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On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:17 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 21 2014 00:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:
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when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes. Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too? Lol good terran players target shoots the mutas and 2 medivacs unload and kill "some" mutas? Two full medivacs of marines with stim could kill 20 mutas and with some survivors... If terran accidently walk over burrowed banes? Well thats a really hilarious comparison actually, because banes dont have have a range of 5, nor do they "recharge" over time nor can they be burrowed without extra research but they do need to be microed to get any decent hits unlike widow mines which you just burrow and autokill loads of zerglings. You also choose to compare marines to mutas? Thats as if I would complain that your wm kills my zerglings but my 2 banes dont one shot your tank (which you btw can even repair). Yes your wm dont kill mutas in one hit, nor does 2 banelings kill tanks in one hit. Both one shots marine and zerglings. The difference is wm has a range of 5, is not "suicided" but recharges over time does not require research to burrow does hit air and does not require micro. Stop whining. A) 16 marines don't slaughter 20 mutalisk with leftovers. B) OMG MY MARAUUDERS DON'T KIL BROODLORDS NERFNERF!!!!!!! (Banes vs tanks example) C) Banes don't show up when threatening, don't have a 1,5s animation, don't deal damage, deal triple the damage mines do (radius + no decreasing damage). D) Burrow = 100/100, Tunneling Claws is 150/150, Factory is 200/150 while Hatches are pretty much free. Complaining about production cost is really stupid as a Zerg. E) Mines require more micro than box + X. For sure, If you don't micro mines they'll kill your army by yourself. Overall, you seem like a pathetic balance complainer who prefers a really imbanlanced game if that means he gets undeserved wins. If you engage 16 marines with mutalisk. Guess what - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE SOME FUCKING UNITS! You're talking about how a 1000/200 drop should NEVER be able to deal damage to Zerg if he amoves mutalisk!? WHAT THE HECK!? I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy. Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast. I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds. How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today.
The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles.
And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements.
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Thank god wolf and khaldor are being honest of what a terrible map Daedulus is. Someone needs to be fired over it. Sadly I think Khaldor and Wolf may get into trouble for pointing out the truth.
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I'm done with this game. Daedulus. Blink all-ins on broken maps. There is no way a terran can hold a blink all-in on a map like polar night or Heavy rain. Not when triple chained time warps make bio useless and the fastest possible stim comes 30-seconds to a minute too late versus blink and those time warps. The only way to hold is to have double bunker coverage in first and only one bunker to cover the ramp on the side. There is no way a terran economy can keep up otherwise.
That is of course only the extremely broken stuff where terrans have no chance. On fair maps, terrans cant do any kind of pressure at all because of chained photon overcharge and time warps. Flash versus Yongwha is proof enough of that (even though flash screwed up his upgrades). This game is broken to the point where only all-innish sniper builds work against protoss (like you see in Proleague).
If it was just the normal stuff it'd be ok, but Blizzard makes it worse with terribad maps like Heavy Rain and Daedulus. WHAT THE FUCK. THESE MAPS ARE WORSE THAN WOL LAUNCH MAPS.
David Kim should be fired pure and simple. This game may be too far gone to save.
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On January 22 2014 12:10 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 16:59 Shuffleblade wrote:
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today. The speed of Zerg units and the ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once more than makes up for the fact that you have to be a base ahead. Combined with overlord scouting and creep vision, you should have plenty of time to react. If Zergs could take their gases and tech as fast as Terran and Toss they would roll over the other races with more same tier units because the other races will never be able to match their production cycles. And its not entirely true that speedvacs are the only reason that Zergs play ling/bling/muta against Terran nowadays either. If you really think that, you are seriously overestimating just how good they are. Sure they can move faster for 8 seconds at a time, but that still comes with a 20 second cooldown where they are slow as shit. But even these slow speed medivacs would have been a problem for WoL Zerg styles, and that is directly related to the infestor "nerf" (i.e. no instacast). Without the ability to reliably catch every medivac with one fungal anymore, it became much harder to play the infestor style, so Zergs switched back to the old l/b/m style. This is completely unconnected to the speed boost. Plus, with the insane regen on mutas now, they became a viable component to use in main army engagements.
The ability to spawn an entire army virtually at once require an impressive infra structure and an economy to to be able to handle that. It does not in anyway automatically make up for being cost innefficent. The problem with medivacs and their speed boost is that they are an incredibly good unit that makes an already more cost efficent army vastly more cost efficient vs zerg. That however is also not the core problem, the problem early/mid game is that zerg because they have to power economy so hard have no way of handling the air (pickup-drop micro) because of lack of anti air units without teching to lair.(in my opinion)
The ability of zerg to scout and make units in the last second is a defensive power, just like terrans bunker+scv repair, simcity+ranged marines and protoss overcharge and forcefields. The way for zerg to survive cheese and early game aggression is this ability. Because that is not even close to make up for being cost innefficient zerg had to evolve their playstyles to get ahead economically, the only way for zerg to reliably win is to reliably out macro the other races. That is a red thread throughout the metagames of ZvP and ZvT. T and P evolve to try and either kill Z for being greedy or find ways of being greedy themselves so they don't fall behind. Zerg wasn't "meant" to be handicapped and always have to macro harder and be one base ahead to stay in the game is just the way the meta game has evolved because zerg had to find a way to win even though its hard as hell to trade cost efficient against T and P.
If its good this way or not I don't know but I think its one reason the matchups are stagnating and tend to go towards late outdrawn games.
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I complained only once about balance (or twice, I cant really remember) on this forum, and that was before I acknowledged that my mistakes were the things that made me lose. Since then I think this game is incredibly balanced, but today I have to use the complaint template that is in the OP:
Problem: Storm feels to me to come faster than it should be.
Solution: Add 60-90 more seconds to the research OR 100 more gas to the upgrade OR 100 energy for storm.
Side effects: could cause storm tech to never be seen again ever.
I played protoss in WOL and now I terran and zerg but I never having much trouble in general, I just watch the protosses in the high level matches and it feels to me that storm just comes out of nowhere after a commitment into a certain tech.
I dont think storm in OP or something like that, it just looks like the tech comes really fast and I personally know (as somebody that was doing storm rushes vs terran to break the bunkers at the nat) that it can be used really effectively to just delete armies, but it should do that, yea, it should delete armies, because there is no much for protoss to use vs massive armies like max bio with worker pull or muta-ling with mass muta re-max, storm is essential to deal with those, but right now, it feels like blink into storm vs terran is way more effective than it should be.
I dont know if nerfing storm damage will do anything, so I suggest doing something with the upgrade itself or just make sure you can have only 2 storms on a templar instead of 3.
If you guys think that what I say here is invalid, please dont be harsh, I am not the kind of people that knows how to complain about balance, I havent done that for over a year.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
I want bunker buff so that it give +2 range and allow 6supply in it.
It will give terran more defense in early game and a bit more aggresive openings.
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4713 Posts
On January 22 2014 20:21 TheFlexN wrote:
I complained only once about balance (or twice, I cant really remember) on this forum, and that was before I acknowledged that my mistakes were the things that made me lose. Since then I think this game is incredibly balanced, but today I have to use the complaint template that is in the OP:
Problem: Storm feels to me to come faster than it should be.
Solution: Add 60-90 more seconds to the research OR 100 more gas to the upgrade OR 100 energy for storm.
Side effects: could cause storm tech to never be seen again ever.
I played protoss in WOL and now I terran and zerg but I never having much trouble in general, I just watch the protosses in the high level matches and it feels to me that storm just comes out of nowhere after a commitment into a certain tech.
I dont think storm in OP or something like that, it just looks like the tech comes really fast and I personally know (as somebody that was doing storm rushes vs terran to break the bunkers at the nat) that it can be used really effectively to just delete armies, but it should do that, yea, it should delete armies, because there is no much for protoss to use vs massive armies like max bio with worker pull or muta-ling with mass muta re-max, storm is essential to deal with those, but right now, it feels like blink into storm vs terran is way more effective than it should be.
I dont know if nerfing storm damage will do anything, so I suggest doing something with the upgrade itself or just make sure you can have only 2 storms on a templar instead of 3.
If you guys think that what I say here is invalid, please dont be harsh, I am not the kind of people that knows how to complain about balance, I havent done that for over a year.
The problem isn't storm itself, its the greed that P is able to get away with because of MSC. The best approach would be to just nerf MSC defensive capabilities, or buff T aggressive options vs P, or both.
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On January 22 2014 21:57 dargul wrote:
I want bunker buff so that it give +2 range and allow 6supply in it.
It will give terran more defense in early game and a bit more aggresive openings.
11/11 vZ is instantly broken with a signifiant bunker up
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On January 22 2014 21:57 dargul wrote:
I want bunker buff so that it give +2 range and allow 6supply in it.
It will give terran more defense in early game and a bit more aggresive openings.
That would probably be too strong against zerg.
I don't think terran needs any changes, protoss just needs some nerfs, mostly to MSC and maybe oracle timing (it comes way to fast right now).
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Honestly the Biggest thing They need to do is revert the Stim timing research. With the Nerf to widow mines and the advent of the MSC there is no reason that Stim can't be researched a little faster to give Terrans a Small edge to stand on in this current meta.....
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Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S.
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On January 22 2014 21:57 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 20:21 TheFlexN wrote:
I complained only once about balance (or twice, I cant really remember) on this forum, and that was before I acknowledged that my mistakes were the things that made me lose. Since then I think this game is incredibly balanced, but today I have to use the complaint template that is in the OP:
Problem: Storm feels to me to come faster than it should be.
Solution: Add 60-90 more seconds to the research OR 100 more gas to the upgrade OR 100 energy for storm.
Side effects: could cause storm tech to never be seen again ever.
I played protoss in WOL and now I terran and zerg but I never having much trouble in general, I just watch the protosses in the high level matches and it feels to me that storm just comes out of nowhere after a commitment into a certain tech.
I dont think storm in OP or something like that, it just looks like the tech comes really fast and I personally know (as somebody that was doing storm rushes vs terran to break the bunkers at the nat) that it can be used really effectively to just delete armies, but it should do that, yea, it should delete armies, because there is no much for protoss to use vs massive armies like max bio with worker pull or muta-ling with mass muta re-max, storm is essential to deal with those, but right now, it feels like blink into storm vs terran is way more effective than it should be.
I dont know if nerfing storm damage will do anything, so I suggest doing something with the upgrade itself or just make sure you can have only 2 storms on a templar instead of 3.
If you guys think that what I say here is invalid, please dont be harsh, I am not the kind of people that knows how to complain about balance, I havent done that for over a year. The problem isn't storm itself, its the greed that P is able to get away with because of MSC. The best approach would be to just nerf MSC defensive capabilities, or buff T aggressive options vs P, or both.
The whole point of the MSC was to make things more stable so Protoss could actually move out or take an earlier expansion without straight up dying. I'm not even sure how you could tweak these to be "less capable" whilst still viable because they seem pretty binary "all or nothing" type issues trying to be fixed. Either Recall lets you be out on the map with an army or it doesn't and you hide in your base turtling up. Either Photon Overcharge is strong enough to hold off certain timings or it doesn't and you die. Either Time Warp reduces reliance on Forcefields or it doesn't and we're back to mass sentries.
As far as buffing Terran aggression...anything done there would also mess about with other matchups. I dread to think what would happen in TvZ for example. But that aside what are you proposing to buff? Marines? Which are probably the single best unit in the game already. Medivacs? The boost of which drives people mad already. Buff the bunker build time again? Don't answer that one.
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On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S.
I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all.
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On January 22 2014 21:57 dargul wrote:
I want bunker buff so that it give +2 range and allow 6supply in it.
It will give terran more defense in early game and a bit more aggresive openings.
that'd be fun if it was that bunker upgrade but it's otherwise completely broken
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On January 22 2014 22:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S. I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all.
Heart, Alive and Hack, the top terrans?
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On January 22 2014 22:38 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:34 Salient wrote:On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S. I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all. Heart, Alive and Hack, the top terrans?
Hack is really under-rated. You'll see. Alive was at Blizzcon. And Heart can beat anyone on a good day with his non-standard (some might call it cheesy, but there's no need to judge) style.
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On January 22 2014 22:34 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2014 22:27 Grumbels wrote:
Don't worry guys, top terrans such as Hack and TheBest haven't played yet. We might see more terrans in Code S. I hope that isn't supposed to be sarcastic. Hack is better than Innovation these days. Innovation has been a wreck since the Hellbat nerf. He was a one-hit wonder. The real top Terrans are still bosses (Taeja, Maru, Bomber, MMA, Heart, Alive, and Hack). And maybe [Empire]Happy too since he seems to have decided to be less predictable now, and that was his only weakness. And, of course, if his wrists improve, Mvp is better than them all.
I dont know about that. A lot of the top terrans you mentioned don't even compete in Korea anymore and we can't deny that Korea has strongest competition.
What is scary for me is the fact that Korea always had an abundance of good terrans and most of them went to other regions recently. Also only Maru and maybe TY (I didn't see him yet in individual league) can compete with zerg and especially protoss players in Korea right now. All others are just a punching bags and means for protoss to qualify to Code S.
Maybe Supernova shows better performance and goes through but I doubt Hack and The Best will advance.
I was sure Innovation would advance over Zest or Stork and predicted he might have problems with herO. But in the end he lost in all games and didn't really make any huge mistakes, he would just fall behind in something (tech, economy, upgrades) and lose. It was really frustrating to watch for me as a terran player.
Either protoss early game needs a nerf or terran late game needs a buff. Hellbats did nothing to help against chargelots (as Blizzard intended) so something else must be done.
If they don't go for an early game protoss nerf, maybe EMP radius buff would be a good start, but I think MSC is the unit that requires most attention in the game right now. EMP buff would really only affect TvP so it could be a good thing to try.
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Sorry but Taeja Maru Bomber the only real set of Terran Bosses the others you have listed always manage to fall short because of weaknesses. Though They aren't far behind those 3 they just still have some major flaws that Those 3 seem to play with extreme finesse, game control, and decisive game changing decisions.
Protoss wouldn't even need the MSC if protoss didn't have so much overlap on units and had more units that had specific roles to play in the protoss army and not in countering specific things of the other races..... Not to mention the freedom that MSC now gives to Tech and protoss never really needed much time to tech to any game changing tech in the first place. I feel the Warp in mechanic while strong with the units you have may put Blizzard in a position where they couldn't buff core units the way they needed because then it would be OP if they used the thought behind starbow and only make certain units warpable then things would look alot better because then you would have higher tech units take more time to make and couldn't be warped all over the place to do massive damage faster
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Korea isn't really the best anymore since every famous player who has the connections to do so goes to more lucrative foreign markets (e.g. Dear, Bomber, MC, MMA, Stardust, Mvp, Taeja, Genius, Jaedong, Nestea). I'm surprised Maru and SoS haven't fled the country too!
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On January 22 2014 22:44 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I feel the Warp in mechanic while strong with the units you have may put Blizzard in a position where they couldn't buff core units the way they needed because then it would be OP if they used the thought behind starbow and only make certain units warpable then things would look alot better because then you would have higher tech units take more time to make and couldn't be warped all over the place to do massive damage faster
There is still LoTV. Maybe Blizzard will take some inspiration from Starbow. 
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