|
On January 26 2014 10:08 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 00:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
Reapers are certainly needed.
Reapers now make it so you can usually (not always) scout the Protoss' evil plans.
I hate most how everything costs the same amount of gas.
Oracle = 300, DT = 250, Blink = 250, Regular Tech = 300 (robo double ups).
So sometimes you KNOW Protoss proxies, and that still tells you nothing. Gas timings are useless because they give no information. Guess that's why you poke the front to see what units have been made.
...
A ) Usually there's a stalker at your front, so it's hard to go out and scout with SCV/Marine.
B ) You cannot reliably and effectively poke until concussive OR stim OR Medivac tech.
C ) Poking against any agressive build is usually suicide a bad idea.
And lastly, the unitset doesn't spoil a lot of information, there's usually Stalkers and a MSC.
Please don't mention scan.
You need the reaper, which is fine. It gives a huge amount of information! Problem is, while the Reaper can give you a lot of information, it regularly happens that you do know -something- is off, but not -what- is off. This tells you you must either make 3/4 bunkers at blinkable spots, 4/5 bunkers at the front, 3/4 turrets around the base or 2 turrets in the mineral line. Picking wrong = usually game ending disadvantage.
You cannot expect Terrans to scout a main and a natural and an entire map with only a maximum of 2 reapers (the Reactor>double Reaper build).
This problem would be solved by differentiating gas costs a bit, so gas timings give information other than standard/cheese, but more like, standard/cheeseABC/cheeseDE/cheeseF so you can make educated guesses instead of roling a dice and hoping to get the right number out of six.
|
On January 27 2014 02:15 Dfine wrote:
Suggestion: what if protoss could use chrono boost on units like spell casters that would boosts the mana regen on the spell casters ?
At what pay-off?
I like the idea (25 Nexus energy for 25 Spellcaster energy) but there needs to be some kind of drawbacks and limitations to that. A little animation, a tell, so you can't warp in doublestorm Templar, does it have to be near the nexus, is there a cost? Chronoboost after upgrades is leftover in plenty and to give Protoss 4/5 'free' energy regenerating structures seems off. Maybe fleetbeacon expensive upgrade so it can't be used in timing attacks or in case of fuck-up. Is MSC excluded if it is not?
I love the idea to get a useful dump for lategame Chrono (Also, Chrono should affect Carriers BLIZZARD!!!), but you need to be careful, there's a reason Khaydarian Amulet was removed.
|
I feel like Blizzard screwed up what was turning out at first to be a pretty decent improvement over Wings of Liberty. They argued with the oracle(correctly) that it was too coin flippy, but instead of fixing that they just weighted the coin unfairly in Protosses favor with the speed buff. It needed more range and less damage IMO. They seem to be able to at least identify problems, but they wait too long or make bad changes that don't fix anything that they refuse to go back on
|
any reason why terran doesnt need earn so much points like zerg&protoss to get lvl35 carbot pics? :D
from lvl34 to 35 you need 225.000 points. Terran "only" need 222.500
|
On January 27 2014 05:11 Dingodile wrote:
any reason why terran doesnt need earn so much points like zerg&protoss to get lvl35 carbot pics? :D
from lvl34 to 35 you need 225.000 points. Terran "only" need 222.500
To compensate for the harder wins OBVIOUSLY haha
Probably a typo or a bug somewhere, nothing to look into 
|
The problem is when facing aggressive builds for terran is that yes there is a stalker at front and there's no way for terran to scout but reaper or scan. This has been going on since wol and it's ridiculous. This of course all being a result of early game WOL tvp. Well we're not there anymore. How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
If you're playing against a blink all in there always will be stalkers at your door.
I'd just like for DK to explain the justifications for a few of the games additions in HOTs. The Muta genen for instance. Okay, mines. Mines got nerfed. The regen didn't. TvZ games now feature 20-30 flying around picking off key terran structures such as reactors or killing 6-10 scvs, a turret here or there ,taking some fire, maybe one muta gets killed and then they go rest in some dead space for 40 seconds and they're back to full health. What the hell is that mechanic? All while the terrans timings that involved stim and mines got to shreds. Yes, maybe mines were a tad to strong so they got nerfed but the matchup has since swung massively the other way. How many games have we seen where terran didn't do massive damage with either bf hellion or cloaked banshee and won a macro game mine marine medivac lately? Zilch. It doesn't happen. Zerg just stays alive, goes 3 then 4 base, gets up a massive muta count and then just trades ling bane vs the terran army while keeping the mutas alive and eventually the mutas will be upon terran production or wiping out the third/4th eco and the game is done.
Same goes for the MSC core. What justification is there to introduce that in the game since WOL? was early game zerg buffed? no. Was early game terran buffed? Oh yes...reapers, hellbats and mines. The latter two have since been nerfed out of the game. So is the nexus overcharge and flying mothership core with it's vision and aggressive potential still justified? Not in my mind.
And so we wonder why the game is no longer fun to play, but more important no longer fun to watch. HOTs saw introduction to a bunch of new ideas that freshened up the game, some of those novelties have since been nerfed out of the game while the designs intended to counter those specific elements have been left untouched.
It really doesn't compute. Wow really, the faster and self healing mutas are now a problem after mines don't hurt them anymore? You don't say.
Oh what I'd give to hear it once again that terran is strong in the midgame.
|
On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here.
Edit: I do agree with you about mutalisks though. They're just as frustrating from a Protoss perspective, especially in the form of something else into muta switches. You have to prepare for mutas because if you don't, you're dead, but if you do and the switch never happens then you are stuck with a bunch of wasted resources in phoenixes. Right now they can be dealt with but if that insane hydra change goes through, I can't see ling/hydra into muta not becoming a huge problem. It wouldn't be so bad if non-phoenix units could defend them in a reasonable fashion, but in their current state, that is not the case. The Zerg has to make a mistake for blink or storm to actually kill mutas now.
|
Imo the provlem in early game TvP are the Protoss allins, especially oracle allins. they force you into early gas for reapers and a reactor with a lot of marines, often an early ebay as well. The opening is so uneconomical but also doesnt give you any tech. Imo turrets without ebay could solve it, so you could skip the mass marine+reactor part and expand of a reaper and build an early techlab for stim or a factory.
|
On January 29 2014 23:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here.
Would it tho, MSC maybe shuts it down pretty decently
|
On January 29 2014 23:49 Big J wrote:
Imo the provlem in early game TvP are the Protoss allins, especially oracle allins. they force you into early gas for reapers and a reactor with a lot of marines, often an early ebay as well. The opening is so uneconomical but also doesnt give you any tech. Imo turrets without ebay could solve it, so you could skip the mass marine+reactor part and expand of a reaper and build an early techlab for stim or a factory.
That'd be an interesting thing to try I think. Especially given the Oracle buffs recently. Although it'd mess about with early DTs I guess; not sure if that'd do much to the matchup though.
On January 29 2014 23:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 23:16 Ben... wrote:On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here. Would it tho, MSC maybe shuts it down pretty decently
Depends on timing I think; you'd have to see how it all lined up. Also I doubt the basic attack would do much to deter Marauders so the only thing that would help from an MSC is Overcharge. Even then Marauders are pretty tanky and hard to take down.
|
On January 29 2014 23:49 Big J wrote:
Imo the provlem in early game TvP are the Protoss allins, especially oracle allins. they force you into early gas for reapers and a reactor with a lot of marines, often an early ebay as well. The opening is so uneconomical but also doesnt give you any tech. Imo turrets without ebay could solve it, so you could skip the mass marine+reactor part and expand of a reaper and build an early techlab for stim or a factory.
I think the problem is not the allins themselves, but them actually not being allins.
An allin should be "I put everything on that card and hope to win with it. If it doesn't work, I lose." All the Protoss earlygame aggression openings (so called allins) can easily be follwed up with a switch to a rather normal macro game. If the allin fails, they may just throw a Nexus down and hide behind that Photon Overcharge and macro up.
But that's not all. They can also follow up with more aggression through some 2 base "allin". So as opponent you still have a hard time knowing, if you can go macro after you defended the 1 base aggression or if you have to prepare for a 2 base aggression.
I know Protoss needs the PO for PvP, but honestly... I think PvZ and PvT shouldn't be dumb just to save PvP.
One question btw... for PvP... does PO really need that huge range? What for? Would a PO range nerf destroy PvP earlygame?
Imo the game would be much more interesting and a lot more fun to watch, if Protoss wasn't so safe in the earlygame.
|
I still don't see what exactly happened to terran since hots that justifies the massive influence of the msc? ... aside from protoss not doing well in tournaments of course. Well... let's have protoss do well in tournaments for a while...see how well that does the game. Sadly, I don't think many people want to watch it. I for one won't.
Imo the overcharge should do what the timewarp does. Slow units in it's vicinity. Now that would make sense. It should be a big timewarp. That would be a strong defensive ability that doesn't allow for no units to be made, it just allows protoss units to deal with stimmed marines and lots of speedlings. And it would be purely defensive. It helps protoss, without letting them get away with having no units since the effect wouldn't do actual damage.
|
On January 30 2014 00:29 BurningRanger wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 23:49 Big J wrote:
Imo the provlem in early game TvP are the Protoss allins, especially oracle allins. they force you into early gas for reapers and a reactor with a lot of marines, often an early ebay as well. The opening is so uneconomical but also doesnt give you any tech. Imo turrets without ebay could solve it, so you could skip the mass marine+reactor part and expand of a reaper and build an early techlab for stim or a factory. I think the problem is not the allins themselves, but them actually not being allins. An allin should be "I put everything on that card and hope to win with it. If it doesn't work, I lose." All the Protoss earlygame aggression openings (so called allins) can easily be follwed up with a switch to a rather normal macro game. If the allin fails, they may just throw a Nexus down and hide behind that Photon Overcharge and macro up. But that's not all. They can also follow up with more aggression through some 2 base "allin". So as opponent you still have a hard time knowing, if you can go macro after you defended the 1 base aggression or if you have to prepare for a 2 base aggression. I know Protoss needs the PO for PvP, but honestly... I think PvZ and PvT shouldn't be dumb just to save PvP. One question btw... for PvP... does PO really need that huge range? What for? Would a PO range nerf destroy PvP earlygame? Imo the game would be much more interesting and a lot more fun to watch, if Protoss wasn't so safe in the earlygame.
Yes, it really does need that range. Only way imo to fix PO for other matchups and still make it useful for PvP is to lower the base damage and give it bonus damage against shields
|
At least on EU high masters 2 base blink seems to have become the standard in PvT, and boy is it frustrating to play against. I actually do manage to scout it in time now (and if even I dont I have to prepare for blink anyway), but whatever I do seem to end up behind in the end. Roughly half of the time I outright die because I didnt predict his moves correctly and got all my marines in a timewarp. The other half I barely survive and the game resets into an even situation or it turns out he didnt go blink at all but is going HTs back and and has a massive upgrade lead. Its the combination of all-in strength and unpredictability with really strong transitions that really frustrates me. I can no longer do any kind of economic or aggressive plays early on because I will just die once the stalkers hit.
For all I care they can leave others aspects of protoss unchanged but for fucks sake do something about this blink bullshit.
|
Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 30 2014 01:03 Bagi wrote:
At least on EU high masters 2 base blink seems to have become the standard in PvT, and boy is it frustrating to play against. I actually do manage to scout it in time now (and if even I dont I have to prepare for blink anyway), but whatever I do seem to end up behind in the end. Roughly half of the time I outright die because I didnt predict his moves correctly and got all my marines in a timewarp. The other half I barely survive and the game resets into an even situation or it turns out he didnt go blink at all but is going HTs back and and has a massive upgrade lead. Its the combination of all-in strength and unpredictability with really strong transitions that really frustrates me. I can no longer do any kind of economic or aggressive plays early on because I will just die once the stalkers hit.
For all I care they can leave others aspects of protoss unchanged but for fucks sake do something about this blink bullshit.
We. Need. Different. Map-pool.
Those magic words works. Now almost every map in the pool is blink friendly, why? Ladder maps are horrible for me personally and I am a Protoss player! Almost every map in the pool has a lot of free airspace. Cool, mutaplay, mutas can regen almost without any risk if you go too deep into different tech than Stargate, woohoo! Cool, drop play everywhere and if there's any risk involved, just turn around ferrarivacs(well, this stops when the templar arives  , but other races don't have feedback). And the last thing - ORACLE! Oracle can go into the base basically undetected and kill tons of stuff and then retreat, because airspace. This is what I liked on the starbow maps I saw(I saw some youtube games, I don't like the mod itself, but I don't hate it and I can agree it has some good ideas, eg. maps ) - lack of free airspace. You're going to drop me? Cool, but pay some risk, you can't drop from almost 360 degrees 
I can be wrong, but all the problems about Protoss early game is because of the map design. Take away the free airspace, so you can intercept oracle flying in better(therefore you can protect your mineral line and your buildings at the same time better), stop doing main with "woo, 270 degrees blinkable possibility) and then, I think, we can go and see whether the nerfs are actually needed
|
On January 30 2014 01:02 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 00:29 BurningRanger wrote:On January 29 2014 23:49 Big J wrote:
Imo the provlem in early game TvP are the Protoss allins, especially oracle allins. they force you into early gas for reapers and a reactor with a lot of marines, often an early ebay as well. The opening is so uneconomical but also doesnt give you any tech. Imo turrets without ebay could solve it, so you could skip the mass marine+reactor part and expand of a reaper and build an early techlab for stim or a factory. I think the problem is not the allins themselves, but them actually not being allins. An allin should be "I put everything on that card and hope to win with it. If it doesn't work, I lose." All the Protoss earlygame aggression openings (so called allins) can easily be follwed up with a switch to a rather normal macro game. If the allin fails, they may just throw a Nexus down and hide behind that Photon Overcharge and macro up. But that's not all. They can also follow up with more aggression through some 2 base "allin". So as opponent you still have a hard time knowing, if you can go macro after you defended the 1 base aggression or if you have to prepare for a 2 base aggression. I know Protoss needs the PO for PvP, but honestly... I think PvZ and PvT shouldn't be dumb just to save PvP. One question btw... for PvP... does PO really need that huge range? What for? Would a PO range nerf destroy PvP earlygame? Imo the game would be much more interesting and a lot more fun to watch, if Protoss wasn't so safe in the earlygame. Yes, it really does need that range.
You forgot to answer the "What for?" part.
Can't you just stay closer to your Nexus when defending?
|
On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Same goes for the MSC core. What justification is there to introduce that in the game since WOL? was early game zerg buffed? no. Was early game terran buffed? Oh yes...reapers, hellbats and mines. The latter two have since been nerfed out of the game. So is the nexus overcharge and flying mothership core with it's vision and aggressive potential still justified? Not in my mind.
The Msc was introduced to make PvP less horrible, which I think it managed to do. To counteract the better defense of protoss, they buffed the medivacs with charge so that Terran would get more agressive options, which introduced a lot of fun gameplay and micro in my eyes. The mothership core just is a little bit too strong, and Terran lategame is a little bit too weak since the hellbat nerfs imo, but the unit itself is not that bad.
I'd personally love to see TvP fixed by making the hellbat a useful mid-lategame unit again that is easily accesible so that Terran can win games in lategame and don't have to do damage in early game against protoss. Maybe remove the biological tag, and give them an ability that allows them to be healed by medivacs, so that archons don't do bonus damage against them. That, or remove the biological tag entirely and slightly buff them (something like more attack without blue flame, or no upgrade needed to transform helions into hellbats and vice versa).
|
Can I just leave this here?
|
On January 29 2014 23:57 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 23:16 Ben... wrote:On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here. Would it tho, MSC maybe shuts it down pretty decently Add in a bunker then the game is done. Remember the MSC itself has pretty poor damage output. Killing one marauder with it takes a long time, killing more than one would take too long before game ending damage would already be done. You have to remember that with concussive shell, marauders can basically kite gateway units and workers indefinitely. Marauder rushes hit pretty quick, before Photon Overcharge would be ready and before there would be anything close to enough stalkers to have a chance (you can't defend marauder rushes with zealots remember. Concussive shell makes them unable to ever attack with even minimal micro).
It was removed for the game for sound reasons. Adding it back in now would not accomplish anything but make the PvT matchup even more dumb than it already is.
Fixing the matchup should involve making it so both sides can equally defend things and allow longer games. This would just make the matchup even more coinflippy and unstable.
|
Bunch of maps that used to be longused GSL maps to show you guys that it is not the maps that have changed and made blink allins stronger. Blink allins have always been viable on certain map layouts. Yet with the much better HotS blink allins those layouts suddenly should be a no-go? It's not the maps that should be streamlined even more, it's the allin that should not be able to beat an opponent who scouted it as soon as reasonable. Even if he is playing on Yeonsu.
Antiga Shipyard, Cloud Kingdom, Metropolis, Atlas, Abyssal City
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Shakuras Plateau, Tal'Darim, Dual Site
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
XNC, Metalopolis
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
The list could obviously be extended throughout time with less used maps, from Star Station and Derelicted Watcher to Terminus and Lost/Shattered Temple. And other maps - like bel shire beach - still give the blink allins a lot of ledges and attack points, even if they might not be quite the category of the above.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c0/Antiga_Shipyard.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/59/ESV_Cloud_Kingdom.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/51/Metropolis.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/3/32/Atlas.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/69/AbyssalCity.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/ba/Shakuras_Plateau_2.0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/1/13/Tal%27Darim_Altar.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/bd/Dual_Site.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/55/Xel%27Naga_Caverns.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/9b/Metalopolis.jpg)
