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On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end.
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On January 21 2014 02:47 Pirfiktshon wrote:
LOL Have you even heard of SK Terran? Or Flash? Ofcourse there was Bio ONly in BW and it was intense micro action all over the map face melting and put you in awe to watch so no it would not be boring hahahaha
Tanks and vessels were crucial part of those bio strats. As well as firebats, medics and dropships. It wasn't anything like mindless rallying of bio all over the map.
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On January 21 2014 02:47 Pirfiktshon wrote:
LOL Have you even heard of SK Terran? Or Flash? Ofcourse there was Bio ONly in BW and it was intense micro action all over the map face melting and put you in awe to watch so no it would not be boring hahahaha
SK Terran isn't bio only.
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In BW almost all units had their use. Tanks in BW ZvT were especially good vs lurkers and splash dmg below dark swarms. If a zerg for any reason had not build any or not enaugh lurkers or if lurkers had been decimated frequently by bio in fast paced games there could have been situations where the terran didnt need to build (m)any tanks. Usually they did and had to and there is nothing wrong about BW being that versatile and creating situations with derivations from standard play without being cheesy/allin. BW also had mech openings, bio into mech transitions, mech into bio transitions and so on.
The problem of SC2 is that there are no such alternatives and therefore games cannot develop into different directions depending on the decisions of players. The terran just builds marines. If the zerg gets banelings, the counter to marines, then the terran just continues to build marines. This causes the matchups to be stale. If there were better alternatives to marine play and better transitions out of it the game could be strategically more dynamic.
First thing blizzard actually has to do is:
1. weaken mariens
2. weaken counters to marines
3. remove/weaken all the stuff that is only due to terran bio in the game or as strong as it is due to bio.
....
Finally there can be a game where forcefields are not needed anymore and where rock paper scissors mechanics take place as intended. E.g. marines without combat shield would make bio lose vs roach/hydra play. Then terran can take advantage of this with high mobility drops and strong but stationary metal play. Zerg beats this with mutas what terran answers with marines again. This would be the healthy state of the game that we all want. But major changes are necessary to reach this. Lowering muta regeneration today and doing other minor crap tomorrow will never let the game reach this state and ppl will continue to turn their back to SC2 due to the game lacking variety, options and being stale, no matter which race has the slight edge right now and how exciting a 30 minute marine push of terrans vs zergs can be at all.
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Well SC2 Requires other units than just Marines and Meds Thats all i'm saying Your point is that it is Pure Bio unlike bw when sc2 requires something other than bio to be viable .... Whether it be widow mines Thors in TvZ or Hellbats Ghosts and vikings in TvP .......
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On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end.
Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour.
Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them.
Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup.
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After all, everything can and probably in the end must be changed. But the source of the problem is neither muta regeneration nor medivac speed and therefore this attempt wont have any real impact on the general state and balance of the game.
Sources are:
1. bases being too quickly saturated (results: players that are ahead easily overpower their opponent; there is almost no one base play, the meta is all about 3 vs 2 or 4 vs 3 base which is sick with a supply limit of only 200 units; all this results in 20 minutes turtling 1 fight deathball games).
2. terran bio beats anything by far in the game besides its hardcounters. The current meta just moves back and forth within terran bio vs its hardcounters like banelings, colossi, psi = stale. Therefore other terran strategies are lagging behind this overpowered bio and cant be adjusted adequatly without making it as overpowered as bio is. Strong counters to bio which dominate the whole SC2 in general also by nature counter other terran units better the stronger they are if they don't use dodgy mechanics like damage vs a single kind of unit (what they dont). For example Colossi vs helions.
A simple example can show what is possible.
a) weaken bio (marines + probably maurauders as well)
b) weaken roaches as they don't need to be as strong as they are anymore in order to not getting blown away by bio
c) weaken immortals as they dont need to be that strong vs maurauder/roach to be useable anymore
result: terran metal has weaker counters and gets more viable vs roach/immortals
Of course this makes everything else change too and alot of other balance adjustments need to take place. But it is a very simple example of how to start when you want the inner race balance of bio vs metal getting fixed and at the same time creating options for getting rid of other unloved mechanics. It can be done in other ways of course.
Mining speed of harvesters should be increased by about 15-25% for all races and the amount that they gather should be reduced as well so that more than 2 workers per mineral patch make sense.
Or same but different: reduce harvester's movement speed so that up to 3 (2.5 in fact) workers per patch is possible. The latter would also reduce the efficiency of stupid SCV pulls in TvPs, 8pool+drone all in in ZvZ etc. Also it would allow harressing units to kill workers more efficiently when they escape without buffing their speed more and more e.g. oracle. Having a hardcap of 16 miners per base is a quite stupid balance mechanic anyway. It would be much better to have worker 1-16 increase the amount being gathered per time by 1 and worker 17-24 increase it by 0.5 each so that builds get more flexible on lower base counts without being all-in but still have a disadvantage compared to someone with base count+1.
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On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup.
Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one.
Both the speed and the regen are a problem in PvZ, although the speed is less of one than the regen.
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On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one.
Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed.
Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began.
From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up.
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On January 21 2014 00:00 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Problem is:
TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has.
So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes. Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too? Lol good terran players target shoots the mutas and 2 medivacs unload and kill "some" mutas? Two full medivacs of marines with stim could kill 20 mutas and with some survivors... If terran accidently walk over burrowed banes? Well thats a really hilarious comparison actually, because banes dont have have a range of 5, nor do they "recharge" over time nor can they be burrowed without extra research but they do need to be microed to get any decent hits unlike widow mines which you just burrow and autokill loads of zerglings. You also choose to compare marines to mutas? Thats as if I would complain that your wm kills my zerglings but my 2 banes dont one shot your tank (which you btw can even repair). Yes your wm dont kill mutas in one hit, nor does 2 banelings kill tanks in one hit. Both one shots marine and zerglings. The difference is wm has a range of 5, is not "suicided" but recharges over time does not require research to burrow does hit air and does not require micro. Stop whining.
A) 16 marines don't slaughter 20 mutalisk with leftovers.
B) OMG MY MARAUUDERS DON'T KIL BROODLORDS NERFNERF!!!!!!! (Banes vs tanks example)
C) Banes don't show up when threatening, don't have a 1,5s animation, don't deal damage, deal triple the damage mines do (radius + no decreasing damage).
D) Burrow = 100/100, Tunneling Claws is 150/150, Factory is 200/150 while Hatches are pretty much free. Complaining about production cost is really stupid as a Zerg.
E) Mines require more micro than box + X. For sure, If you don't micro mines they'll kill your army by yourself.
Overall, you seem like a pathetic balance complainer who prefers a really imbanlanced game if that means he gets undeserved wins. If you engage 16 marines with mutalisk. Guess what - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE SOME FUCKING UNITS!
You're talking about how a 1000/200 drop should NEVER be able to deal damage to Zerg if he amoves mutalisk!? WHAT THE HECK!?
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On January 21 2014 10:08 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one. Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed. Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began. From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up.
The conversation was actually about regen at that point, and I was clearly talking about regen only in the post you quoted..idk what else to tell you.
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On January 21 2014 12:02 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 10:08 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:
[quote]
Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one. Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed. Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began. From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up. The conversation was actually about regen at that point, and I was clearly talking about regen only in the post you quoted..idk what else to tell you.
It's the speed of medivac that is making zerg goes muta ling baneling because only muta has the speed to catchup with drops and possibly sniping the medivac once the cloud is large enough and also able to engage as the terran push out while dropping, no other composition has this mobility, especially after the medivac boost is implemented.
I personally think unupgraded thor deserves a buff more than muta deserving a nerf
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United States7483 Posts
On January 21 2014 14:34 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 12:02 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:08 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel.
Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one. Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed. Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began. From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up. The conversation was actually about regen at that point, and I was clearly talking about regen only in the post you quoted..idk what else to tell you. It's the speed of medivac that is making zerg goes muta ling baneling because only muta has the speed to catchup with drops and possibly sniping the medivac once the cloud is large enough and also able to engage as the terran push out while dropping, no other composition has this mobility, especially after the medivac boost is implemented. I personally think unupgraded thor deserves a buff more than muta deserving a nerf
Really no: mutas were used for that purpose before their speed buff, and whether you defend drops as zerg has more to do with having groups of lings and banes in the right places and whether you're putting on enough pressure to prevent them from splitting their army for drops. In fact, the stated reason for giving mutas the speed and regen buffs was that, for some reason, blizzard thought terran was defending the old mutalisk harass too easily.
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On January 21 2014 14:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 14:34 ETisME wrote:On January 21 2014 12:02 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:08 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Problem is:
TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has.
So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one. Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed. Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began. From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up. The conversation was actually about regen at that point, and I was clearly talking about regen only in the post you quoted..idk what else to tell you. It's the speed of medivac that is making zerg goes muta ling baneling because only muta has the speed to catchup with drops and possibly sniping the medivac once the cloud is large enough and also able to engage as the terran push out while dropping, no other composition has this mobility, especially after the medivac boost is implemented. I personally think unupgraded thor deserves a buff more than muta deserving a nerf Really no: mutas were used for that purpose before their speed buff, and whether you defend drops as zerg has more to do with having groups of lings and banes in the right places and whether you're putting on enough pressure to prevent them from splitting their army for drops. In fact, the stated reason for giving mutas the speed and regen buffs was that, for some reason, blizzard thought terran was defending the old mutalisk harass too easily.
you are forgetting the medivac boost, this changed everything.
One reason why pre nerf bio mine was so powerful, as mc has put it, terran can use drops to manipulate zerg's army position while getting into a better position for the mines and bio and set up a defendable position which makes zerg harder to engage as time passes.
All this is because of drops are harder to snipe and your muta has to be on the defensive side while not able to be on the drop defend side and the 4th base defense.
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On January 21 2014 14:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 14:34 ETisME wrote:On January 21 2014 12:02 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 10:08 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 07:55 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 21 2014 06:53 Ben... wrote:On January 21 2014 03:06 Survivor61316 wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Problem is:
TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has.
So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk Please tell me you're trolling and not actually that dim.. Is that 8 second speed boost really too much for you? You have overlords, creep, and XNT to spot incoming medivacs, but that's still not enough for you? Lmao please.. Once mutas are out dropping becomes nearly impossible to execute. Between mutas sniping medivacs before they even get anywhere close to a base and lings being so damn fast on creep (like 6.1 I believe), zerg has plenty of options to deny damage. Speedvacs are faster than mutas for 8 game seconds (by only .25) and at all other times have almost half of their speed. If you're taking too much damage from drops its clearly a problem on your end. Mutalisk speed was buffed to deal with how good turbo medivacs were against Zerg during the beta. He simply means that if people want mutalisks nerfed then the medivac boost will also have to be nerfed to compensate or else it would slant the ZvT matchup into Terran's favour. Likewise when they buffed muta speed they had to buff phoenixes to compensate (they added 1 range by default and made it so the range upgrade also had an extra point of range) and would likely have to remove that phoenix buff if they nerfed mutas because otherwise phoenixes would be too good against them. Balance changes frequently bring on other small changes to the other races to compensate for them, and in this situation it would be no different. What he said makes sense if you actually take the time to think about it rather than simply post a knee jerk response. He never said remove the boost. It would be logical to perhaps increase the cooldown on boost a bit or something so that drops don't completely dominate the ZvT matchup. Who said anything about muta speed being nerfed? Its the regen that needs to be lowered. Hence why I said that if he can't stop drops with 4 speed mutas then the problem lies with him. I don't care if mutas have 4 speed from a Terran's perspective, but coupled with less WM damage and their insane regen makes it so that Zergs can basically harass without any threat of actually losing one. Well given that the entire post I was responding to was about medivac boost and catching drops, it would make sense to think you were talking about muta speed. Muta regen is a problem for Protoss too. When they implemented that a lot of eyebrows were raised from all races. ZvZ was a complete mess for a while, and ZvP was Protoss going blind muta defence because they would die otherwise, and that was before all the swarmhost shenanigans on Akilon Wastes began. From a PvZ perspective the whole muta thing is kinda messed up. The conversation was actually about regen at that point, and I was clearly talking about regen only in the post you quoted..idk what else to tell you. It's the speed of medivac that is making zerg goes muta ling baneling because only muta has the speed to catchup with drops and possibly sniping the medivac once the cloud is large enough and also able to engage as the terran push out while dropping, no other composition has this mobility, especially after the medivac boost is implemented. I personally think unupgraded thor deserves a buff more than muta deserving a nerf Really no: mutas were used for that purpose before their speed buff, and whether you defend drops as zerg has more to do with having groups of lings and banes in the right places and whether you're putting on enough pressure to prevent them from splitting their army for drops. In fact, the stated reason for giving mutas the speed and regen buffs was that, for some reason, blizzard thought terran was defending the old mutalisk harass too easily.
Without mutas the problem against bio is that you almost never kill the medics. This leads to a bioball with 8-12 medivacs and 3-3 bio. That usually leads to you getting killed.
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On January 21 2014 10:17 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2014 00:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes. Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too? Lol good terran players target shoots the mutas and 2 medivacs unload and kill "some" mutas? Two full medivacs of marines with stim could kill 20 mutas and with some survivors... If terran accidently walk over burrowed banes? Well thats a really hilarious comparison actually, because banes dont have have a range of 5, nor do they "recharge" over time nor can they be burrowed without extra research but they do need to be microed to get any decent hits unlike widow mines which you just burrow and autokill loads of zerglings. You also choose to compare marines to mutas? Thats as if I would complain that your wm kills my zerglings but my 2 banes dont one shot your tank (which you btw can even repair). Yes your wm dont kill mutas in one hit, nor does 2 banelings kill tanks in one hit. Both one shots marine and zerglings. The difference is wm has a range of 5, is not "suicided" but recharges over time does not require research to burrow does hit air and does not require micro. Stop whining. A) 16 marines don't slaughter 20 mutalisk with leftovers. B) OMG MY MARAUUDERS DON'T KIL BROODLORDS NERFNERF!!!!!!! (Banes vs tanks example) C) Banes don't show up when threatening, don't have a 1,5s animation, don't deal damage, deal triple the damage mines do (radius + no decreasing damage). D) Burrow = 100/100, Tunneling Claws is 150/150, Factory is 200/150 while Hatches are pretty much free. Complaining about production cost is really stupid as a Zerg. E) Mines require more micro than box + X. For sure, If you don't micro mines they'll kill your army by yourself. Overall, you seem like a pathetic balance complainer who prefers a really imbanlanced game if that means he gets undeserved wins. If you engage 16 marines with mutalisk. Guess what - YOU DESERVE TO LOSE SOME FUCKING UNITS! You're talking about how a 1000/200 drop should NEVER be able to deal damage to Zerg if he amoves mutalisk!? WHAT THE HECK!?
I never complained I merely aspired to contradict your weird complaints. Never mind this guy.
Regarding the state of the balance in sc2 right now and mutas vs T. Personally I've found medivac boost to be quite a shock to me when I got into playing ladder again since the end of WoL (which was sometime around October last year). As Zerg it was a pain in the ass to play against and I did feel pretty forced to go mutas pretty fast against T. The main reason it was a problem was because T usually pressured the front, cleared creep and so on and when I attacked and trapped him he picked up and boosted into my base. Or worse boosted to different bases. Maybe this problem is just because I suck but I rarely had this problem in WoL since I could just follow the medivacs withjout them being too fast.
I kind of wonder if this problem with mutas being so important is because it takes so long for Z to actually tech up because they need to power economy soo hard too keep themselves in the game. This delays tech and makes it harder to deal with higher tier units of T and P. Like thinking about the timings of taking double gases, how would it work for Z if they would take their gases as fast as T and P can take them for some builds.
How was it in BW was the zerg units equally cost inneficent requiring the Z to be one base ahead to keep up with other races? I wonder if the cost ineffiency could also be the reason the games are being so dragged out, because a one base game plan simply isn't really an option for zerg today.
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Game would be so much better if the professional balance debaters would learn to use the level editor and provide examples of their brilliant plans.
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Cloaked and burrowed units completely invisible and without the marks and heatwaves around them.
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On January 21 2014 19:29 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Cloaked and burrowed units completely invisible and without the marks and heatwaves around them.
Why? You virtually already can't see burrowed units, and cloaked are good enough. Dts don't need to be any better.
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EPT
