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On January 30 2014 01:23 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 01:03 Bagi wrote:
At least on EU high masters 2 base blink seems to have become the standard in PvT, and boy is it frustrating to play against. I actually do manage to scout it in time now (and if even I dont I have to prepare for blink anyway), but whatever I do seem to end up behind in the end. Roughly half of the time I outright die because I didnt predict his moves correctly and got all my marines in a timewarp. The other half I barely survive and the game resets into an even situation or it turns out he didnt go blink at all but is going HTs back and and has a massive upgrade lead. Its the combination of all-in strength and unpredictability with really strong transitions that really frustrates me. I can no longer do any kind of economic or aggressive plays early on because I will just die once the stalkers hit.
For all I care they can leave others aspects of protoss unchanged but for fucks sake do something about this blink bullshit. We. Need. Different. Map-pool. Those magic words works. Now almost every map in the pool is blink friendly, why? Ladder maps are horrible for me personally and I am a Protoss player! Almost every map in the pool has a lot of free airspace. Cool, mutaplay, mutas can regen almost without any risk if you go too deep into different tech than Stargate, woohoo! Cool, drop play everywhere and if there's any risk involved, just turn around ferrarivacs(well, this stops when the templar arives  , but other races don't have feedback). And the last thing - ORACLE! Oracle can go into the base basically undetected and kill tons of stuff and then retreat, because airspace. This is what I liked on the starbow maps I saw(I saw some youtube games, I don't like the mod itself, but I don't hate it and I can agree it has some good ideas, eg. maps ) - lack of free airspace. You're going to drop me? Cool, but pay some risk, you can't drop from almost 360 degrees  I can be wrong, but all the problems about Protoss early game is because of the map design. Take away the free airspace, so you can intercept oracle flying in better(therefore you can protect your mineral line and your buildings at the same time better), stop doing main with "woo, 270 degrees blinkable possibility) and then, I think, we can go and see whether the nerfs are actually needed
no.
The balance should not limit map design as much. It is even questionable why every map needs the exact same choke point in front of the mainbase and quite similar choke points in front of the natural expansions (just to name a few of the dozens of limiting factors). Handing it down again to the map design is absolutely wrong. Rather the game mechanics should change. Your solution of course can work but it wont make the game any better.
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On January 29 2014 23:16 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here.
Not defending at all the idea that Marauders should come with Concussive Shells researched (removing upgrades is such a lazy trend), but you should be aware that proxy Marauder is dead in TvP simply because the MSC is a flying unit, which means your Marauders just die as they move out from the rax because of the constant flow of unchallenged attacks.
On January 30 2014 01:53 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 23:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On January 29 2014 23:16 Ben... wrote:On January 29 2014 22:17 SeXyBaCk wrote: How about making concussive shells as natural ability to marauders. That would give terran some options early game to be on the map.
They had that in Wings of Liberty beta. It made proxy marauder basically so strong against Protoss that it was practically unbeatable in some cases. It would be no different here. Would it tho, MSC maybe shuts it down pretty decently Add in a bunker then the game is done. Remember the MSC itself has pretty poor damage output. Killing one marauder with it takes a long time, killing more than one would take too long before game ending damage would already be done. You have to remember that with concussive shell, marauders can basically kite gateway units and workers indefinitely. Marauder rushes hit pretty quick, before Photon Overcharge would be ready and before there would be anything close to enough stalkers to have a chance (you can't defend marauder rushes with zealots remember. Concussive shell makes them unable to ever attack with even minimal micro). It was removed for the game for sound reasons. Adding it back in now would not accomplish anything but make the PvT matchup even more dumb than it already is. Fixing the matchup should involve making it so both sides can equally defend things and allow longer games. This would just make the matchup even more coinflippy and unstable.
I don't even know how you can misanalyse so much what would happen in such a scenario. A Marauder has 125 hit points and 1 armor. The MSC deals 8 damage every 0.85 second, i. e. ~8,25 dps against Marauders. This means the MSC kills one Marauder every ~15 seconds. Marauders take 30 seconds to build from a rax lab which is complete by 3'10, so the first Marauder is out at 3'40. The MSC is out at 4'. Factoring rally time, this means the first Marauder would have like 10 seconds of free shots against the Zealot or, worst case scenario for the Protoss, undefended Probes (and it takes 6 seconds for a Marauder to kill a Probe). The outcome would be at most a dead Zealot or 2 Probe kills if Protoss doesn't bother to micro, and then the Terran would be as good as dead because the MSC would just kill Marauders as they're built and counter-attack a defenseless Terran base.
If Terran tries to build a Bunker, you pull several Probes and kill the worker during the few seconds in which the MSC is still not there, and voilà, the attack is stopped... (And no, you cannot "kite workers indefinitely," because all untargeted workers are still faster than Marauders and can thus surround them; nor can you "kite" Stalkers by the way, they systematically fire back.)
Marauders should not come with Concussive researched but the reason is certainly not that it would make proxy Marauders unstoppable in TvP...
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they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway.
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On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway.
Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame*. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi.
*this is not true for TvZ only because banelings always destroy themselves on attack. Still the metagame is strictly linear with barely any variances.
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On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi.
before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol 
Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want.
and if you dont want people turtleing, ROFL? you want to nerf bio so protoss can play mass gateway ? then what, you nerf the aoe vs bio? I mean this is simply bizarre.
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On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want.
I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs.
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SC1 had a very long run, and people still play it. So can SC2 just be scaled back to SC1 pace?
Compare the length of an SC1 fight vs a SC2 fight. In SC2, everything just instantly blows up, and it's all over. I believe to get the game back under control, it would need to be "scaled back" first to SC1 pace. Everything probably needs to do less damage. Then, after this scaling back is complete, we start looking at what's too strong. Things are too fast, and do too much damage. A lot of things. So David Kim wants to make other things faster to compensate for things which are too fast. He should go work for Nascar. The only things which should be allowed to 1 shot stuff should have poor mobility. (example: yamato, seeker missile, reaver, siege tank, guardian, etc) .
There should not be a unit which you proxy off of 1 base, that one shots everything. To make the game more controllable, they need to make us rely more on compositions, and less on: Do you have a turret? YES = you survive, NO = you lose.
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On January 30 2014 02:57 FranticRock wrote:
SC1 had a very long run, and people still play it. So can SC2 just be scaled back to SC1 pace?
Compare the length of an SC1 fight vs a SC2 fight. In SC2, everything just instantly blows up, and it's all over. I believe to get the game back under control, it would need to be "scaled back" first to SC1 pace. Everything probably needs to do less damage. Then, after this scaling back is complete, we start looking at what's too strong. Things are too fast, and do too much damage. A lot of things. So David Kim wants to make other things faster to compensate for things which are too fast. He should go work for Nascar. The only things which should be allowed to 1 shot stuff should have poor mobility. (example: yamato, seeker missile, reaver, siege tank, guardian, etc) .
There should not be a unit which you proxy off of 1 base, that one shots everything. To make the game more controllable, they need to make us rely more on compositions, and less on: Do you have a turret? YES = you survive, NO = you lose.
exactly this. They should begin with nerfing the economy (base saturation = 16 is too fast). Directly after this they shoulda nerf bio and then remove colossi and maybe banelings (maybe nerf is enaugh tho). Then go on from this :p
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On January 30 2014 02:57 FranticRock wrote:
SC1 had a very long run, and people still play it. So can SC2 just be scaled back to SC1 pace?
Compare the length of an SC1 fight vs a SC2 fight. In SC2, everything just instantly blows up, and it's all over. I believe to get the game back under control, it would need to be "scaled back" first to SC1 pace. Everything probably needs to do less damage. Then, after this scaling back is complete, we start looking at what's too strong. Things are too fast, and do too much damage. A lot of things. So David Kim wants to make other things faster to compensate for things which are too fast. He should go work for Nascar. The only things which should be allowed to 1 shot stuff should have poor mobility. (example: yamato, seeker missile, reaver, siege tank, guardian, etc) .
There should not be a unit which you proxy off of 1 base, that one shots everything. To make the game more controllable, they need to make us rely more on compositions, and less on: Do you have a turret? YES = you survive, NO = you lose.
Funny part, when it's roaches vs roaches or roaches vs stalkers or stalkers vs stalkers - so battles with very low damage output and very durable singlefire units - people actually complain much more than when banelings roll into marines or tanks evaporate an army.
Or swarm hosts. When it's extremly long drawn out sieges, people complain about "boring playstyles". Not to mention that units stats are quite similar to Broodwar anyways, so it's really not that things have been scaled up.
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I find blink stalker battles to be quite entertaining, lots of micro involved. Roach vs. Roach just feels like two body builders headbutting each other until one of them passes out
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Blink allins, fuck me. Just got my Terran MMR up high enough to start hitting people who can execute competently, urge to kill...rising.
I also thought PvP in late WoL wasn't that bad. Shoot me if you want :p. It's 'fixed' now in that people can now expand more safely, I thought it was cool that it was a real risk to do so.
In an age where 3 hatches before pool is viable, Protoss can expand with barely any units vT etc, it was nice to have a matchup that goes against that particular grain.
Also, some proposed economic/pacing changes would make the game less frustrating IMO. The games balance in SC2 isn't THAT bad, but the meta is pretty damn stagnant and it's HOW you lose games that can be maddening.
I feel it's stagnant because of overpatching, but unlike Plansix I feel patching is needed. It's what they've chosen to patch that melts my brain. WoL Queen patch when Kr Zergs had done 51-49 in the period leading up (if memory serves). Widow mine nerf, after good Zergs had started to really improve engagement techniques vs mines?
Meanwhile we have fast as fuck Mutas with regen, unchanged after these nerfs. At least one of these should be an upgrade, they force silly games. Oracles get increased speed for no reason, MSC/Blink combo is just as potent as ever.
By all means change the game, just stop doing retarded things. Every time Zergs through their own play improvements start to do well again vT they get a buff and the trend continues up and above 50-50 parity
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On January 30 2014 04:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
I also thought PvP in late WoL wasn't that bad. Shoot me if you want :p. It's 'fixed' now in that people can now expand more safely, I thought it was cool that it was a real risk to do so.
It wasn't bad. I found it way more fun than what we have now. It just required a lot more thinking. You had to play smart and scout frequently. People who played risky or in an easily exploitable way were able to be punished, and rightly so in most cases. I am of the opinion that photon overcharge allows people to play too sloppy now and can prevent the better player from winning in situations where they should. In WoL if someone tried to all-in you and botched it really badly you could usually punish it and win. Not so anymore. Now we see people cut corners like crazy and get away with it because if their opponent attacks they can photon overcharge their way out of the situation. Back then if you got past the 1 base portion it was because you earned it, not how it is now where it is practically a given. The matchup was unpredictable, and that made it exciting. Now it is like every other matchup where you open with one of a small set of builds, and in the late game things look pretty much the same every single game.
The photon overcharge issue goes back to the same issues we see it PvT where some all-ins are no longer all-in because even if it fails the Protoss is still safe in many cases because of photon overcharge. If it wasn't for the existence of boosted medivacs I would say the spell shouldn't even be in the game. Heck, it shouldn't be anyway. They should just give Protoss actual solutions to deal with its weaknesses rather than keep bandaid fixing it.
@DWF: Yeah I thought of that after but didn't have a chance to change my post. My bad. But my point remains. Adding more stupid all-ins from either side does not fix the matchup, it just makes it worse.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
Yeah you kinda of articulate what I liked about PvP. Because the expo timings were so in flux, it was the one matchup where you pretty much improvised and strategised throughout the whole game outside of the openers.
I think too many people just want to rip pro builds and execute them game-after-game and Blizzard encourage this far too much with how they've been doing things lately.
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On January 30 2014 02:52 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want. I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs.
I don't see the link between AoE to beat bio and deathball.
Please explain why, according to you, having to use AoE to beat bio leads to deathball play?
I totally agree that bio+medivacs is the strongest army comp if there is no AoE, however banelings-based comp for example are good against bio, and are nowhere near deathball play or turtle style
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My idea for Photon Overcharge:
Reduced to 180 degree attack range
*** When activated from the MSC, PO will only have the attack range on the side of the nexus that the MSC casts from.
>This would allow Protoss to deal with early game PvP pressure. The PO would still provide an area that Protoss has an easy time defending
>In PvZ, The placement of buildings and cannons can easily prevent a full nexus surround, PO can deal with the portion that is exposed, if any.
>PvT.... I think this would give Terran the ability to attack Protoss in the early game. Terran requires so much scouting to avoid taking massive damage to any Protoss attacks that Terran isn't already prepared to defend. Currently Protoss can park the MSC between the main and natural, and shut down literally everything the Terran can throw at him in the first 10 minutes. With this change, Protoss will be damaged or killed if they let a few dropships land right on top of their mineral line and your MSC is hanging out at the natural, WHICH IS FAIR!!! Protoss actually has to scout and have its units (Unit) in position to not take massive damage. The Mothership Core would have to be prepared for the attack, by being on the same side of the Nexus where an attack is imminent. Failing to be prepared with your army (Unit) should hurt a lot, especially since observers are really good. If you have nothing prepared in advance to deal with an Oracle, you pretty much lose.
The biggest argument I can see to be made against this, Is Mutalisk balls. To that I would suggest that there be an upgrade to give the PO 360 degrees again, which can be cheap in cost, 50/50, but takes a little bit of time. This way PO still functions the same in the mid game and on when mutas arrive, as well as a strong enough terran force to kill an overcharged Nexus with no support. but isn't broken in the early game for defending everything with no effort. It can still defend everything, with a little bit of effort (scouting and positioning).
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On January 30 2014 06:49 Wombat_NI wrote:I think too many people just want to rip pro builds and execute them game-after-game and Blizzard encourage this far too much with how they've been doing things lately.
Exactly! This is what has been bothering me. The ability to improvise and play a variety of styles is gone in most matchups now. We've basically been pidgeonholed into a small set of exact builds and deviating from them is not feasible in any way.
Between the state of things balance-wise and the current map pool, doing the same builds game after game is more rewarded than playing intelligently. I deliberately don't play some of the popular styles because, even though I probably lose way more not doing them, they aren't fun. I'd much rather open stargate PvT and play a phoenix into robo style that is actually fun to play rather than being yet another Protoss who blink all-ins every Terran. I have actually been getting a lot of ggs from Terran players because I imagine they appreciate being able to actually play the matchup out rather than facing the nth blink all-in of the season.
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On January 30 2014 06:52 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 02:52 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want. I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs. I don't see the link between AoE to beat bio and deathball. Please explain why, according to you, having to use AoE to beat bio leads to deathball play? I totally agree that bio+medivacs is the strongest army comp if there is no AoE, however banelings-based comp for example are good against bio, and are nowhere near deathball play or turtle style
1. As bio is way stronger than anything that protoss has without aoe, a protoss has to turtle in base until he gets this aoe units out.
simple reason for turtling
2. Protoss aoe gets balanced refering on what they are intended to deal with. In PvT this is bio. Bio is not only a bit stronger than protoss gateway (as it was in broodwar) with maurauders, marine shields and mass medivacs but way stronger. The protoss aoe has to adjust to it. The intended balance of colossi is at around 3 colossi. Having less than that makes them less or uneffective for their intended use, having more than them makes them more effective. Protoss has to wait at least for about 2-3 colossi to do anything.
3.
bio>gateway, colossi>bio, viking>colossi, gateway>viking system, which can be and in fact is kinda random.
as protoss is already in the defensive position it is not a big deal instead to decide to expand, not attack, simply defend and get more colossi, switch to psi and just max out. While 3 colossi are somewhat balanced in an army composition, 5+ with psi is not anymore as bio melts against it without doing enaugh damage anymore.
4. Now if you just nerf protoss aoe it would bleed out on 2 bases or be run over on 3 bases any game. In order to nerf protoss aoe you need to first nerf what it is intended to deal with which is bio in pvt.
Just try to imagine a 100 supply 2-2 bio+medivac mix and anything protoss or zerg can have at this time that doesnt contain aoe damage. There is simply nothing that can face it in the slightest way. Bio loses maybe 10-30% at best and the other armies are just vanished. While it is a good idea to have differences between the races and make one race use aoe to deal with another races basic unit, this is way overdone. It is just a rush to the aoe for the other races in order to not to instant die. If you lose your aoe (bane/colossi/templar) early in a fight you get simply overrun by bio units. If you manage to outmaneuver the bio and keep your aoe alive as long as possible the bio gets devastated, as it is quite hard to impossible to decently micro it. Given this, there is too much chance of an unbalanced fight to take place. A minor positioning mistake or moving out too early/too far then decides about if you lose 100% of your army and the opponent loses almost nothing or the other way round, and this also further promotes turtling and waiting for the opponents minor mistake (minor mistake on progaming level). The variety of unit combination is quite limited due to this too (as well for terran as for the other races).
Now lets look at a more healthy balance. If the said 2-2 100 supply bio army still devastated any other army without aoe with having about 25-50% survivors instead of 70-90% then the aoe of the other races would not need to be as strong as it is right now in order to create a roughly balanced scenario. The fights then would take longer and would not be decided within a second after a mistaken positioning or movement. People had to show more micro in fights and the influence of the skill of a player on the outcome of the fight/game would increase dramatically. Frustration would decrease by far as well.
This is what I am pledging for. The source of the problem is terran bio. After this roaches, colossi, banelings, psi, and so on could be nerfed too. Muta regeneration and mothershipcore are in the end of this chain and will be adjusted to the needs after this. Therefore there is no need to discuss about it. The game can't be fixed without fixing the fundamentals, the source code, the things that everything else is based on.
As long as bio stays as strong as it is the whole game will continue to be a fight of hard counters (as bio is a hardcounter to everything and is hardcountered by everything with aoe and cc) that is decided in quick fights where the players skill has not as much influence as it could and more and more players turn their back to the game and play LoL or whatever else.
Now this is a fine wall of text but it was worth it if at least one of you guys is trying to understand this. You can discuss as long as you want about msc, muta regen and whatever else. This only decides about who has the edge wihin the current mechanics that are bad themselves and cause frustration, player loss and a low (compared to bw) skill cap (even flash can hardly make a difference in a 5 seconds fight but he probably could in a 20-30 seconds fight).
Blizzard if you read this, this is the reason for anything people complain about even when they don't know it and find other punching bags for the frustration they got with the game.
We players should encourage blizzard to do such major changes with the next add on and not go on with the racial fights about minor things that wont change the big picture of SC2. And players are in fact turning their back to a game due to the general feeling they get about it and not cause of muta regen or widow mines being a bit too strong or weak.
Greetings
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On January 30 2014 04:42 Wombat_NI wrote:
Blink allins, fuck me. Just got my Terran MMR up high enough to start hitting people who can execute competently, urge to kill...rising.
I also thought PvP in late WoL wasn't that bad. Shoot me if you want :p. It's 'fixed' now in that people can now expand more safely, I thought it was cool that it was a real risk to do so.
In an age where 3 hatches before pool is viable, Protoss can expand with barely any units vT etc, it was nice to have a matchup that goes against that particular grain.
Also, some proposed economic/pacing changes would make the game less frustrating IMO. The games balance in SC2 isn't THAT bad, but the meta is pretty damn stagnant and it's HOW you lose games that can be maddening.
I feel it's stagnant because of overpatching, but unlike Plansix I feel patching is needed. It's what they've chosen to patch that melts my brain. WoL Queen patch when Kr Zergs had done 51-49 in the period leading up (if memory serves). Widow mine nerf, after good Zergs had started to really improve engagement techniques vs mines?
Meanwhile we have fast as fuck Mutas with regen, unchanged after these nerfs. At least one of these should be an upgrade, they force silly games. Oracles get increased speed for no reason, MSC/Blink combo is just as potent as ever.
By all means change the game, just stop doing retarded things. Every time Zergs through their own play improvements start to do well again vT they get a buff and the trend continues up and above 50-50 parity
You've basically hit the nail on why I quit playing zerg, and am rapidly losing interest in playing terran.
I could be alone in this sentiment but having a massive advantage vs another player is boring as fuck, and zvz is horrible, and pvz is also horrible if your opponent knows how to open stargate. Likewise, having an enormous hurdle to cross mechanically before I can ever trade equally with my protoss opponent (not even factoring other 'asymmetrical design choices') is horrible, as it is vs zerg now and it makes playing terran really frustrating.
Don't get me started on playing protoss
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Also fuck playing mech vs zerg, turtle on three bases then move out with an unstoppable army is a god awful way to play imo. If that gets perfected (and I strongly feel it will), I can't see it not becoming the new broodlord infestor vs zerg, unstoppable outside of a few timings
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On January 30 2014 06:52 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2014 02:52 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:48 ImperialFist wrote:On January 30 2014 02:40 LSN wrote:On January 30 2014 02:30 ImperialFist wrote:
they should buff the marauder, make it cheaper, let it come with conc shell, make it hardcounter stalkers even more, the marauder is a shit unit anyway. Nonsense just as before you edited your post. Bio in general is too strong already what enforced the game designers to give the other races too strong aoe. This in total - to put it in a nutshell - led to deathball 20 minute turtle 1 fight gg metagame. Other than that this would even more limit the strategies of all races. 1. Terran going even more bio only, 2. zerg's roach/hydra becoming even less viable vs bio and going pure muta/ling anyway anycase and 3. protoss just turtling even more into colossi/psi. before I edited my post it was about proxy marauder TvP, someone said it would be OP with conc shell which is a bad joke at best. TheDwf shut that guy down so I did not feel that I need to partake in that debate. Sad to hear you think TheDwf's post is nonsense lol Bio is too strong? really? clearly not true, not even close. what kind of metagame world do you live in? All kind of turtle play is good vs bio, you sit and defend on 3 base and then roll the bio player, with either a mech TvT deatball, protoss deathball and post mine-nerf Bio is weaker vs zerg too which you can see by watching tournaments and Terrans switching playing way more mech than previously. But yeah keep on pretending if you want. I am sorry but you are lacking a deeper understanding of the game. The turtle vs bio stuff is exactly what I am talking about and what bio is the reason for. No regular army can compete bio without heavy aoe. This heavy aoe is the terrible damage that ppl complained about already in 2010 and led to strictly linear 1 fight gg turtle games. Your suggestion of buffing bio does even further promote this style of play. Instead SC2 needs a bunch of nerfs. I don't see the link between AoE to beat bio and deathball. Please explain why, according to you, having to use AoE to beat bio leads to deathball play? I totally agree that bio+medivacs is the strongest army comp if there is no AoE, however banelings-based comp for example are good against bio, and are nowhere near deathball play or turtle style
I would love to see exploding zealots that do AOE damage, that would be amazing.
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EPT
