asked earlier). I'd suggest to cut it down to maybe 7 or 8 and give it an upgrade to extend range to 13, maybe in Twilight Council. This would make Protoss less safe in the earlygame and still give it the same drop defense in mid- and lategame with the upgrade. Having the upgrade in Twilight Council would give Protoss the option to either take the offensive (Blink) or the defensive one (PO range) first. PvP, 2,3,4 gate (and similar) rushes. If you don't have that much range, you can't cover your base and your opponent can just freely destroy all your buildings while you wait for that immortal or voidray or blink research or just those extra warp ins to finish. Even with 13range the aggressor often gets to destroy some buildings by sitting outside of 13range and shooting into the radius. Also basically all PvP expansion builds rely heavily on a powerful PO to prevent the opponent from just running into the main and defending the expo in general. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On January 30 2014 19:20 vthree wrote: I think the range is to counter early tank pushes since tanks no longer need siege research. Well, then a PO range upgrade would just need to be in a place, where it would be able to finish before the tank push hits. The Protoss would have to scout the tank push before, but Terrans need to scout, if the Protoss pushes early, too. | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On January 30 2014 19:28 Big J wrote: PvP, 2,3,4 gate (and similar) rushes. If you don't have that much range, you can't cover your base and your opponent can just freely destroy all your buildings while you wait for that immortal or voidray or blink research or just those extra warp ins to finish. Even with 13range the aggressor often gets to destroy some buildings by sitting outside of 13range and shooting into the radius. Also basically all PvP expansion builds rely heavily on a powerful PO to prevent the opponent from just running into the main and defending the expo in general. Put buildings closer to the Nexus to prevent them being sniped. Terrans somehow must manage to cover all their base, too. A sentry with forcefield and a semi-wallin at the main ramp maybe help to keep the opponent from running into the main. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27352 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 30 2014 19:41 BurningRanger wrote: Put buildings closer to the Nexus to prevent them being sniped. Terrans somehow must manage to cover all their base, too. A sentry with forcefield and a semi-wallin at the main ramp maybe help to keep the opponent from running into the main. yeah, and if you are worried to cover all your bases, don't expand! | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 30 2014 09:43 bo1b wrote: Also fuck playing mech vs zerg, turtle on three bases then move out with an unstoppable army is a god awful way to play imo. If that gets perfected (and I strongly feel it will), I can't see it not becoming the new broodlord infestor vs zerg, unstoppable outside of a few timings ? Mech vs Zerg is not at all unstoppable. Defending the 3-bases first timing is trivial, and even the mass Ravens phase afterwards can be handled fine by Swarm hosts, Spores and casters (Queens/infests/Vipers). And Zergs are the one who are strategically behind when it comes to mech TvZ, so the room for improvement lies in their side (i. e. you will see the strength of mech play in TvZ decrease over time rather than the contrary). | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On January 30 2014 19:20 vthree wrote: I think the range is to counter early tank pushes since tanks no longer need siege research. Yes but I think every Terran could live with a reintroducement of the Siege Mode research, if Photon Overcharge range was nerfed. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On January 30 2014 20:17 TheDwf wrote: ? Mech vs Zerg is not at all unstoppable. Defending the 3-bases first timing is trivial, and even the mass Ravens phase afterwards can be handled fine by Swarm hosts, Spores and casters (Queens/infests/Vipers). And Zergs are the one who are strategically behind when it comes to mech TvZ, so the room for improvement lies in their side (i. e. you will see the strength of mech play in TvZ decrease over time rather than the contrary). Sky terran is beatable on zergs side once it hits a critical point? I'm willing to accept that I'm playing it wrong, but once a certain amount of ravens are hit it feels almost impossible to win. In any event I think the improvement on zergs end will simply be ending the game before that status is reached. I guess we'll see, and I hope you're right, because its horribly boring to play against/watch | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27352 Posts
Frankly I don't get why more don't, given the huge bank and sole drawback of being pulled apart by WP. It's a style where the bank involved is huge. A Hydra hitsquad can deal with all but insane Zealot warpins. Plus once that forward spined position is established it cuts reinforcement time as well. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 30 2014 20:43 bo1b wrote: Sky terran is beatable on zergs side once it hits a critical point? I'm willing to accept that I'm playing it wrong, but once a certain amount of ravens are hit it feels almost impossible to win. In any event I think the improvement on zergs end will simply be ending the game before that status is reached. I guess we'll see, and I hope you're right, because its horribly boring to play against/watch KingKong won a game in which Happy had 31 Ravens, I suppose it falls under your notion of critical count? (; If you want to shorten your ZvMech ladder games, I suggest Soulkey's mutas/roaches/swarm host agression (see his games against Maru on Outboxer in Proleague and against Cure on Frost in IEM Qualifier). | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On January 30 2014 20:53 TheDwf wrote: KingKong won a game in which Happy had 31 Ravens, I suppose it falls under your notion of critical count? (; If you want to shorten your ZvMech ladder games, I suggest Soulkey's mutas/roaches/swarm host agression (see his games against Maru on Outboxer in Proleague and against Cure on Frost in IEM Qualifier). I main terran and dabble in zerg, but Soulkey's strategy seems way beyond lower level execution. I guess part of the problem is that the onus to out-control is on the Z. While the meching played has a relatively easy time (at least compared to MMMM) execution-wise. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On January 30 2014 21:05 Ghanburighan wrote: I main terran and dabble in zerg, but Soulkey's strategy seems way beyond lower level execution. I guess part of the problem is that the onus to out-control is on the Z. While the meching played has a relatively easy time (at least compared to MMMM) execution-wise. The requirements of TvP are way beyond low level Terrans since years and Blizzard has never acknowledged this; at least Zergs have the choice against mech since they can play the "camping" game as well. Hellions/Banshees is also very demanding if you're active with your units (and you're supposed to be); the initial opening is harder to play than Hellions + triple OC into bio. Defending multi-pronged agression with mech is not that easy; it's not Protoss, you have neither PO nor warp-ins or FFs to fix positioning or composition mistakes. | ||
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