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On January 22 2014 22:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S. I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all.
So many idiots making easily disprovable, ignorant statements. Innovation was in 2 RO4's for the GSL during WOL (You know during BL infestor). He was also in an OSL final with rain. He was the fastest rising terran from Kespa and he only improved over time as HOTS came out. Yes, he abused hellbats, but he's always been top tier, getting top 4 as recently as dreamhack winter.
He also didn't make any real play mistakes. His game on Heavy Rain was technically perfect in terms of macro and micro and how long he denied Hero's 3rd and he still almost lost.
PvT is a trainwreck and only blatant idiotic fanboys think otherwise. The only reason the win rates haven't gotten even worse (just like they did in Broodlord/Infestor) is because most people dick around on ladder. If protosses did practiced 2-base blink all-ins on heavy rain, polar night, and yeonsu they would be 100% against terrans, just like the Protosses that beat Innovation today.
Time warp and moterhship core in general broke the matchup.
User was temp banned for this post.
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It's also funny how the changes made several patches ago have made their way into the game. The warp prism speed change was a long while back but now toss's are realizing how good storm drops are against terran. Hero did it perfectly in Proleague last week and every protoss has been aping it since. For 300 gas and some minerals you get a shit ton of almost guaranteed damage with a huge upside. Kind of like mine drops but 10x more powerful.
And time warps were in the game for a long time, but kept somewhat in check by the few number of good blink stalker maps. With Blizzard's experimental (and honestly abhorrent) approach to WCS maps this season, the number of broken maps for the strategy increased by a lot. Any map where there is a distant ramp and even some cliff area is easily abused by 14-sight mothership core and time warp, making blink stalkers unstoppable. This is like over half the map pool now.
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Blizzard never lets terrans do anything that isn't MMM, every time a new strategy comes blizzard slaps the silly terrans on the wrist and say ''Silly terran, go back to MMM. Siege tanks? Nerfed. lolbattlecruiser? Nerfed. Thors? Nerfed. BFH? Nerfed. Snipe? Nerfed. Warhounds: Removed. Hellbats : Nerfed into hell twice. Widow mine?: Nerfed.
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On January 22 2014 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 12:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today. The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles. And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements. The ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once require an impressive infra structure and an economy to to be able to handle that. It does not in anyway automatically make up for being cost innefficent. The problem with medivacs and their speed boost is that they are an incredibly good unit that makes an already more cost efficent army vastly more cost efficient vs zerg. That however is also not the core problem, the problem early/mid game is that zerg because they have to power economy so hard have no way of handling the air (pickup-drop micro) because of lack of anti air units without teching to lair.(in my opinion) The ability of zerg to scout and make units in the last second is a defensive power, just like terrans bunker+scv repair, simcity+ranged marines and protoss overcharge and forcefields. The way for zerg to survive cheese and early game aggression is this ability. Because that is not even close to make up for being cost innefficient zerg had to evolve their playstyles to get ahead economically, the only way for zerg to reliably win is to reliably out macro the other races. That is a red thread throughout the metagames of ZvP and ZvT. T and P evolve to try and either kill Z for being greedy or find ways of being greedy themselves so they don't fall behind. Zerg wasn't "meant" to be handicapped and always have to macro harder and be one base ahead to stay in the game is just the way the meta game has evolved because zerg had to find a way to win even though its hard as hell to trade cost efficient against T and P. If its good this way or not I don't know but I think its one reason the matchups are stagnating and tend to go towards late outdrawn games.
Well first of all, Zerg's macro unit is one of its best aa units, so yes you do have aa early in the game. Also, spore crawlers cost 75 minerals and come with a spawning pool, so you can always make those too if you feel the need. Secondly, the ability to quickly spawn armies is definitely not just a defensive power. Anytime you trade with the other races in a cost efficient way, you have nearly already won the game. You have the ability to reproduce that same army way before the other races can ever hope to. So again, it would be completely broken if Zerg could reliably trade cost efficiently with the other races throughout the game because they would just steamroll them with superior production.
And I'm pretty sure that Zerg was already designed to have to be a base ahead. Their army is so fast that defending 3 bases at once is a piece of cake. I mean lings have like 6.1 speed on creep..holy fuck. Do you think the other races just decide not to take other bases because they don't have to? No. They would love to, but they are much harder to defend that for a Zerg. Either way though, the fact that you are a base ahead means that you will already have the "impressive infra structure and an economy," so that's really just a moot point. You don't have to max when you produce an army, you just have to be able to produce one that is capable of trading close to cost efficiently with the other races.
And again, you are overestimating just how good afterburners are.. Without them, drops would almost never land at all because a medivac's base movement speed is so slow compared to mutas (especially 4 speed mutas). Medivacs travel at their boosted speed for only 28% of the time, and thats with perfect timings on reigniting the ability. This means that for 72% of the time it is moving slower than a drone. If you cant see the drops coming between overlord spread, creep vision, and almost certain watchtower control, the problem lies with you man. Here is a link to the current map pool that shows just how insignificant 8 seconds of boosted flight is: http://danielfenner.com/rush-distances-of-the-sc2-hots-2013-season-6-ladder-pool/ (note: time is measured in the speed of a drone which is faster than base medivac speed).
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On January 23 2014 01:15 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 22 2014 12:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today. The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles. And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements. The ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once require an impressive infra structure and an economy to to be able to handle that. It does not in anyway automatically make up for being cost innefficent. The problem with medivacs and their speed boost is that they are an incredibly good unit that makes an already more cost efficent army vastly more cost efficient vs zerg. That however is also not the core problem, the problem early/mid game is that zerg because they have to power economy so hard have no way of handling the air (pickup-drop micro) because of lack of anti air units without teching to lair.(in my opinion) The ability of zerg to scout and make units in the last second is a defensive power, just like terrans bunker+scv repair, simcity+ranged marines and protoss overcharge and forcefields. The way for zerg to survive cheese and early game aggression is this ability. Because that is not even close to make up for being cost innefficient zerg had to evolve their playstyles to get ahead economically, the only way for zerg to reliably win is to reliably out macro the other races. That is a red thread throughout the metagames of ZvP and ZvT. T and P evolve to try and either kill Z for being greedy or find ways of being greedy themselves so they don't fall behind. Zerg wasn't "meant" to be handicapped and always have to macro harder and be one base ahead to stay in the game is just the way the meta game has evolved because zerg had to find a way to win even though its hard as hell to trade cost efficient against T and P. If its good this way or not I don't know but I think its one reason the matchups are stagnating and tend to go towards late outdrawn games. Well first of all, Zerg's macro unit is one of its best aa units, so yes you do have aa early in the game. Also, spore crawlers cost 75 minerals and come with a spawning pool, so you can always make those too if you feel the need. Secondly, the ability to quickly spawn armies is definitely not just a defensive power. Anytime you trade with the other races in a cost efficient way, you have nearly already won the game. You have the ability to reproduce that same army way before the other races can ever hope to. So again, it would be completely broken if Zerg could reliably trade cost efficiently with the other races throughout the game because they would just steamroll them with superior production. And I'm pretty sure that Zerg was already designed to have to be a base ahead. Their army is so fast that defending 3 bases at once is a piece of cake. I mean lings have like 6.1 speed on creep..holy fuck. Do you think the other races just decide not to take other bases because they don't have to? No. They would love to, but they are much harder to defend that for a Zerg. Either way though, the fact that you are a base ahead means that you will already have the "impressive infra structure and an economy," so that's really just a moot point. You don't have to max when you produce an army, you just have to be able to produce one that is capable of trading close to cost efficiently with the other races. And again, you are overestimating just how good afterburners are.. Without them, drops would almost never land at all because a medivac's base movement speed is so slow compared to mutas (especially 4 speed mutas). Medivacs travel at their boosted speed for only 28% of the time, and thats with perfect timings on reigniting the ability. This means that for 72% of the time it is moving slower than a drone. If you cant see the drops coming between overlord spread, creep vision, and almost certain watchtower control, the problem lies with you man. Here is a link to the current map pool that shows just how insignificant 8 seconds of boosted flight is: http://danielfenner.com/rush-distances-of-the-sc2-hots-2013-season-6-ladder-pool/ (note: time is measured in the speed of a drone which is faster than base medivac speed).
You make very valid points about anti air, I still don't agree that 2 queens solves the problem of of killing medivacs before they boost away. All I'm sayi´ng is that its troublesome not badly balanced or anything.
Regarding the way the zerg race operates I believe you are wrong, three bases with injects will yield you maximum 21 larvae. At the time you got three hatches up with queens for example a terran advesary might have rax+reactor, factory+reactor and possibly a starport+reactor. If you figure in the time getting enough drones just to support that production even if only zerglings terran could have that at least. I don't believe the production rate is actually that much different. Seeing as each hatch cost 300 and every queen 150. If terran would build infrastructure for close to that I don't believe the zerg would out produce terran by much. Not to mention toss with chronoboosts, if toss gets 1-2 expansions they can chrono the shit out of their production facilities. Every race has ways to crank out units fast.
I also believe that thinking that zerg was "made" to be one base ahead against all other races is being pretty ignorant to the obvious intention to balance the races. Every races has similar but still different ways to develop their tech and all races have many units that counter eachother out or are meant to fill the same function. If Zerg was made to have one extra base why go through the obvious falsehood of having them starting with the same as everyone else, that is obviously handicapping the race. Look at the first maps that came with wol, the game was meant to be balanced for those maps, how did that turn out.....
Obviously zerg needs one more base to keep up with the other races and they have found a way to get that point making it balanced but that is obviously not by design. Look at the initial maps released with WoL did they seemed to be designed for going 2 hatch before pool? Obviously not because that was not the intention.
I think it would be best if we could get away from this macro or die game that Z v PT is at the moment, I like macro I love zerg I just don't think its the bes thing for the scene.
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On January 22 2014 22:48 Salient wrote:
Korea isn't really the best anymore since every famous player who has the connections to do so goes to more lucrative foreign markets (e.g. Dear, Bomber, MC, MMA, Stardust, Mvp, Taeja, Genius, Jaedong, Nestea). I'm surprised Maru and SoS haven't fled the country too!
Only Dear, Taeja and Jaedong would be able to compete in Korea.
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On January 23 2014 02:02 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:48 Salient wrote:
Korea isn't really the best anymore since every famous player who has the connections to do so goes to more lucrative foreign markets (e.g. Dear, Bomber, MC, MMA, Stardust, Mvp, Taeja, Genius, Jaedong, Nestea). I'm surprised Maru and SoS haven't fled the country too! Only Dear, Taeja and Jaedong would be able to compete in Korea.
Bomber?
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On January 22 2014 23:51 Diogenes wrote:
It's also funny how the changes made several patches ago have made their way into the game. The warp prism speed change was a long while back but now toss's are realizing how good storm drops are against terran. Hero did it perfectly in Proleague last week and every protoss has been aping it since. For 300 gas and some minerals you get a shit ton of almost guaranteed damage with a huge upside. Kind of like mine drops but 10x more powerful.
And time warps were in the game for a long time, but kept somewhat in check by the few number of good blink stalker maps. With Blizzard's experimental (and honestly abhorrent) approach to WCS maps this season, the number of broken maps for the strategy increased by a lot. Any map where there is a distant ramp and even some cliff area is easily abused by 14-sight mothership core and time warp, making blink stalkers unstoppable. This is like over half the map pool now.
Storm drops aren't a problem, there are plenty of opportunities for counterplay there. If it becomes a mainstream strategy then expect pros to become better at stopping them. And anything that makes protoss have to use multitask is good for the game.
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On January 23 2014 01:58 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 01:15 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 22 2014 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 22 2014 12:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today. The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles. And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements. The ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once require an impressive infra structure and an economy to to be able to handle that. It does not in anyway automatically make up for being cost innefficent. The problem with medivacs and their speed boost is that they are an incredibly good unit that makes an already more cost efficent army vastly more cost efficient vs zerg. That however is also not the core problem, the problem early/mid game is that zerg because they have to power economy so hard have no way of handling the air (pickup-drop micro) because of lack of anti air units without teching to lair.(in my opinion) The ability of zerg to scout and make units in the last second is a defensive power, just like terrans bunker+scv repair, simcity+ranged marines and protoss overcharge and forcefields. The way for zerg to survive cheese and early game aggression is this ability. Because that is not even close to make up for being cost innefficient zerg had to evolve their playstyles to get ahead economically, the only way for zerg to reliably win is to reliably out macro the other races. That is a red thread throughout the metagames of ZvP and ZvT. T and P evolve to try and either kill Z for being greedy or find ways of being greedy themselves so they don't fall behind. Zerg wasn't "meant" to be handicapped and always have to macro harder and be one base ahead to stay in the game is just the way the meta game has evolved because zerg had to find a way to win even though its hard as hell to trade cost efficient against T and P. If its good this way or not I don't know but I think its one reason the matchups are stagnating and tend to go towards late outdrawn games. Well first of all, Zerg's macro unit is one of its best aa units, so yes you do have aa early in the game. Also, spore crawlers cost 75 minerals and come with a spawning pool, so you can always make those too if you feel the need. Secondly, the ability to quickly spawn armies is definitely not just a defensive power. Anytime you trade with the other races in a cost efficient way, you have nearly already won the game. You have the ability to reproduce that same army way before the other races can ever hope to. So again, it would be completely broken if Zerg could reliably trade cost efficiently with the other races throughout the game because they would just steamroll them with superior production. And I'm pretty sure that Zerg was already designed to have to be a base ahead. Their army is so fast that defending 3 bases at once is a piece of cake. I mean lings have like 6.1 speed on creep..holy fuck. Do you think the other races just decide not to take other bases because they don't have to? No. They would love to, but they are much harder to defend that for a Zerg. Either way though, the fact that you are a base ahead means that you will already have the "impressive infra structure and an economy," so that's really just a moot point. You don't have to max when you produce an army, you just have to be able to produce one that is capable of trading close to cost efficiently with the other races. And again, you are overestimating just how good afterburners are.. Without them, drops would almost never land at all because a medivac's base movement speed is so slow compared to mutas (especially 4 speed mutas). Medivacs travel at their boosted speed for only 28% of the time, and thats with perfect timings on reigniting the ability. This means that for 72% of the time it is moving slower than a drone. If you cant see the drops coming between overlord spread, creep vision, and almost certain watchtower control, the problem lies with you man. Here is a link to the current map pool that shows just how insignificant 8 seconds of boosted flight is: http://danielfenner.com/rush-distances-of-the-sc2-hots-2013-season-6-ladder-pool/ (note: time is measured in the speed of a drone which is faster than base medivac speed). You make very valid points about anti air, I still don't agree that 2 queens solves the problem of of killing medivacs before they boost away. All I'm sayi´ng is that its troublesome not badly balanced or anything. Regarding the way the zerg race operates I believe you are wrong, three bases with injects will yield you maximum 21 larvae. At the time you got three hatches up with queens for example a terran advesary might have rax+reactor, factory+reactor and possibly a starport+reactor. If you figure in the time getting enough drones just to support that production even if only zerglings terran could have that at least. I don't believe the production rate is actually that much different. Seeing as each hatch cost 300 and every queen 150. If terran would build infrastructure for close to that I don't believe the zerg would out produce terran by much. Not to mention toss with chronoboosts, if toss gets 1-2 expansions they can chrono the shit out of their production facilities. Every race has ways to crank out units fast. I also believe that thinking that zerg was "made" to be one base ahead against all other races is being pretty ignorant to the obvious intention to balance the races. Every races has similar but still different ways to develop their tech and all races have many units that counter eachother out or are meant to fill the same function. If Zerg was made to have one extra base why go through the obvious falsehood of having them starting with the same as everyone else, that is obviously handicapping the race. Look at the first maps that came with wol, the game was meant to be balanced for those maps, how did that turn out..... Obviously zerg needs one more base to keep up with the other races and they have found a way to get that point making it balanced but that is obviously not by design. Look at the initial maps released with WoL did they seemed to be designed for going 2 hatch before pool? Obviously not because that was not the intention. I think it would be best if we could get away from this macro or die game that Z v PT is at the moment, I like macro I love zerg I just don't think its the bes thing for the scene.
the math for the imbalance of zerg production is pretty simple:
A hatchery with queen costs 500 Minerals.
It provides 7 Larva in 45 seconds (it´s actually a little bit more with good injecting, but let´s keep it simple!)
In the worst case (zergling/drones), this leads to a supply output of 7 in 45 seconds.
A baracks with addon costs 200 minerals and 25/50 gas.
With addon in the best case it has a supplyoutput of 3.6 in 45 seconds.
So Hatchery in its worst case scenario has nearly equal the supply output as 2 barracks in their best case scenario.
Now we consider the fact that hatcheries are expansions. Terrans build Orbital Commands as expansions.
Oribital Commands cost 550 Minerals. So they equal out the cost of a hatchery plus queen.
So for every zerg expansion hatchery there is, Terran has to build 2 baracks in addition to their expansion to match the production.
Now of course, zerg has to get tech buildings to be able to produce units and this makes the advantage a little bit less in the early game. But those tech buildings are all equal or less expensive than even one barracks with an add on.
Terran has to spent a LOT of more money into their infrastructure. This was equalizied by the cost efficiancy of their army until the late game or late midgame, where Zerg became equal or more cost efficiant. But with the widow mine nerf, this cost efficiancy just is not there anymore, I guess.
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I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't 2-base or 3-base turtle into a death ball if the supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 because the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base/5-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2014 05:02 willyallthewei wrote:
I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't turtle into a death ball supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 where the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is.
SC2 doesn't run efficiently enough on people's computers as it is. This would make the game basically unplayable, which is why it's pointless to really even discuss. That said, obtaining bases and making lots of workers is far easier for one race in particular than the other two. Increasing the supply cap and forcing people to expand to more locations is going to make that particular race a bit stronger in comparison.
Oh and, if Protoss can survive to max, do you really want to fight 400 supply of protoss deathball?
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On January 23 2014 05:02 willyallthewei wrote:
I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't 2-base or 3-base turtle into a death ball if the supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 because the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base/5-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is.
Bigger deathballs, I think.
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On January 23 2014 05:04 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:02 willyallthewei wrote:
I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't turtle into a death ball supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 where the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is. SC2 doesn't run efficiently enough on people's computers as it is. This would make the game basically unplayable, which is why it's pointless to really even discuss. That said, obtaining bases and making lots of workers is far easier for one race in particular than the other two. Increasing the supply cap and forcing people to expand to more locations is going to make that particular race a bit stronger in comparison. Oh and, if Protoss can survive to max, do you really want to fight 400 supply of protoss deathball?
In broodwar a maxed terran was ultra supply efficient but it was really hard to get there.
There were more bases necessary to get the resources, in SC2 a common complaint is that getting the ultimate composition can be done safely without enough opportunity for harassment and pulling the player apart.
if we got to 4 or 5 bases, think of how far the 4th is from the natural, it would be impossible to hold for slow moving armies, you would not be defending your natural vs. 3rd, but the 4th and 5th as well.
I think this would increase multitasking and spread the areas of conflict out to force unit spreading more often.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2014 05:12 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 05:04 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2014 05:02 willyallthewei wrote:
I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't turtle into a death ball supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 where the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is. SC2 doesn't run efficiently enough on people's computers as it is. This would make the game basically unplayable, which is why it's pointless to really even discuss. That said, obtaining bases and making lots of workers is far easier for one race in particular than the other two. Increasing the supply cap and forcing people to expand to more locations is going to make that particular race a bit stronger in comparison. Oh and, if Protoss can survive to max, do you really want to fight 400 supply of protoss deathball? In broodwar a maxed terran was ultra supply efficient but it was really hard to get there. There were more bases necessary to get the resources, in SC2 a common complaint is that getting the ultimate composition can be done safely without enough opportunity for harassment and pulling the player apart. if we got to 4 or 5 bases, think of how far the 4th is from the natural, it would be impossible to hold for slow moving armies, you would not be defending your natural vs. 3rd, but the 4th and 5th as well. I think this would increase multitasking and spread the areas of conflict out to force unit spreading more often.
You can accomplish that without increasing the maximum supply size, which is infeasible. Just reduce mineral patches/gas geysers at each base.
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On January 23 2014 04:33 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 01:58 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 23 2014 01:15 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 22 2014 19:44 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 22 2014 12:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today. The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles. And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements. The ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once require an impressive infra structure and an economy to to be able to handle that. It does not in anyway automatically make up for being cost innefficent. The problem with medivacs and their speed boost is that they are an incredibly good unit that makes an already more cost efficent army vastly more cost efficient vs zerg. That however is also not the core problem, the problem early/mid game is that zerg because they have to power economy so hard have no way of handling the air (pickup-drop micro) because of lack of anti air units without teching to lair.(in my opinion) The ability of zerg to scout and make units in the last second is a defensive power, just like terrans bunker+scv repair, simcity+ranged marines and protoss overcharge and forcefields. The way for zerg to survive cheese and early game aggression is this ability. Because that is not even close to make up for being cost innefficient zerg had to evolve their playstyles to get ahead economically, the only way for zerg to reliably win is to reliably out macro the other races. That is a red thread throughout the metagames of ZvP and ZvT. T and P evolve to try and either kill Z for being greedy or find ways of being greedy themselves so they don't fall behind. Zerg wasn't "meant" to be handicapped and always have to macro harder and be one base ahead to stay in the game is just the way the meta game has evolved because zerg had to find a way to win even though its hard as hell to trade cost efficient against T and P. If its good this way or not I don't know but I think its one reason the matchups are stagnating and tend to go towards late outdrawn games. Well first of all, Zerg's macro unit is one of its best aa units, so yes you do have aa early in the game. Also, spore crawlers cost 75 minerals and come with a spawning pool, so you can always make those too if you feel the need. Secondly, the ability to quickly spawn armies is definitely not just a defensive power. Anytime you trade with the other races in a cost efficient way, you have nearly already won the game. You have the ability to reproduce that same army way before the other races can ever hope to. So again, it would be completely broken if Zerg could reliably trade cost efficiently with the other races throughout the game because they would just steamroll them with superior production. And I'm pretty sure that Zerg was already designed to have to be a base ahead. Their army is so fast that defending 3 bases at once is a piece of cake. I mean lings have like 6.1 speed on creep..holy fuck. Do you think the other races just decide not to take other bases because they don't have to? No. They would love to, but they are much harder to defend that for a Zerg. Either way though, the fact that you are a base ahead means that you will already have the "impressive infra structure and an economy," so that's really just a moot point. You don't have to max when you produce an army, you just have to be able to produce one that is capable of trading close to cost efficiently with the other races. And again, you are overestimating just how good afterburners are.. Without them, drops would almost never land at all because a medivac's base movement speed is so slow compared to mutas (especially 4 speed mutas). Medivacs travel at their boosted speed for only 28% of the time, and thats with perfect timings on reigniting the ability. This means that for 72% of the time it is moving slower than a drone. If you cant see the drops coming between overlord spread, creep vision, and almost certain watchtower control, the problem lies with you man. Here is a link to the current map pool that shows just how insignificant 8 seconds of boosted flight is: http://danielfenner.com/rush-distances-of-the-sc2-hots-2013-season-6-ladder-pool/ (note: time is measured in the speed of a drone which is faster than base medivac speed). You make very valid points about anti air, I still don't agree that 2 queens solves the problem of of killing medivacs before they boost away. All I'm sayi´ng is that its troublesome not badly balanced or anything. Regarding the way the zerg race operates I believe you are wrong, three bases with injects will yield you maximum 21 larvae. At the time you got three hatches up with queens for example a terran advesary might have rax+reactor, factory+reactor and possibly a starport+reactor. If you figure in the time getting enough drones just to support that production even if only zerglings terran could have that at least. I don't believe the production rate is actually that much different. Seeing as each hatch cost 300 and every queen 150. If terran would build infrastructure for close to that I don't believe the zerg would out produce terran by much. Not to mention toss with chronoboosts, if toss gets 1-2 expansions they can chrono the shit out of their production facilities. Every race has ways to crank out units fast. I also believe that thinking that zerg was "made" to be one base ahead against all other races is being pretty ignorant to the obvious intention to balance the races. Every races has similar but still different ways to develop their tech and all races have many units that counter eachother out or are meant to fill the same function. If Zerg was made to have one extra base why go through the obvious falsehood of having them starting with the same as everyone else, that is obviously handicapping the race. Look at the first maps that came with wol, the game was meant to be balanced for those maps, how did that turn out..... Obviously zerg needs one more base to keep up with the other races and they have found a way to get that point making it balanced but that is obviously not by design. Look at the initial maps released with WoL did they seemed to be designed for going 2 hatch before pool? Obviously not because that was not the intention. I think it would be best if we could get away from this macro or die game that Z v PT is at the moment, I like macro I love zerg I just don't think its the bes thing for the scene. the math for the imbalance of zerg production is pretty simple: A hatchery with queen costs 500 Minerals. It provides 7 Larva in 45 seconds (it´s actually a little bit more with good injecting, but let´s keep it simple!) In the worst case (zergling/drones), this leads to a supply output of 7 in 45 seconds. A baracks with addon costs 200 minerals and 25/50 gas. With addon in the best case it has a supplyoutput of 3.6 in 45 seconds. So Hatchery in its worst case scenario has nearly equal the supply output as 2 barracks in their best case scenario. Now we consider the fact that hatcheries are expansions. Terrans build Orbital Commands as expansions. Oribital Commands cost 550 Minerals. So they equal out the cost of a hatchery plus queen. So for every zerg expansion hatchery there is, Terran has to build 2 baracks in addition to their expansion to match the production. Now of course, zerg has to get tech buildings to be able to produce units and this makes the advantage a little bit less in the early game. But those tech buildings are all equal or less expensive than even one barracks with an add on. Terran has to spent a LOT of more money into their infrastructure. This was equalizied by the cost efficiancy of their army until the late game or late midgame, where Zerg became equal or more cost efficiant. But with the widow mine nerf, this cost efficiancy just is not there anymore, I guess.
First of, if you watch the spendings tab in games, the differences in spendings aren't that different in equal bio ZvTs. (at least from a first glance at some replays; of course that greatly differs from game to game)
To some of your arguments:
A hatchery with queen costs 500 Minerals.
It provides 7 Larva in 45 seconds (it´s actually a little bit more with good injecting, but let´s keep it simple!)
In the worst case (zergling/drones), this leads to a supply output of 7 in 45 seconds.
A baracks with addon costs 200 minerals and 25/50 gas.
With addon in the best case it has a supplyoutput of 3.6 in 45 seconds.
So Hatchery in its worst case scenario has nearly equal the supply output as 2 barracks in their best case scenario.
You forget that Zerg needs to build buildings and especially overlords with their larva output too. Basically until you can provide for 200food, 7 larva can only produce 6.333 drones because you need 0.666 overlords as well.
Same goes for all other units as well, e.g. 8roaches you need 10larva.
Also, counting in supply is nice and easy, but supply only tells a part of the story. The other huge part is also cost (another measure of quality) of the built units, which for example in the case of the marauder means that you only get 3marauders in 45seconds (compared to 3.6marines), but you also get units that are 125% in value of workers/zerglings/marines/roaches... (an extreme example for that on the barracks would be the ghost, which for 160% production time has 300% value output, in comparison to the marine; that's probably a shitty example in terms of ZvT gameplay, but something to keep in mind when Terran uses factorytech/starport tech units of their also more expensive production structures)
Now of course, zerg has to get tech buildings to be able to produce units and this makes the advantage a little bit less in the early game. But those tech buildings are all equal or less expensive than even one barracks with an add on.
This is just not quite true. The Roach Warren is 200/0 and the baneling nest 150/50. All other techbuildings of Zerg are more costly than a barracks+addon (infestation pit, ultralisk cavern, spire, hydralisk den). Additionally Zerg has those extra bumps in their techtree: the Lair and the Hive.
And this is not just an early game thing, or, at least I haven't seen someone build an ultralisk cavern early on.
Oribital Commands cost 550 Minerals. So they equal out the cost of a hatchery plus queen.
Well, they also provide mules. Like, even when you only use mules half of the time, you basically get a worth of ~2workers as well of it and CCs provide 8supply compared to the 2supply of a hatchery. (which is again ~75minerals that Zerg still has to spend)
So for every zerg expansion hatchery there is, Terran has to build 2 baracks in addition to their expansion to match the production.
OCs are a production building as well. They can only produce workers, but 2rax with addons+OC have quite a bigger overall production than 1hatch+queen produces in larva. This is of course only relevant for as long as you produce workers (and Zerg has to make the decision between workers and other units), but it's again a factor that is quite huge in the early-midgame.
I guess my argument comes down to the following 3points:
1) It's very hard to find out who has a production advantage at which phase of the game. E.g. in early-mid 2013 some Topterrans would usually have a 10-20 supply advantage in the midgame of Zerg, until Zergs started to saturate 4bases and optimize their macrobuilds against 3CC builds.
2) Zerg definitely has an advantage if both sides stay maxed for some time and build up a money/larva bank, that Zerg can spend instantly afterwards.
3) For as long as Terran can get the infrastructure up to spend most of their money on units (naturally given assuming good builds), and have a similar amount of income with zergs (empirically given; basically because 3base Terran roughly equals 4base Zerg through mules) Zerg cannot possibly produce more before max. Since Terran already spends all their money and the income is similar. The only thing that could happen would be one race getting ahead in supply until both races reach their max income and then that discrepancy stays until maxed army supply or trades favoring one side occur.
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On January 23 2014 05:02 willyallthewei wrote:
I am curious to what people think about the idea of raising the supply cap.
You would address many of the concerns I see listed:
1.) You can't 2-base or 3-base turtle into a death ball if the supply cap is raised to 300 or 400 because the opposing player can simply overwhelm you from 4-base/5-base economies.
2.) The cost associated with getting up to a capped army would encourage more workers (beyond 70's into 100's) and that would encourage more bases.
3.) more spread out maps and 4 base vs. 4 base or 5 base vs. 5 base games would lead to extremely exposed bases and more BW-like games of chicken around the map.
What are the benefits and draw backs overall of an increased supply cap?
Are the drawbacks easily rectified by map makers, and are the benefits the solution?
I think this is a balancing solution that's not talked about enough, it instantly changes the dynamic of ultra supply efficient compositions of late game zerg or protoss, whatever your concern is.
The problem would be that the whole game had to be redone because it would be impossible to balance right now. It would be a game of critical mass units like colossus or tanks that would have infinitive amount of burstdamage were the counter doesn´t matter as long as the counters arent an aoe unit.
Starbow shows the better solution to make more expending more benefitial by changeing the mining rate or do somthing with tha number of mineral patches/ gas gysers.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
Just some stats from GSL.
There were 14 TvP bo3, T won in 1 ... so P vs T on GSL 13-1
Is we talking about sets PvT is 28-6 ...
The only terran wich passed in code S Bbyong - didn't played any TvP he won TvT and TvZ.
So right now all terran players who faced Protoss in group matches didn't pass to code S.
If Supernova will pass(he is playing right now) then again keep in mind that it is because of his TvZ his TvP he has lost already.
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On January 23 2014 15:55 dargul wrote:
Just some stats from GSL.
There were 14 TvP bo3, T won in 1 ... so P vs T on GSL 13-1
Is we talking about sets PvT is 28-6 ...
The only terran wich passed in code S Bbyong - didn't played any TvP he won TvT and TvZ.
So right now all terran players who faced Protoss in group matches didn't pass to code S.
If Supernova will pass(he is playing right now) then again keep in mind that it is because of his TvZ his TvP he has lost already.
its fine
Didn't you see what DK posted? 50% win rate!
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On January 23 2014 16:19 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 15:55 dargul wrote:
Just some stats from GSL.
There were 14 TvP bo3, T won in 1 ... so P vs T on GSL 13-1
Is we talking about sets PvT is 28-6 ...
The only terran wich passed in code S Bbyong - didn't played any TvP he won TvT and TvZ.
So right now all terran players who faced Protoss in group matches didn't pass to code S.
If Supernova will pass(he is playing right now) then again keep in mind that it is because of his TvZ his TvP he has lost already. its fine Didn't you see what DK posted? 50% win rate!
...did you read when DK posted that?
Jan 10
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On January 22 2014 22:41 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:38 Grumbels wrote:On January 22 2014 22:34 Salient wrote:On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S. I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all. Heart, Alive and Hack, the top terrans? Hack is really under-rated. You'll see. Alive was at Blizzcon. And Heart can beat anyone on a good day with his non-standard (some might call it cheesy, but there's no need to judge) style.
Isn't it funny how most of the top terrans are the terrans that don't have to play KR protosses on these new WCS maps?
MMA lost to Has, Gemini, Macsed recently... Might as well list ForGG, MKP, Ensnare, Virus, Boxer and Nada while you are at it.
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EPT
