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On January 20 2014 22:47 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On January 20 2014 22:16 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Anyone watch the PL Match Just now Fantasy Vses True...... It was an intense game and very interesting basically wound up being in the end that True could just make so many units constantly that Terrans army even though having the upgrade advantage couldn't keep up with the fight.... and Threw away a HUGE lead just to the fact that zerg could just make mass ling and Banes which had inferior upgrade and just win.....
It's kinda sad to see blizzard nerf WM so hard to the point now where this is possible and Bio is becoming almost Non-Viable anymore to where zerg doesn't have to Upgrade be on 2-2 50 mins in and still win against 3-3 bio Thors and Hellbats....... They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit. It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was. Wm do need a buff though I was wondering when someone would came up with mech lategame in TvZ. And yes, I´m as a longtime terran player are absolutely with you. The army you get there is absolutely unbeatable and the way up to this point is boring as hell. I as a terran player don´t want to be forced into playing up to several hour long turtle fests to secure 5bases and get an ultimate army of very gas heavy units, then having to clear out several max. armies of zerg with it to finally win the game. It´s absolutely ridiculous frustrating to play against, but also to execute it. I hate this playstyle so much, I can´t really describe it in words. If I wanted to sit on my ass for 25 minutes and a move to victory, I'd play Protoss.
I honestly feel that protoss is hands down the weakest race in the game, and the only reason they win late game is because of how well storm matches up vs bio.
Turtling vs zerg as protoss seems like a great way to lose.
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On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel.
Problem is:
TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has.
So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard.
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I was wondering when someone would came up with mech lategame in TvZ. And yes, I´m as a longtime terran player are absolutely with you. The army you get there is absolutely unbeatable and the way up to this point is boring as hell. I as a terran player don´t want to be forced into playing up to several hour long turtle fests to secure 5bases and get an ultimate army of very gas heavy units, then having to clear out several max. armies of zerg with it to finally win the game. It´s absolutely ridiculous frustrating to play against, but also to execute it. I hate this playstyle so much, I can´t really describe it in words.
+1 I completely agree I'm a 10+ Year Terran player and SC2 Mech while being extremely powerful is not fun to play or completely comfortable to play. They need to hit the white board with some game changing ideas with teh following ideas on their mind:
#1 How to make the game more dynamic ( IE Options Just not as many as toss, Holy WoW at dem options ) and fun to play for bio and mech while not being OP or UP or feeling either way LOL
#2 Make the Game around Stable components for each race instead of making Hardcounters for everything......
#3 For god sakes why does protoss need 2-3 of every type of ability and type of defense..... ( Time warp = Crowd control , Force Field = Crowd control , Graviton = Crowd Control , Photon cannons = All around defense , PO = All around defense , Archon = Massive damage with AOE , Colosus = Massive Damage with AOE , Templar = Massive Damage with AOE , Drop Defense ( which overlaps PO and Photon cannons ), Oracle = Detection / Map Vision of units , Observer = Detection / Map vision , Dark Templars = Can make Archons , High Templars = Can Make Archons, Dark Templar = Devastating harass units , Oracle = Devastating harass unit. SOOOOO MUCH OVERLAP its a shame that the balance team doesn't realize that this has lead to so many issues in the match ups..... Not only in PvP but also in PvZ and PvT. They didn't need MSC to fix the race they needed core units and not having so many units and abilities that overlap each other so they have more of a Stable composition that doesn't need all this BS.......
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On January 20 2014 22:50 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:47 Chaggi wrote:On January 20 2014 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On January 20 2014 22:16 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Anyone watch the PL Match Just now Fantasy Vses True...... It was an intense game and very interesting basically wound up being in the end that True could just make so many units constantly that Terrans army even though having the upgrade advantage couldn't keep up with the fight.... and Threw away a HUGE lead just to the fact that zerg could just make mass ling and Banes which had inferior upgrade and just win.....
It's kinda sad to see blizzard nerf WM so hard to the point now where this is possible and Bio is becoming almost Non-Viable anymore to where zerg doesn't have to Upgrade be on 2-2 50 mins in and still win against 3-3 bio Thors and Hellbats....... They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit. It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was. Wm do need a buff though I was wondering when someone would came up with mech lategame in TvZ. And yes, I´m as a longtime terran player are absolutely with you. The army you get there is absolutely unbeatable and the way up to this point is boring as hell. I as a terran player don´t want to be forced into playing up to several hour long turtle fests to secure 5bases and get an ultimate army of very gas heavy units, then having to clear out several max. armies of zerg with it to finally win the game. It´s absolutely ridiculous frustrating to play against, but also to execute it. I hate this playstyle so much, I can´t really describe it in words. If I wanted to sit on my ass for 25 minutes and a move to victory, I'd play Protoss. I honestly feel that protoss is hands down the weakest race in the game, and the only reason they win late game is because of how well storm matches up vs bio. Turtling vs zerg as protoss seems like a great way to lose.
I'm not too sure about this. (the part where Protoss is the weakest race in the game)
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On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard.
TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though.
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On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though.
when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
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4713 Posts
On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel.
And also nerf phoenix range back by 1 again to compensate, or Anion Pulse crystal range by 1. That way you can still make mutas in all MU's but they aren't the alpha and omega of base trade any more.
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On January 20 2014 22:54 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:50 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 Chaggi wrote:On January 20 2014 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On January 20 2014 22:16 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Anyone watch the PL Match Just now Fantasy Vses True...... It was an intense game and very interesting basically wound up being in the end that True could just make so many units constantly that Terrans army even though having the upgrade advantage couldn't keep up with the fight.... and Threw away a HUGE lead just to the fact that zerg could just make mass ling and Banes which had inferior upgrade and just win.....
It's kinda sad to see blizzard nerf WM so hard to the point now where this is possible and Bio is becoming almost Non-Viable anymore to where zerg doesn't have to Upgrade be on 2-2 50 mins in and still win against 3-3 bio Thors and Hellbats....... They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit. It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was. Wm do need a buff though I was wondering when someone would came up with mech lategame in TvZ. And yes, I´m as a longtime terran player are absolutely with you. The army you get there is absolutely unbeatable and the way up to this point is boring as hell. I as a terran player don´t want to be forced into playing up to several hour long turtle fests to secure 5bases and get an ultimate army of very gas heavy units, then having to clear out several max. armies of zerg with it to finally win the game. It´s absolutely ridiculous frustrating to play against, but also to execute it. I hate this playstyle so much, I can´t really describe it in words. If I wanted to sit on my ass for 25 minutes and a move to victory, I'd play Protoss. I honestly feel that protoss is hands down the weakest race in the game, and the only reason they win late game is because of how well storm matches up vs bio. Turtling vs zerg as protoss seems like a great way to lose. I'm not too sure about this. (the part where Protoss is the weakest race in the game)
Maybe weakest is a bad way to put it, I mean I think they're the race with the least potential (and thank god lol). Maybe it's because I've gotten used to slaughtering them as zerg, but it honestly feels like if my mechanics are good enough then I can basically run through a checklist in tvp and so long as I'm not caught off guard I should win.
Unfortunately my mechanics aren't good enough 
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On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now.
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On January 20 2014 22:58 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:54 Chaggi wrote:On January 20 2014 22:50 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 Chaggi wrote:On January 20 2014 22:36 TeeTS wrote:On January 20 2014 22:16 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:02 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Anyone watch the PL Match Just now Fantasy Vses True...... It was an intense game and very interesting basically wound up being in the end that True could just make so many units constantly that Terrans army even though having the upgrade advantage couldn't keep up with the fight.... and Threw away a HUGE lead just to the fact that zerg could just make mass ling and Banes which had inferior upgrade and just win.....
It's kinda sad to see blizzard nerf WM so hard to the point now where this is possible and Bio is becoming almost Non-Viable anymore to where zerg doesn't have to Upgrade be on 2-2 50 mins in and still win against 3-3 bio Thors and Hellbats....... They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit. It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was. Wm do need a buff though I was wondering when someone would came up with mech lategame in TvZ. And yes, I´m as a longtime terran player are absolutely with you. The army you get there is absolutely unbeatable and the way up to this point is boring as hell. I as a terran player don´t want to be forced into playing up to several hour long turtle fests to secure 5bases and get an ultimate army of very gas heavy units, then having to clear out several max. armies of zerg with it to finally win the game. It´s absolutely ridiculous frustrating to play against, but also to execute it. I hate this playstyle so much, I can´t really describe it in words. If I wanted to sit on my ass for 25 minutes and a move to victory, I'd play Protoss. I honestly feel that protoss is hands down the weakest race in the game, and the only reason they win late game is because of how well storm matches up vs bio. Turtling vs zerg as protoss seems like a great way to lose. I'm not too sure about this. (the part where Protoss is the weakest race in the game) Maybe weakest is a bad way to put it, I mean I think they're the race with the least potential (and thank god lol). Maybe it's because I've gotten used to slaughtering them as zerg, but it honestly feels like if my mechanics are good enough then I can basically run through a checklist in tvp and so long as I'm not caught off guard I should win. Unfortunately my mechanics aren't good enough
I'd agree with that for sure. They're by far, IMO, the boring race to play as well. I don't know, I really really just hate Protoss, but I think I hate Blizzard's logic more of how they're trying to balance, fuck everything up, but don't really fess up
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4713 Posts
On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
Why would you nerf the medivac though? Zerg already learned how to deal with them at the end of HoTS, to the point you didn't see them any more, and now its the same situation, at least this way terran could drop some more, which is a much more multi-task intensive play style and a lot more exciting.
Ok at the very least nerf their speed to be just slightly faster then mutas.
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On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk
Why are you being butthurt about the medivac? That .25 speed (mind you, this is 1/16th of Muta speed) isn't going to make a huge difference, nor is the regen. Regen makes harassment free and makes killing mutalisk nigh impossible.
TvZ MMMM v MLB was really balancing out and then Blizzard found it necessary to change one of the core units and nerf in to the ground (Really, people go Thor Hellbat > Mines not because they're still strong!) without any reason from a balance perspective.
And guess what - If you effectively remove the only check to a certain unit you buffed because of that check, well, that unit ends up way to strong for the circumstances in the game.
AND THE WORST PART IS - This change was not done because balance was in danger - but because Blizzard found the matchup -stale- and not fun to watch, whilst it was the most actionpacked matchup in the game.
Balance is fine > remove a forth of the Terrans core units > Balance is not fine > Act surprised
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On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now.
Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations
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On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations
Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that.
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On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that.
That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense.
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4713 Posts
On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that.
They aren't useless, just slightly less efficient as before. It all depends on the magnitude of the regen nerf.
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On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:They both made so many blunders that even though widowmine is slightly too weak the result of the game cannot be pointed to that unit.
It wasn't so long ago that zerg couldn't even get to 3/3 90% of the time. Still can't really. If you wan't to see something stupid in that match up watch late game mech tvz. That is an example of something that is unbeatable, not what last game was.
Wm do need a buff though Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense.
ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes.
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On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:
[quote]
Yea, I agree It's just the only real counter to Lings was WM and now their cost doesn't justify the trade so making them would have been a worse choice then Hellbats which Hellbats are ok but now you can't push into zerg like you used to so they HAVE the option to hive and as the casters pointed out he just opted not to when he had every chance to do it .... I feel like if he did go hive and tech he prolly would have lost but the fact that he spammed lings is the real reason in the end that he won because its just an overwhelming force and they are so fast taht Hellbats need to be massed just to deal with them but then you have muta which Thors don't really counter anymore because they are so fast LOL so its kinda a catch 22 .... I would like to see the outcome though if he upgraded the thors vs the muta.... Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel. Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes.
Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some.
Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines.
You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient.
If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back.
You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed.
Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too?
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On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:47 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
Bio's problem in tvz is the muta, if they nerfed the regen rate on that and lowered the speed ever so slightly it would be pretty even I feel.
Problem is: TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has. So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes. Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too?
You can't dodge widow mine shots all the time, you need mutalisks to pick them off cost efficiently, It would be shit if two random widow mine shots made 25 mutas, 50 supply useless for a large amount of time. The widow mine pre patch was a fucking joke, and mutas without regen would be completely useless if you played zerg at any decent level you'd know that, not saying mass muta isn't retarded but nerfing them would have severe consequences. You should remember that zerg has NO other option than to go muta every single bio game for consistent play so sometimes inevitably you will be forced to fight with them. I won't say anymore on it.
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On January 20 2014 23:42 MattD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 23:26 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:17 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 23:13 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 23:05 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 20 2014 22:59 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:57 MattD wrote:On January 20 2014 22:55 bo1b wrote:On January 20 2014 22:51 SC2Toastie wrote:
[quote]
Problem is:
TVZ MMMM was to strong vs Zerg -> Muta gets buffs -> Overseer gets buffs -> Matchup is perfect -> Mine gets huge nerf for "playability, less stale' -> Zerg beating Terran -> Blizzard does nothing -> Mutalisk are to strong for the set of units Terran has.
So it;s just another example of poor balancing by Blizzard. TvZ 4m vs m/l/b was probably the most mechanically demanding match up in sc2 to date, but it was also hands down the fastest, to the point were a small nerf was probably needed. Dunno why they nerfed terrans answer to mutalisks without nerfing the mutalisk itself though. when they nerf the medvac they can nerf the mutalisk If they nerf the medivac they should un nerf hellbats damage, but also make them pure mech. I feel that unit is straying on uselessness now. Every Terran addition to HotS is near useless except for Emergency Evac - which is really not that good anymore by the other races' options and adaptations Zerg needs to get mutas every game because of medvacs you can't deal with them without muta, mutas are useless without regen in tvz its as simple as that. That's flawed logic. Regen plays no role in drop defense. ofc it plays a role, you can kill off marines and regen your mutas quickly, you also need to use them to deal with widow mines and the splash damage they take without regen would make them useless. If you could go infestor you could use the infested terrans to set off mines, but you cant go infestor. The non regen mutalisk would mean 1 or 2 widow mine shots would make them useless for about 5minutes. Defending a drop usually consists of lings attacking marines and mutalisk not receiving damage and killing the medivac OR killing the medivac mid air. If you let a double drop fully unload AND engage muta only you deserve to lose some. Mutalisk well micro's are immune to widow mines. You can go for some infestors, going mass muta is just more efficient. If you take the widow mines and manage to get all your muta's to take 80 damage, which is really hard, because the splash is horrific, don't you deserve to have them useless for some time? If Terran accidentaly walks over burrowed banes (which btw don't show up on the map) we're not getting our marines back. You are thinking of the Mutalisk as a hardcounter to everything but the marine. The less regen is, the softer of a counter it becomes. Mutalisk don't have to kill all drops and lots of shit without you losing some because you feel regen is needed. Following your reasoning, can you give me an explanation why Terran has 2 important splash units nerfed to shreds and Zerg shouldn't get a slight nerf too? You can't dodge widow mine shots all the time, you need mutalisks to pick them off cost efficiently, It would be shit if two random widow mine shots made 25 mutas, 50 supply useless for a large amount of time. The widow mine pre patch was a fucking joke, and mutas without regen would be completely useless if you played zerg at any decent level you'd know that, not saying mass muta isn't retarded but nerfing them would have severe consequences. You should remember that zerg has NO other option than to go muta every single bio game for consistent play so sometimes inevitably you will be forced to fight with them. I won't say anymore on it.
I honestly do not know how you can have 25 mutalisk be shot to 41 hp with 2 mines. That is nigh impossible.You also don't know at what level I play, so such a response isn't very intelligent.
Oh. And you avoid my questions.
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