EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 885
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On January 20 2014 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never understood why mines have to hit air, if they would not they could be stronger again and mutas could be nerfed too, or am i missing something? maybe give mech some cheap aa and help deal with muta regen... they are really a freakin bitch to kill these days lol. unless the guy screws up I find it really hard to manage the muta ball. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote: Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too? Lol good terran players target shoots the mutas and 2 medivacs unload and kill "some" mutas? Two full medivacs of marines with stim could kill 20 mutas and with some survivors... If terran accidently walk over burrowed banes? Well thats a really hilarious comparison actually, because banes dont have have a range of 5, nor do they "recharge" over time nor can they be burrowed without extra research but they do need to be microed to get any decent hits unlike widow mines which you just burrow and autokill loads of zerglings. You also choose to compare marines to mutas? Thats as if I would complain that your wm kills my zerglings but my 2 banes dont one shot your tank (which you btw can even repair). Yes your wm dont kill mutas in one hit, nor does 2 banelings kill tanks in one hit. Both one shots marine and zerglings. The difference is wm has a range of 5, is not "suicided" but recharges over time does not require research to burrow does hit air and does not require micro. Stop whining. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:00 Shuffleblade wrote: Lol good terran players target shoots the mutas and 2 medivacs unload and kill "some" mutas? Two full medivacs of marines with stim could kill 20 mutas and with some survivors... If terran accidently walk over burrowed banes? Well thats a really hilarious comparison actually, because banes dont have have a range of 5, nor do they "recharge" over time nor can they be burrowed without extra research but they do need to be microed to get any decent hits unlike widow mines which you just burrow and autokill loads of zerglings. You also choose to compare marines to mutas? Thats as if I would complain that your wm kills my zerglings but my 2 banes dont one shot your tank (which you btw can even repair). Yes your wm dont kill mutas in one hit, nor does 2 banelings kill tanks in one hit. Both one shots marine and zerglings. The difference is wm has a range of 5, is not "suicided" but recharges over time does not require research to burrow does hit air and does not require micro. Stop whining. if you engage marines with pure mutas, you deserve to lose some. yes you actually need to micro your widow mines to get decent hits otherwise they might not hit the biggest clump of units. banes are a ''light'' unit killer. It is expected that they dont wreck tanks since they are armored. same goes for the mine. its a mine ffs, I expect it has the ability to burrow cause its a fucking mine. just a couple of thoughts on your post. you dont sound objective in your comments so please dont ask other forum users to stop whining lol | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 20 2014 23:57 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: maybe give mech some cheap aa and help deal with muta regen... they are really a freakin bitch to kill these days lol. unless the guy screws up I find it really hard to manage the muta ball. Yeah i see, but as i said, i would like if mines got buffed again, can't hit air though. YOu could nerf Muta speed and regen from that point. You said Mech air would not be strong enough, but i think Flash didn't use mines against zerg at all (while going mech, maybe i am wrong here). I think that would be a good change overall. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Yeah i see, but as i said, i would like if mines got buffed again, can't hit air though. YOu could nerf Muta speed and regen from that point. You said Mech air would not be strong enough, but i think Flash didn't use mines against zerg at all (while going mech, maybe i am wrong here). I think that would be a good change overall. I don't think in Flash's recent two games as Mech, that many mutas were even made. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Yeah i see, but as i said, i would like if mines got buffed again, can't hit air though. YOu could nerf Muta speed and regen from that point. You said Mech air would not be strong enough, but i think Flash didn't use mines against zerg at all (while going mech, maybe i am wrong here). I think that would be a good change overall. I think Kevin is right, the idea was that Mech has some cheap GtA. And I absolutly do like that mines can hit air, it's really helpful against banshees, oracles as well as against mutas. And decent against BCs, Tempests and Voidrays. And seriously, you don't need exactly 4.0speed on mutas or 1.0hp/second regeneration to deal with mines. I guess 3.75 and 0.27hp/second would be too punishing if you eat that one hit or even a double hit (mutas can't participate in combats for too long then), yet I believe there would be nothing wrong with using a decent regeneration value in between 1.0 and 0.27 (e.g. 0.66 or 0.75). Just change Tissue Regeneration text to: Mutalisks have an increased health regeneration rate. instead of stating the exact number. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
I just watched some of the TL best games of 2013 that I havent seen yet. On second or third there is Bomber vs Scarlet IEMNY qualifier. Sure its an exciting game, but what I see is that one race (terran) builds one type of unit with a little support of others. When broodwar was released blizzard guys were telling that they don't want early units to be completely replaced by higher tier units and all units have their role in the game. Now it is about the other way round. Terrans first tier unit is basically all they need and want to have and other units don't fulfill any role in the game. Why don't other units fit better into terran play? All the other races "flaws" mainly have its origin in giving them ways to deal with terran's endless waves of marines +upgrades + support. Getting terran a bit off marine only play would gain blizzard balance designers more options. Just imagine if broodwar ZvT was marines only. Sure it could have created exciting games but who had played this as long as people did? There is no strategic depth into it but only mechanics and timings. While mechanics is a good thing to have in games like this it shouldnt be the only decisive factor amongst many. Look at games like chess, its about when to bring which unit into play. Look at bw and you will find the same. Starbow videos actually look like good old bw gameplay and show how to do it better. Slow down economy, reduce hard counters, creating situations where marines aren't the first priority unit that terran wants to build, make all races using a good percentage of their arsenal in order deal with different things in the game and then finally it will be strategically more complex (more fun) and a bit more forgiving on single mistakes (more fun) and all around better in the end. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:28 Big J wrote: I think Kevin is right, the idea was that Mech has some cheap GtA. And I absolutly do like that mines can hit air, it's really helpful against banshees, oracles as well as against mutas. And decent against BCs, Tempests and Voidrays. And seriously, you don't need exactly 4.0speed on mutas or 1.0hp/second regeneration to deal with mines. I guess 3.75 and 0.27hp/second would be too punishing if you eat that one hit or even a double hit (mutas can't participate in combats for too long then), yet I believe there would be nothing wrong with using a decent regeneration value in between 1.0 and 0.27 (e.g. 0.66 or 0.75). Just change Tissue Regeneration text to: Mutalisks have an increased health regeneration rate. instead of stating the exact number. that feeling when you kill the oracle with your first mine  what about this : the regen value might change depending on the health of the muta ---> the lower the hp, the faster the regen and then lower the regen rate as the hp increase? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:31 LSN wrote: I still wonder why almost everyone denies to see that the game is flawed in many of its general gameplay mechanics (compare to starbow or bw) but instead argues about minor changes like mutalisk regeneration. Changing such minor things wont change the view on SC2 that most of us have at all but only move it to the next concern that is coming up then. I just watched some of the TL best games of 2013 that I havent seen yet. On second or third there is Bomber vs Scarlet IEMNY qualifier. Sure its an exciting game, but what I see is that one race (terran) builds one type of unit with a little support of others. When broodwar was released blizzard guys were telling that they don't want early units to be completely replaced by higher tier units and all units have their role in the game. Now it is about the other way round. Terrans first tier unit is basically all they need and want to have and other units don't fulfill any role in the game. Why don't other units fit better into terran play? All the other races "flaws" mainly have its origin in giving them ways to deal with terran's endless waves of marines +upgrades + support. Getting terran a bit off marine only play would gain blizzard balance designers more options. Just imagine if broodwar ZvT was marines only. Sure it could have created exciting games but who had played this as long as people did? There is no strategic depth into it but only mechanics and timings. While mechanics is a good thing to have in games like this it shouldnt be the only decisive factor amongst many. Look at games like chess, its about when to bring which unit into play. Look at bw and you will find the same. Starbow videos actually look like good old bw gameplay and show how to do it better. Slow down economy, reduce hard counters, creating situations where marines aren't the first priority unit that terran wants to build, make all races using a good percentage of their arsenal in order deal with different things in the game and then finally it will be strategically more complex (more fun) and a bit more forgiving on single mistakes (more fun) and all around better in the end. This is the balance discussion thread. That's why people discuss balance here. What you are talking about has absolutly nothing to do with the purpose of this thread, even if design and balance are connected. It has absolutly nothing to do with the purpose of this thread. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:28 Big J wrote: I think Kevin is right, the idea was that Mech has some cheap GtA. And I absolutly do like that mines can hit air, it's really helpful against banshees, oracles as well as against mutas. And decent against BCs, Tempests and Voidrays. And seriously, you don't need exactly 4.0speed on mutas or 1.0hp/second regeneration to deal with mines. I guess 3.75 and 0.27hp/second would be too punishing if you eat that one hit or even a double hit (mutas can't participate in combats for too long then), yet I believe there would be nothing wrong with using a decent regeneration value in between 1.0 and 0.27 (e.g. 0.66 or 0.75). Just change Tissue Regeneration text to: Mutalisks have an increased health regeneration rate. instead of stating the exact number. Yeah i get that^^ but i think exactly that idea "the mine has to be good against pretty much anything" was the reason it got nerfed, if it was only there for being able to deal with ground armies cause of the splash, it would be in a way better spot right now i think. I don't know man, but i would rather see a change to the thor for anti air or some upgrade for the vikings. But i agree Mutas don't need to be that strong as they are now, but i am not sure if that is the only problem, it feels to me that zerg ground armies are almost a-movable at this point. Maybe i am just extremely maru biased, but it feels to me that as long as the zerg has decent multitask (drop defence) terran has a very hard time to win with bio these days. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:34 Big J wrote: This is the balance discussion thread. That's why people discuss balance here. What you are talking about has absolutly nothing to do with the purpose of this thread, even if design and balance are connected. It has absolutly nothing to do with the purpose of this thread. It is quite narrow minded to believe that this has nothing to do with balance. The tldr of my post is that marginal balance changes wont do anything and there need to be major changes of alot of things to get things right. Marginal changes is what they have been doing the last 3 years and we are still at the terran op/up discussion where we were at the WOL release already. This is not only about race vs race balance but also about the balance within a race itself. After three years it is about safe to say that the marine dominates terran a bit too much and other mechanics of races obviously have been balanced/designed around this which obviously is the source of alot of the issues. The thread is exactly about balance discussion and if you fail to see that my post is about balance as well (which is of course directly connected to unit/race design/mechanics) please in future respond only to things that you are able to understand. | ||
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ETisME
12291 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:31 LSN wrote: I still wonder why almost everyone denies to see that the game is flawed in many of its general gameplay mechanics (compare to starbow or bw) but instead argues about minor changes like mutalisk regeneration. Changing such minor things wont change the view on SC2 that most of us have at all but only move it to the next concern that is coming up then. I just watched some of the TL best games of 2013 that I havent seen yet. On second or third there is Bomber vs Scarlet IEMNY qualifier. Sure its an exciting game, but what I see is that one race (terran) builds one type of unit with a little support of others. When broodwar was released blizzard guys were telling that they don't want early units to be completely replaced by higher tier units and all units have their role in the game. Now it is about the other way round. Terrans first tier unit is basically all they need and want to have and other units don't fulfill any role in the game. Why don't other units fit better into terran play? All the other races "flaws" mainly have its origin in giving them ways to deal with terran's endless waves of marines +upgrades + support. Getting terran a bit off marine only play would gain blizzard balance designers more options. Just imagine if broodwar ZvT was marines only. Sure it could have created exciting games but who had played this as long as people did? There is no strategic depth into it but only mechanics and timings. While mechanics is a good thing to have in games like this it shouldnt be the only decisive factor amongst many. Look at games like chess, its about when to bring which unit into play. Look at bw and you will find the same. Starbow videos actually look like good old bw gameplay and show how to do it better. Slow down economy, reduce hard counters, creating situations where marines aren't the first priority unit that terran wants to build, make all races using a good percentage of their arsenal in order deal with different things in the game and then finally it will be strategically more complex (more fun) and a bit more forgiving on single mistakes (more fun) and all around better in the end. i much prefer having mech and bio and bio mech as seperate strategy and style, so I can't agree with you at all. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On January 21 2014 00:50 LSN wrote: It is quite narrow minded to believe that this has nothing to do with balance. The tldr of my post is that marginal balance changes wont do anything and there need to be major changes of alot of things to get things right. Marginal changes is what they have been doing the last 3 years and we are still at the terran op/up discussion where we were at the WOL release already. This is not only about race vs race balance but also about the balance within a race itself. After three years it is about safe to say that the marine dominates terran a bit too much and other mechanics of races obviously have been balanced/designed around this which obviously is the source of alot of the issues. The thread is exactly about balance discussion and if you fail to see that my post is about balance as well (which is of course directly connected to unit/race design/mechanics) please in future respond only to things that you are able to understand. Cause a complete redesign, no matter how much some of us may want it, most likely won't happen and if it does, it won't happen till LotV. Small stuff is really the best that we can talk about. | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:07 ETisME wrote: i much prefer having mech and bio and bio mech as seperate strategy and style, so I can't agree with you at all. This does not even contradict with anything that I have written here. But where is mech only in TvZ and TvP? @Chaggi: sure it wont happen before SC2#3 but it probably can help to rather focus on this in discussions in order to eventually have these major changes then. I assume that blizzard can't do much to make the games balance feel right at the moment and make SC2 a more pleasurable game. Some urgent things should and will be adresses directly tho (MSC, maybe mutalisks and some other). But in the end it won't change much I think before major changes are coming. | ||
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Dingodile
4132 Posts
why don't make like seeker missile? the target unit is red colored and the channeling time is decreased from 1.5 to 1sec (or 0.5). we need to stop the unpredictable hits. another problem is if your opponent changes manually the target. You as non-terran can never see it. Example: Polt vs Byul WCS NA S2 Finale http://i.imgur.com/Ez6X9PX.gif | ||
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ETisME
12291 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:15 LSN wrote: This does not even contradict with anything that I have written here. But where is mech only in TvZ and TvP? @Chaggi: sure it wont happen before SC2#3 but it probably can help to rather focus on this in discussions in order to eventually have these major changes then. I assume that blizzard can't do much to make the games balance feel right at the moment and make SC2 a more pleasurable game. Some urgent things should and will be adresses directly tho (MSC, maybe mutalisks and some other). But in the end it won't change much I think before major changes are coming. what do you mean where is mech only in TvZ and TvP?? You call it flaw but I call it a style. Bio only in BW ZvT would be boring because bio is not nearly as deadly as they are in SC2. ZvT we have pure bio style, we have mech, we have marine hellbat medivac thor widow mine marauder, we have marine tanks occassionally, we get to sky mech what else do you want? | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On January 21 2014 01:17 Dingodile wrote: about widow mines: why don't make like seeker missile? the target unit is red colored and the channeling time is decreased from 1.5 to 1sec (or 0.5). we need to stop the unpredictable hits. another problem is if your opponent changes manually the target. You as non-terran can never see it. Example: Polt vs Byul WCS NA S2 Finale http://i.imgur.com/Ez6X9PX.gif Mixed feelings about the changes. I'm all for making predictable hits - I would propose instead that the widow mines are near instant when detonated manually, but when left to its own devices, it has a slow (increase it from 1.5 to 2 or even 2.5 seconds) target acquisition rate. I don't know if making it like seeker missile is a good thing. It's not like storms or fungals have a reliable way to see where the spells are going to land except by gauging the distance of the HTs and infestors - something that also applies to widow-mines. Again, maybe without manual detonation, the mines can paint a target with laser like seeker missiles. As for the example. Byul was already being beaten and routed by Polt. In a desperate counter attack attempt, he sent his units to the right side of the map, and most importantly, he did not have overseers with him. That's where Polt's second control group of forces caught Byul's last remaining forces. Polt was able to burrow his mines on time, then select fire his mines, while retreating with that smaller bio force. Watching Polt's stream whenever possible, he is not be able to pull it off reliably on many occasions. It's so hard to target fire mines when you have to micro your bio too. We can also see in that gif that Polt's bio micro is just a basic pull back - and not the usual fancy multi-directional splits you see from terrans of his caliber. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
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