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On January 24 2014 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? That hydra buff came out of nowhere though. I mean...what? >_>
It doesn't come out of nowhere really. If you don't factor in Daedalus, most zergs who haven't gone for SH-style or mutas have died to protoss recently. If you're going to discourage SH passive play, it makes sense to buff another type of play that isn't doing so great. Maybe this isn't the right buff, but it's not something I'm not ready to try to play against.
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On January 24 2014 23:00 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:54 Bagi wrote:On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? The hydra buff is too much, and the proposed changes do very little for TvP. The patch feels more like a stab in the dark for me. Don't you have a problem with the notion that this patch is a "stab in the dark", considering it tries to fix (and granted, sometimes fail) every complaint that the community has had on recently?
All of them fail, 10 seconds from PO is absolutely meaningless. The ghost buff pigeonholes terran further into a midgame timing, it does nothing for early or late game. Meanwhile they introduce changes like the tempest and hydra ones that have enormous potential to break the game even further.
Its terrible.
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On January 24 2014 23:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? That hydra buff came out of nowhere though. I mean...what? >_> It doesn't come out of nowhere really. If you don't factor in Daedalus, most zergs who haven't gone for SH-style or mutas have died to protoss recently. If you're going to discourage SH passive play, it makes sense to buff another type of play that isn't doing so great. Maybe this isn't the right buff, but it's not something I'm not ready to try to play against.
I suppose but I'm more thinking along the lines of the fact that I doubt saving some gas on Hydralisks is going to make such a massive difference to result in a switch in styles given the proven effectiveness of other approaches. *shrug* Could be wrong I guess but it just seems like completely the wrong thing to focus on. Its just going to result in more all-ins.
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On January 24 2014 22:41 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:16 Swisslink wrote:On January 24 2014 22:09 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 21:58 Bagi wrote:On January 24 2014 21:54 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 21:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Just when Terran was looking interesting with more options besides MMM we get this ridiculous race distribution in code S... Yeah, Zerg's qualification rate is insane. Protoss almost as high but couldn't knock Zerg off that top spot. Yeah its totally the zerg thats the problem... The responses to this Code A are so funny. Zerg gets the highest qualification rate followed by Protoss with a very strong showing, Terran bombs hard. But lets ignore the high rate of qualification for Zerg because it suits us. Not really the reason. The problem is that, while in ZvT the Winrates are quite okay, there was only one Terran beating a Protoss in the entire Code A season. So yeah, ignoring the high rate for Zerg isn't a bad thing, because Zerg do about as well as they should do in both matchups (maybe slightly too good if you look at the Win%, but that's okay for such a small number of games.) Aha, and finally someone comes along with something other than blind anger. Kudos to you, sir. So lets see how constructive we can be with someone who isn't raging. Looking at the situation as a whole what seems to be happening is Zerg murders Protoss on both Daedalus and Heavy Rain (this seems to have been overlooked and I might be missing something here but by my count Zerg is 4-1 on Heavy Rain from Code A, a better win rate than Daedalus actually). Zerg is, in fact, 11-5 in sets in Code A against Protoss. In order to match the Zerg strength, Protoss utterly destroys Terran to claim their own spots (as is fairly self evident by the amount of indignation going around). This could actually be a somewhat feasible system if Terran was strong against Zerg but they're not, in fact they've got a losing rate against Zerg as well. So Zerg feeds off both Terran and Protoss and Protoss beat the Terrans down to secure their own places (which is probably where this anti-Protoss tunnel vision comes from because it feels more focussed). The real question is whether you want a P>T>Z>P system or whether you want P=Z=T. But lets assume the latter for now. What to be done? Well one interesting little thing gleaned from examining Code A is that Heavy Rain is the map that seems to bounce back and forth between Terran win and Protoss win (its 4-3 P-T by my count). I can't help but feel that looking at this map specifically might well provide some extremely useful insights beyond the "OMG NERF X, Y AND Z". Indication there that something about that map helps to fix the matchup. Can't say I sat and watched every game of Code A (there's a lot and I'm usually in work) but when I go home I think I'm going to be reviewing those seven games.
Well, I think the discussion about Daedalus is useless, everyone knows this map is horrendeously bad and totally unfair, if you got to play against a Zerg. I'd say the majority of the Zerg wins comes thanks to the "no-veto"-system in Code A, because on most maps I didn't feel like Zerg has done too well against Protoss lately. But they just always pick Daedalus... and win.
I just think that the Zerg RACE isn't really a problem right now, because Daedalus just favores them so heavily that getting rid of this stupid map would solve most of the problems Protoss has against Zerg right now. I might be wrong, but that's just my impression. And generally speaking, I think changing Zerg, especially Swarmhosts, is quite risky - and that's the only thing Protoss complain about.
PvZ: If you change the way Swarmhosts work, or buff Protoss against this style it'll snowball out of control quite rapidly. Simply because Zerg doesn't really have an answer to a Skytoss + HT lategame. Zergs anti air is bad and it's going to stay that way until LotV (hopefully they'll change it then) and right now Zerg needs Swarmhosts to not die in every late game scenario.
TvZ: Quite the same, if the Terran goes mech. I don't think it's possible to fight a late game army without Swarmhosts. And I haven't seen anyone doing it yet.
And overall I'd just say: These matchups can be balanced quite simply without changing the races at all. If Daedalus is gone, PvZ will be fine (though annoying to watch AND play... but that's a design issue, can't be solved with a balance patch unfortunately. I think it's the same as in WoL, PvZ was balanced back then, but a stupid matchup - now it's quite balanced as well, but once again a stupid matchup, even though for different reasons).
I might be completely mistaken, but I think in PvT the situation is quite different. Terran just seems to fight an uphill battle from the very beginning, with a ticking timebomb, being the point where the Protoss army just rolls over the Terran. Combined with all the midgame shenanigans like Blink Stalker all-ins AND the safety the MSC provides, I think the matchup isn't as easy to balance as PvZ/TvZ just by adjusting the maps.
And generally speaking, a 80% winrate is quite a lot more alarming than a 57%/52% Zerg has right now against P/T 
As mentioned: In Bo3, I absolutely agree that Zerg is too strong right now, but... Daedalus happens quite often :-P
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On January 24 2014 23:13 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 22:41 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 22:16 Swisslink wrote:On January 24 2014 22:09 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 21:58 Bagi wrote:On January 24 2014 21:54 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 21:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Just when Terran was looking interesting with more options besides MMM we get this ridiculous race distribution in code S... Yeah, Zerg's qualification rate is insane. Protoss almost as high but couldn't knock Zerg off that top spot. Yeah its totally the zerg thats the problem... The responses to this Code A are so funny. Zerg gets the highest qualification rate followed by Protoss with a very strong showing, Terran bombs hard. But lets ignore the high rate of qualification for Zerg because it suits us. Not really the reason. The problem is that, while in ZvT the Winrates are quite okay, there was only one Terran beating a Protoss in the entire Code A season. So yeah, ignoring the high rate for Zerg isn't a bad thing, because Zerg do about as well as they should do in both matchups (maybe slightly too good if you look at the Win%, but that's okay for such a small number of games.) Aha, and finally someone comes along with something other than blind anger. Kudos to you, sir. So lets see how constructive we can be with someone who isn't raging. Looking at the situation as a whole what seems to be happening is Zerg murders Protoss on both Daedalus and Heavy Rain (this seems to have been overlooked and I might be missing something here but by my count Zerg is 4-1 on Heavy Rain from Code A, a better win rate than Daedalus actually). Zerg is, in fact, 11-5 in sets in Code A against Protoss. In order to match the Zerg strength, Protoss utterly destroys Terran to claim their own spots (as is fairly self evident by the amount of indignation going around). This could actually be a somewhat feasible system if Terran was strong against Zerg but they're not, in fact they've got a losing rate against Zerg as well. So Zerg feeds off both Terran and Protoss and Protoss beat the Terrans down to secure their own places (which is probably where this anti-Protoss tunnel vision comes from because it feels more focussed). The real question is whether you want a P>T>Z>P system or whether you want P=Z=T. But lets assume the latter for now. What to be done? Well one interesting little thing gleaned from examining Code A is that Heavy Rain is the map that seems to bounce back and forth between Terran win and Protoss win (its 4-3 P-T by my count). I can't help but feel that looking at this map specifically might well provide some extremely useful insights beyond the "OMG NERF X, Y AND Z". Indication there that something about that map helps to fix the matchup. Can't say I sat and watched every game of Code A (there's a lot and I'm usually in work) but when I go home I think I'm going to be reviewing those seven games. Well, I think the discussion about Daedalus is useless, everyone knows this map is horrendeously bad and totally unfair, if you got to play against a Zerg. I'd say the majority of the Zerg wins comes thanks to the "no-veto"-system in Code A, because on most maps I didn't feel like Zerg has done too well against Protoss lately. But they just always pick Daedalus... and win. I just think that the Zerg RACE isn't really a problem right now, because Daedalus just favores them so heavily that getting rid of this stupid map would solve most of the problems Protoss has against Zerg right now. I might be wrong, but that's just my impression. And generally speaking, I think changing Zerg, especially Swarmhosts, is quite risky - and that's the only thing Protoss complain about. PvZ: If you change the way Swarmhosts work, or buff Protoss against this style it'll snowball out of control quite rapidly. Simply because Zerg doesn't really have an answer to a Skytoss + HT lategame. Zergs anti air is bad and it's going to stay that way until LotV (hopefully they'll change it then) and right now Zerg needs Swarmhosts to not die in every late game scenario. TvZ: Quite the same, if the Terran goes mech. I don't think it's possible to fight a late game army without Swarmhosts. And I haven't seen anyone doing it yet. And overall I'd just say: These matchups can be balanced quite simply without changing the races at all. If Daedalus is gone, PvZ will be fine (though annoying to watch AND play... but that's a design issue, can't be solved with a balance patch unfortunately. I think it's the same as in WoL, PvZ was balanced back then, but a stupid matchup - now it's quite balanced as well, but once again a stupid matchup, even though for different reasons). I might be completely mistaken, but I think in PvT the situation is quite different. Terran just seems to fight an uphill battle from the very beginning, with a ticking timebomb, being the point where the Protoss army just rolls over the Terran. Combined with all the midgame shenanigans like Blink Stalker all-ins AND the safety the MSC provides, I think the matchup isn't as easy to balance as PvZ/TvZ just by adjusting the maps. And generally speaking, a 80% winrate is quite a lot more alarming than a 57%/52% Zerg has right now against P/T As mentioned: In Bo3, I absolutely agree that Zerg is too strong right now, but... Daedalus happens quite often :-P
But then you have the Heavy Rain anomaly. Ok, we're working with small numbers across the board here but the fact there are maps which balance off the winrate starts to suggest that it IS possible to fix this with maps and some small pokes at units.
The question is can that adjustment be replicated. Its a shame you can't isolate different variables on a map like you can with an experiment and test them for effects easily. It'd be such valuable information. 
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On January 24 2014 23:10 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:04 Nebuchad wrote:On January 24 2014 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? That hydra buff came out of nowhere though. I mean...what? >_> It doesn't come out of nowhere really. If you don't factor in Daedalus, most zergs who haven't gone for SH-style or mutas have died to protoss recently. If you're going to discourage SH passive play, it makes sense to buff another type of play that isn't doing so great. Maybe this isn't the right buff, but it's not something I'm not ready to try to play against. I suppose but I'm more thinking along the lines of the fact that I doubt saving some gas on Hydralisks is going to make such a massive difference to result in a switch in styles given the proven effectiveness of other approaches. *shrug* Could be wrong I guess but it just seems like completely the wrong thing to focus on. All it will do is make it so hydra/ling into muta is even stronger, forcing Protoss to get splash in order to get a third, and enables Stephano-style super fast max builds that are boring to watch and play with/against. It won't solve any of the actual problems with the matchup, like mass muta switches and the whole mess of the swarmhost/static defense versus Protoss air army thing.
With the airtoss vs. swarmhost deathball, they're getting into a paradox not unlike the infestor/broodlord vs immortal/sentry paradox. To fix the matchup, both would have to be nerfed at the same time or else one side would completely dominate the other the majority of the time.
On January 24 2014 23:01 bo1b wrote:
This would be fixable so fucking quickly if they made time warp cost like 125 energy, reduced vision of msc by 5 or so, nerfed muta health regen slightly, un-nerfed the widowmine so its like 90% of its old strength, and then balanced from there
Exactly. They always refuse to go back on a balance change, no matter how bad a change has proven to be. Oracle change that was unsuccessful in making it more skillful to use? Leave it in. Muta buffs that didn't solve what they were supposed to and instead broke other matchups? Left in. Extreme nerfs to hellbats because they refused to remove the bio tag? Still in the game. They have a history of doing that all the way back to 2010 Wing of Liberty. Just look at all the failed attempts at fixing 4gate vs 4gate PvP. None of them but the last two did anything to actually fix PvP but instead had massive repercussions in other matchups and killed off a bunch of builds that had previously been viable, primarily pressure builds. Instead Protoss was forced into what they are now, a race that either all-ins or turtles.
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Sc2 = dead game. I came back from a 1 year hiatus (I'm masters terran) and the game is in utter shambles IMO. The only fun MU to watch is TvZ and TvZ. Anything with protoss is boring, predictable and cringe-worthy since most toss just snowball so hard against terran. Even if the terran gets a leg up, in my mind I think, doesn't matter the toss will just 1a his army on 1 hotkey and win with ease.
It reminds of Blord/infestor era where queens enabled zerg to do whatever they pleased right off the bat. Why in a game that's been out for YEARS is this still a problem? Why are toss jumping at the gun saying that there are no good terrans (Code S). Doesn't everyone want a balanced game enabling more viewers and growing the game?....
Keep in mind I don't want terrans to be OP again either. And I wholeheartedly agree that terran used to be OP and I would abuse mechanics as well. But that doesn't mean its fair.
Why do you think League of Legends is so popular? Veto system allows people to not bitch about OP champs (and its the player's fault for not banning something they think is OP). I wouldn't even say the game is easier and more appealing either. It's far from the truth when you watch games with protoss involved... It's very sad. I love this game so much but its absolutely disgusting to play and watch with protoss so strong right now. I didn't even mention zerg either. Every game is get 40 mutas and fly them around uncontested. It's so stale and boring to watch but it's not the players fault for abusing mechanics.
Thus, it IS a design issue. This game is dead and further degradation will only lead to SC2 becoming undead and eating brains. The design of EVERY race needs a complete overhaul as HOTs literally destroyed the game IMO.
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On January 24 2014 21:54 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 21:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Just when Terran was looking interesting with more options besides MMM we get this ridiculous race distribution in code S... Yeah, Zerg's qualification rate is insane. Protoss almost as high but couldn't knock Zerg off that top spot.
Oh god! You're so right! Only 11 out of 17 Toss qualified while 11 out of 16 Zergs did! So different.. Oh and would you look at that, there are 15 Toss in Code S but only 13 Zergs..hmm, could it be that the fact that more of the best Toss were already in Code S was why it was tied in Code A??
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I just came back to Starcraft II for the second time in HotS. I think my experiences playing mech have had some great ups, and some bad downs. Now that Zerg's know to make swarm hosts vs mech I can no longer push, get picked off any time I retreat, and get killed by free units before I can get the units / tech needed to deal with them.
When I started playing HotS I knew from the very beginning that a unit that spawned Targetable units would destroy mech since tanks hurt your own units. Brood Lords were fine because vikings had the range to advance on them, but swarm hosts if you have any fair amount before Terran has air or PDD its suicide to attack into them. If you retreat you die. If you defend you die unless you have enough bases first. The range is rediculous. What's with all the units being better than siege tanks at far ranges all of a sudden? Just on paper I really don't know how this made it into SCII, by design it's terrible. They basically made the lurker into a broken designed unit that you can't even really dodge its attacks. Mark my words this will be the most complained about unit in HotS in the end.
Second is the oracle. No on asked for a buff, and why does this do so much dps? It's basically a banshee that is faster and easier to micro, with far more DPS. It's risk reward is one of the best in the game if not the best in the game. I've scouted these, prepared, and still lost 20+ scvs just because it's dps is so high. No one unit should be able to kill that fast much less a easy to micro fast air unit. I don't think I have to explain this one as much as the swarm hosts, I think the swarm hosts still need some time before people figure out how broken it is, but oracles everyone knows.
I could get into more units that hots added but I think I officially hate HotS now. WoL was so much better even at its core ( all they had to do was fix bl/infestor at the end ).
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While everyone got new toys and improved older units, terrans got everything reverted.
Hellbats were supposed to help with zealots remax and death ball in general > nerfed
Widow mine (not sure what was it purpose in the 1st place as 2food unit) replaced tanks becouse everything in this game is so freaking fast now. Tanks pay off for immobility isnt worth it at all in bio based strategy. Mines got nerfed instead of rework to 1 food and change it role to support rather then main splash dmg.
New thor AA mod is useless in 95% cases as if you build thors you most likely go for mech and late game"mech" is mass air anyway so vikings > thors as AA.
New ravens are great and were more needed in gglord/winfestor days but they are still expensive and require a lot of time to transition into and make boring games.
So that's it terrans have those new tools while other races got mothership core, oracle, swarm host (brood lord made boring game you say ? Hey let's make almost same unit in next expansion!) viper, new muta.
This game would be easier to balance if units at its core werent actually boring or badly designed. Make units that have high micro potential and then fix stats etc. instead of implementing tempests and swarm hosts.
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On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:
While everyone got new toys and improved older units, terrans got everything reverted.
Hellbats were supposed to help with zealots remax and death ball in general > nerfed
They were supposed to help Mech with those things, and they do.
On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:
Widow mine (not sure what was it purpose in the 1st place as 2food unit) replaced tanks becouse everything in this game is so freaking fast now. Tanks pay off for immobility isnt worth it at all in bio based strategy. Mines got nerfed instead of rework to 1 food and change it role to support rather then main splash dmg.
It is still around and being used a lot. Haven't seen "widow mines being reverted".
On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:
New thor AA mod is useless in 95% cases as if you build thors you most likely go for mech and late game"mech" is mass air anyway so vikings > thors as AA.
So your complaint is that Terran doesn't need that because they had good enough antiair all along, well, happens. It's still not "reverted".
On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:
New ravens are great and were more needed in gglord/winfestor days but they are still expensive and require a lot of time to transition into and make boring games.
OK, so you don't like this new toy and therefore it is "reverted"...
On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:So that's it terrans have those new tools while other races got mothership core, oracle, swarm host (brood lord made boring game you say ? Hey let's make almost same unit in next expansion!) viper, new muta.
Speedbooster Medivacs, new Mech upgrades, new reapers, slightly better tanks (no siege upgrade + 0.2 faster attack speed)...
to name a few of the things that you "forgot". But hey, opening with new reapers every game surely is exactly the same as it has always been, right?
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On January 25 2014 21:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2014 20:39 Tomasy wrote:
While everyone got new toys and improved older units, terrans got everything reverted.
Hellbats were supposed to help with zealots remax and death ball in general > nerfed They were supposed to help Mech with those things, and they do.
Actually if you remember early Hots videos (or try to look them up on YT) hellbats were actually designed as a help against chargelots in general. Blizzard mentioned a couple of times that chargelots are a problem against terran in the late game and that is the reason they are introducing more tanky helion to help with that.
But hellbats didn't do that at all. They are extremely valuable with mech but they did nothing for bio.
And as far as reapers go (I didn't quote that part of your post) they are sure a nice addition but also obligatory build against protoss. So they didn't add anything for TvP, they just help you survive against plethora of builds protoss can go for.
I would rather open 1 rax fast expand as in WoL to be honest because that build was a stronger macro build than going for 1-2 reapers as you have to do now.
Overall they are a nice addition but it sucks that they are basically only way to open TvP. In that regard they don't give any edge against protoss, they just equalize the playing field to an extent (you can still die to all ins or cheese from protoss).
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Reapers are certainly needed.
Reapers now make it so you can usually (not always) scout the Protoss' evil plans.
I hate most how everything costs the same amount of gas.
Oracle = 300, DT = 250, Blink = 250, Regular Tech = 300 (robo double ups).
So sometimes you KNOW Protoss proxies, and that still tells you nothing. Gas timings are useless because they give no information.
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The Widow mine is an interesting unit to me, interesting as in maybe bad but not sure. It is a mech unit with supposedly a purpose in a mech composition, space control most likely. But probably due to it's long build time and high supply, it's almost never worth building them.
The most solid role seems to be with bio, in one MU. With mech, it barely has a place in the early game for a bit of defense and sometimes as anti BC in a mech vs bio TvT.
If it doesn't find a solid role in a mech composition, i hope it will be changed in some way. It's a cool unit that could make mech more interesting.
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On January 26 2014 00:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
Reapers are certainly needed.
Reapers now make it so you can usually (not always) scout the Protoss' evil plans.
I hate most how everything costs the same amount of gas.
Oracle = 300, DT = 250, Blink = 250, Regular Tech = 300 (robo double ups).
So sometimes you KNOW Protoss proxies, and that still tells you nothing. Gas timings are useless because they give no information.
Guess that's why you poke the front to see what units have been made.
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On January 24 2014 23:05 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:00 Nebuchad wrote:On January 24 2014 22:54 Bagi wrote:On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? The hydra buff is too much, and the proposed changes do very little for TvP. The patch feels more like a stab in the dark for me. Don't you have a problem with the notion that this patch is a "stab in the dark", considering it tries to fix (and granted, sometimes fail) every complaint that the community has had on recently? All of them fail, 10 seconds from PO is absolutely meaningless. The ghost buff pigeonholes terran further into a midgame timing, it does nothing for early or late game. Meanwhile they introduce changes like the tempest and hydra ones that have enormous potential to break the game even further. Its terrible.
Yep, they've lost their minds. It's like they either don't understand the problems ( Does David Kim even play anymore? ), or they try to patch it up with bandaids in all the wrong places.
On January 26 2014 10:08 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2014 00:01 SC2Toastie wrote:
Reapers are certainly needed.
Reapers now make it so you can usually (not always) scout the Protoss' evil plans.
I hate most how everything costs the same amount of gas.
Oracle = 300, DT = 250, Blink = 250, Regular Tech = 300 (robo double ups).
So sometimes you KNOW Protoss proxies, and that still tells you nothing. Gas timings are useless because they give no information. Guess that's why you poke the front to see what units have been made.
Poke with what? Marines? lol.
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I think its silly to put the blame of blink allins on maps. I mean, do we want to add another limitation to mapmaking? We are already accounting for a hundred and one things to keep basic ladder maps "fair", and most of it is due to protoss design and forcefields. Now you guys want to add "limitations to blink all ins" to the list?
Just nerf the damn all in, its what they did to 1-1-1 and its not like terran ceased to exist as a result.
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On January 26 2014 18:41 Bagi wrote:
I think its silly to put the blame of blink allins on maps. I mean, do we want to add another limitation to mapmaking? We are already accounting for a hundred and one things to keep basic ladder maps "fair", and most of it is due to protoss design and forcefields. Now you guys want to add "limitations to blink all ins" to the list?
Just nerf the damn all in, its what they did to 1-1-1 and its not like terran ceased to exist as a result.
Really the only nerf that needs to be made is to the MsC, blink all-ins are only as powerful as they are because the MsC takes the place of the Robo & Obs, allowing for a cheaper (75 less gas, 125 less minerals), faster (30s build time vs 65 for robo + 30 for observer) and more powerful (due to combat abilitiy + time warp) blink all-in than was previously possible. It would also fix the problem of Terran having no aggressive options before ~9 minutes. Not changing the MsC just means aggressive Protoss tech is going to have to be weakened in the same way Gateway units are weakened because of Warp Gate.
The problem is that Protoss rely so heavily on the MsC now (and for good reason given it's strength) that any significant changes to the MsC would fuck Protoss over pretty handily. And since the unit apparently adds stability to PvP (I don't watch enough PvP to confirm this personally), and given Blizzard's track record about such things, It seems highly unlikely the MsC will be touched in any significant way.
edit: I really don't think any nerf to blink could be done without really destroying the utility of the spell in macro situations (i.e. increasing research even further or increasing cost).
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On January 24 2014 23:05 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 23:00 Nebuchad wrote:On January 24 2014 22:54 Bagi wrote:On January 24 2014 22:52 Nebuchad wrote:
So can we agree that we finally have a patch that makes a lot of sense?
What's lacking:
- Something about Msc vision.
What's wrong:
- Probably the way protoss has been buffed vs swarmhost late, a less passive buff would be better, and one that can't help vs P and T.
All the rest seems pretty decent, right? The hydra buff is too much, and the proposed changes do very little for TvP. The patch feels more like a stab in the dark for me. Don't you have a problem with the notion that this patch is a "stab in the dark", considering it tries to fix (and granted, sometimes fail) every complaint that the community has had on recently? All of them fail, 10 seconds from PO is absolutely meaningless. The ghost buff pigeonholes terran further into a midgame timing, it does nothing for early or late game. Meanwhile they introduce changes like the tempest and hydra ones that have enormous potential to break the game even further. Its terrible.
To be fair to them, I do think the TW energy increase is good, but I feel for the most part this is a terrible patch. Seriously, do they think those 10 seconds will matter?
The tempest buff is imo a bigger nerf to T mech in TvP than the small buff to ghosts. I mean at best the ghost buff is just a buff to some ghost timing attack. Hydra buff will also enforce Ts need to camp in TvZ mech, while I'd rather they tried to break that trend by nerfing raven and buffing other units.
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Suggestion: what if protoss could use chrono boost on units like spell casters that would boosts the mana regen on the spell casters ?
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EPT
