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On February 08 2014 21:48 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. Mutalisk currently ARE used as the end-all composition. Mutalisk are the step you take to finish off your opponent. You interpret my statement wrong: Mutalisk cannot kill every composition, but they can abuse the immobility anti-Mutalisk compositions require to such a degree the Mutalisk kill everything the other play has and overpower with sheer numbers (As A sidenote, I think Mutalisk trade reasonably vs Templar Voidray) PvZ, Mutalisk are the remax option because Protoss has a hard time responding quickly, the only option Protoss has against Mutalisk is the Phoenix, all other units are way too slow and you'll lose the basetrade. Recall denies the Mutalisk from killing one base, but they've got enough time to get out and kill something else. Biomine v Mutalisk the same thing happens, When the mutaflock gets large enough to ignore Turrets, Terran cannot fight against the Mutalisk anymore and Zerg flat out kills terran. Before the mine nerf, Zerg hardly ever got that Mutalisk deathball rolling, but nowadays, it occurs quite often (and is, IMO, the reason we see players try Mech). Vs Mech, Mutalisk do the same thing. Yes, usually you won't kill the main army instantly, but what use is a main army when you have no production / economy anymore? On maps like Yeonsu it is decently possible to zone the mutalisk, but on most other maps Mutalisk are soo fast against the Mech army and so powerful against Turrets the Terran just slowly dies (see for example: Innovation vs Soulkey G2/G3 from IEM Asia Qualifiers. I haven't seen the game, but from the LR I made out the same thing happened in Leenock vs Supernove yesterday.) As a sidenote, players like Life, DRG and Leenock occasionally made Mutalisk work vs Terran, but Infestor Ling was just so much stronger and easier. Any data to late Wol TvZ is quite useless in my opinion, because multiple Zergs stated they didn't even practice vs T anymore. Just for clarety's sake, let me rephrase:
Mutalisk are currently so powerful in a switch they can very reliably give Zerg a massive advantage in the game when Mutalisk reach their critical numbers (around 25/30) which requires blind preparation from the Opponent to deny succesfully (going Thor/Mine/Viking/Raven/Turret after a fight, 5 SG Phoenix) and usually still manage to trade efficiently.
I would propose an upgrade for Regen, but that'd screw with biomine/MLB balance.
Winrates aren't telling us there is a problem. Gamequality is quite high in the games in which mass mutalisks occur, I'd say it's usually higher in the games with mutalisks than in those without them.
So I neither see a balance or quality problem that would require a change.
Now your point is that mutalisk harass can get out of hand, do too much damage and stockpile too big of an advantage for the opponent to deal with. Completely agree with this, that's the point of building a harassbased unit to begin with. If mutalisks couldn't do that, I'd be interested to hear for what else they should be used for?
To some of your other points, if Zerg could quickly remax on Broodlords against Protoss, they'd do that instead of mutalisks. Point is not that the mutalisk is too strong, but that you'd just take whatever AtG unit you can get in that scenario, due to Protoss having to rely so heavily on getting their robo unit count up again after any huge trade. Mutalisk just being the one that zerg can make on the fly, had they banshees or VRs instead, they'd build those.
To WoL TvZ mutalisk usage, I didn't say a word about that. Only about PvZ. TvZ the mutalisk was perfectly fine before the various Terran buffs and the implied BO/metagame changes (mines is of course one hot topic, not only as a direct counter but they also imply that Terran can now build more marines since you spend less money on mines than you had to spend on tanks previously; other ones being Vikings for Mech or Speedmedivacs which you cannot deal with if you don't go mutas, so mutas have to be a strong option against Terran regardless).
On February 08 2014 21:53 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. What's that logic...?
It's "hey I saw a highlevel game and guy XY lost to unit Z. This is my evidence for this unit being too strong against the playstyle that XY did".
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On February 08 2014 22:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:48 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. Mutalisk currently ARE used as the end-all composition. Mutalisk are the step you take to finish off your opponent. You interpret my statement wrong: Mutalisk cannot kill every composition, but they can abuse the immobility anti-Mutalisk compositions require to such a degree the Mutalisk kill everything the other play has and overpower with sheer numbers (As A sidenote, I think Mutalisk trade reasonably vs Templar Voidray) PvZ, Mutalisk are the remax option because Protoss has a hard time responding quickly, the only option Protoss has against Mutalisk is the Phoenix, all other units are way too slow and you'll lose the basetrade. Recall denies the Mutalisk from killing one base, but they've got enough time to get out and kill something else. Biomine v Mutalisk the same thing happens, When the mutaflock gets large enough to ignore Turrets, Terran cannot fight against the Mutalisk anymore and Zerg flat out kills terran. Before the mine nerf, Zerg hardly ever got that Mutalisk deathball rolling, but nowadays, it occurs quite often (and is, IMO, the reason we see players try Mech). Vs Mech, Mutalisk do the same thing. Yes, usually you won't kill the main army instantly, but what use is a main army when you have no production / economy anymore? On maps like Yeonsu it is decently possible to zone the mutalisk, but on most other maps Mutalisk are soo fast against the Mech army and so powerful against Turrets the Terran just slowly dies (see for example: Innovation vs Soulkey G2/G3 from IEM Asia Qualifiers. I haven't seen the game, but from the LR I made out the same thing happened in Leenock vs Supernove yesterday.) As a sidenote, players like Life, DRG and Leenock occasionally made Mutalisk work vs Terran, but Infestor Ling was just so much stronger and easier. Any data to late Wol TvZ is quite useless in my opinion, because multiple Zergs stated they didn't even practice vs T anymore. Just for clarety's sake, let me rephrase:
Mutalisk are currently so powerful in a switch they can very reliably give Zerg a massive advantage in the game when Mutalisk reach their critical numbers (around 25/30) which requires blind preparation from the Opponent to deny succesfully (going Thor/Mine/Viking/Raven/Turret after a fight, 5 SG Phoenix) and usually still manage to trade efficiently.
I would propose an upgrade for Regen, but that'd screw with biomine/MLB balance. Winrates aren't telling us there is a problem. Gamequality is quite high in the games in which mass mutalisks occur, I'd say it's usually higher in the games with mutalisks than in those without them. So I neither see a balance or quality problem that would require a change. Now your point is that mutalisk harass can get out of hand, do too much damage and stockpile too big of an advantage for the opponent to deal with. Completely agree with this, that's the point of building a harassbased unit to begin with. If mutalisks couldn't do that, I'd be interested to hear for what else they should be used for? To some of your other points, if Zerg could quickly remax on Broodlords against Protoss, they'd do that instead of mutalisks. Point is not that the mutalisk is too strong, but that you'd just take whatever AtG unit you can get in that scenario, due to Protoss having to rely so heavily on getting their robo unit count up again after any huge trade. Mutalisk just being the one that zerg can make on the fly, had they banshees or VRs instead, they'd build those. To WoL TvZ mutalisk usage, I didn't say a word about that. Only about PvZ. TvZ the mutalisk was perfectly fine before the various Terran buffs and the implied BO/metagame changes (mines is of course one hot topic, not only as a direct counter but they also imply that Terran can now build more marines since you spend less money on mines than you had to spend on tanks previously; other ones being Vikings for Mech or Speedmedivacs which you cannot deal with if you don't go mutas, so mutas have to be a strong option against Terran regardless).
The problem is that the mutalisk isn't a unit that harrasses and if that gets out of hand you lose.
The mutalisk is very strong in combat, hypermobile and very strong in harrassement.
Mutalisk have NO weakness any of the other races can exploit without opening an even bigger weakness themselves.
Zerg wouldn't instantly remax on Broodlords, because that'd cost them all their bases. Now do they ever remax on Swarm Hosts. It's usually Lings, Roaches, Mutalisk - Fast units that produce quickly, can hold your bases and put massive pressure on the enemy and allow you to get tech out to defend the next push while the opponent scrambles an army and base defense to threaten you.
In P/TvZ you NEVER reach the phase in which you can threaten a Zerg wth 30 mutalisk. The exception is mass phoenix, which has quite a low offensive potential.
Mutalisk are too powerful for the amount of versatility they have, especially now that maps are huge, terrain gets harder to navigate for Ground units, Zerg spreads creep like a madman and never gets caught out of position anymore.
Watch Innovation v Soulkey not for how impatient Innovation plays, but for how intelligent Soulkey forces Innovation to go all in in a fight he knows he can't win.
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On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ.
yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails)
He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I?
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On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:53 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. What's that logic...? It's "hey I saw a highlevel game and guy XY lost to unit Z. This is my evidence for this unit being too strong against the playstyle that XY did".
I didn't bring that example up, but if you respond to a pretty decent example by saying 'the best zerg player in the world can win in a very close game while using mutalisk' you're being ignorant. Innovation was helpless. Innovation is one of the best terrans in the World, Soulkey didn't win in a close fashion, as soon as Mutalisk were out Innovation COULDN'T DO A SINGLE THING.
What would you suggest Innovation had done in that situation?
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On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I?
I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding.
You're probably refering to this:
On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them.
You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that.
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On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that.
No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them.
This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers.
But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently.
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On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently.
If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true?
No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that.
We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it.
Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter.
Also - what statistics?
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On February 08 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently. If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true? No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that. We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it. Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter. Also - what statistics?
I took your words literally because you did not add anything more.
Now that you added more, we can very well discuss about what you actually mean. Which is, what I take from it, that in actual gameplay mutalisks too often reach a state in which they counter what the opponent has/had to build. Right? (if that is not what you are saying, please elaborate it)
I disagree with that.
Proleague
TvZ: 10-5
PvZ: 18-23
Code A
TvZ: 13-17 (including the 1-6 stats of Daedalus)
PvZ: 17-24 (including 3-8 stats of Deadalus)
aligulac:
TvZ: 49.41%
PvZ: 50.13%
The people involved in those guys seem to have reliable ways to not die to Zerg, so they can either reliable deal with mutalisks, or the zergs are playing it wrong. I'm usually inclined to not critizise a large amount of players for not getting how to fundamentally raise their winrates, so I'm going with "P/T do have ways to reliably deal with mutalisks when they occur". And in this context, reliably means that they don't stomp them (indicated by great winrates) or get stomped by them (indicated by low winrates), but sometimes they stop them and sometimes they don't.
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On February 08 2014 22:49 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently. If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true? No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that. We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it. Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter. Also - what statistics? I took your words literally because you did not add anything more. Now that you added more, we can very well discuss about what you actually mean. Which is, what I take from it, that in actual gameplay mutalisks too often reach a state in which they counter what the opponent has/had to build. Right? (if that is not what you are saying, please elaborate it) I disagree with that. Proleague TvZ: 10-5 PvZ: 18-23 Code A TvZ: 13-17 (including the 1-6 stats of Daedalus) PvZ: 17-24 (including 3-8 stats of Deadalus) aligulac: TvZ: 49.41% PvZ: 50.13% The people involved in those guys seem to have reliable ways to not die to Zerg, so they can either reliable deal with mutalisks, or the zergs are playing it wrong. I'm usually inclined to not critizise a large amount of players for not getting how to fundamentally raise their winrates, so I'm going with "P/T do have ways to reliably deal with mutalisks when they occur". And in this context, reliably means that they don't stomp them (indicated by great winrates) or get stomped by them (indicated by low winrates), but sometimes they stop them and sometimes they don't.
Just to avoid, any confusion, I'll expand on the line you wrote:
In actual gameplay High counts of mutalisks recently seem like they too often reach a state in which they too strongly counter what the opponent has/had to build and lock down any good responses he can bring into the game
I won't take winrate stats in a discussion of whether Mutaclouds are too strong or not, given that A) metagame in TvZ seems not to have settled, and B) PvZ recently is more about Hosts than Mutas given how Protoss (because of the threat of mutas) opens.
IMO, Mutalisk -MIGHT BE- too strong, especially against Terran on larger maps or with bad ground mobility (Frost, Heavy Rain) but also against Protoss if they do not blindly prepare (5 SG + instant 10 Phoenix + Range after an engagement "in case of").
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On February 08 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:49 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently. If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true? No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that. We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it. Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter. Also - what statistics? I took your words literally because you did not add anything more. Now that you added more, we can very well discuss about what you actually mean. Which is, what I take from it, that in actual gameplay mutalisks too often reach a state in which they counter what the opponent has/had to build. Right? (if that is not what you are saying, please elaborate it) I disagree with that. Proleague TvZ: 10-5 PvZ: 18-23 Code A TvZ: 13-17 (including the 1-6 stats of Daedalus) PvZ: 17-24 (including 3-8 stats of Deadalus) aligulac: TvZ: 49.41% PvZ: 50.13% The people involved in those guys seem to have reliable ways to not die to Zerg, so they can either reliable deal with mutalisks, or the zergs are playing it wrong. I'm usually inclined to not critizise a large amount of players for not getting how to fundamentally raise their winrates, so I'm going with "P/T do have ways to reliably deal with mutalisks when they occur". And in this context, reliably means that they don't stomp them (indicated by great winrates) or get stomped by them (indicated by low winrates), but sometimes they stop them and sometimes they don't. Just to avoid, any confusion, I'll expand on the line you wrote: In actual gameplay High counts of mutalisks recently seem like they too often reach a state in which they too strongly counter what the opponent has/had to build and lock down any good responses he can bring into the gameI won't take winrate stats in a discussion of whether Mutaclouds are too strong or not, given that A) metagame in TvZ seems not to have settled, and B) PvZ recently is more about Hosts than Mutas given how Protoss (because of the threat of mutas) opens. IMO, Mutalisk -MIGHT BE- too strong, especially against Terran on larger maps or with bad ground mobility (Frost, Heavy Rain) but also against Protoss if they do not blindly prepare (5 SG + instant 10 Phoenix + Range after an engagement "in case of").
Fair enough, but I got to say that I don't see that as a problem. It's one of the units that can end the game if you get the high count in certain situations - situations that I'd usually call advantageous for the zerg. On top of that, they are sometimes one of the reasons for those advantageous positions, which kind of sounds unfair, but imo that's also exactly what Terran bio relies upon as well(getting an advantage through mobility and then overrunning the opponent with superior numbers). And that can very well happen for other units too (VRs sniping bases, forcing certain reactions and then rolling through the Zerg with a little support in the high numbers; Protoss only warping in more stalkers after a favorable trade - for which they already used a lot of stalkers - against Zerg; similarily with Zealots against Terran...), though maybe not as often.
I very well believe that mutas are one of the best units in the game - but based upon that argument alone there would have to be a lot of other rebalancings as well.
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On February 08 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:49 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently. If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true? No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that. We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it. Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter. Also - what statistics? I took your words literally because you did not add anything more. Now that you added more, we can very well discuss about what you actually mean. Which is, what I take from it, that in actual gameplay mutalisks too often reach a state in which they counter what the opponent has/had to build. Right? (if that is not what you are saying, please elaborate it) I disagree with that. Proleague TvZ: 10-5 PvZ: 18-23 Code A TvZ: 13-17 (including the 1-6 stats of Daedalus) PvZ: 17-24 (including 3-8 stats of Deadalus) aligulac: TvZ: 49.41% PvZ: 50.13% The people involved in those guys seem to have reliable ways to not die to Zerg, so they can either reliable deal with mutalisks, or the zergs are playing it wrong. I'm usually inclined to not critizise a large amount of players for not getting how to fundamentally raise their winrates, so I'm going with "P/T do have ways to reliably deal with mutalisks when they occur". And in this context, reliably means that they don't stomp them (indicated by great winrates) or get stomped by them (indicated by low winrates), but sometimes they stop them and sometimes they don't. Just to avoid, any confusion, I'll expand on the line you wrote: In actual gameplay High counts of mutalisks recently seem like they too often reach a state in which they too strongly counter what the opponent has/had to build and lock down any good responses he can bring into the gameI won't take winrate stats in a discussion of whether Mutaclouds are too strong or not, given that A) metagame in TvZ seems not to have settled, and B) PvZ recently is more about Hosts than Mutas given how Protoss (because of the threat of mutas) opens. IMO, Mutalisk -MIGHT BE- too strong, especially against Terran on larger maps or with bad ground mobility (Frost, Heavy Rain) but also against Protoss if they do not blindly prepare (5 SG + instant 10 Phoenix + Range after an engagement "in case of"). Fair enough, but I got to say that I don't see that as a problem. It's one of the units that can end the game if you get the high count in certain situations - situations that I'd usually call advantageous for the zerg. On top of that, they are sometimes one of the reasons for those advantageous positions, which kind of sounds unfair, but imo that's also exactly what Terran bio relies upon as well(getting an advantage through mobility and then overrunning the opponent with superior numbers). And that can very well happen for other units too (VRs sniping bases, forcing certain reactions and then rolling through the Zerg with a little support in the high numbers; Protoss only warping in more stalkers after a favorable trade - for which they already used a lot of stalkers - against Zerg; similarily with Zealots against Terran...), though maybe not as often. I very well believe that mutas are one of the best units in the game - but based upon that argument alone there would have to be a lot of other rebalancings as well.
So I think we are agreeing, somehow.
Lets put it this way: IMO Mutalisk currently fulfill a role another Zerg unit should fulfill. Mutalisk can outright finish an opponent off with good play, and are sadly one of the only units that can do so. Zergling Baneling, Roach Hydra, Biomine, are all compositions that overpower; you smash them into your opponent and eventually overrun him with superior production. Mutalisk currently snowball as well, becoming an enormous threat in the lategame, in both harrassment and straight up engagements.
Swarm hosts were supposed to do this now, but Sadly, they turned out poorly and all of a sudden DK thinks it's all fine and dandy.
EDIT - I will not deny Mutalisk (like the Marine) is one of the best designed unit in this game, being strong, highly microable, but weak when used in the wrong way.
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On February 08 2014 23:19 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 23:15 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:58 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:49 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:34 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:25 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 22:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 08 2014 22:12 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak.
TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong.
Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong.
Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch.
ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup.
Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. yeah, I agree that this is the strength of mutalisks. Toastie didn't put it that way. He literally spoke about mutalisks being too strong of an engagment unit. He did not say you need to pile up a huge advantage with them so that you can finally take down a severely weakened opponent. (Nor did he mention that 50% of the time this "advantage build up" fails) He already backed away from that statement, but I can only argue with what people originally write, can't I? I don't recall saying that. I also expanded on my statement in the 2nd post I wrote just to clear this misunderstanding. You're probably refering to this: On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. You misinterpreted my statement, don't blame me for that. No, I don't missinterprete your statement, you did not write what you added later on. There are compositions that are bulletproof against mutalisks. If the opponent does reach them, Zerg cannot end those compositions with mutalisks. One of the major parts of mutalisk play is to keep the opponent away from those compositions (which often means the zerg heavily relies on other units as well to force the "wrong antimutalisk" compositions). You simply cannot end every composition with mutalisks, though you can often end the compositions your opponent actually reaches with them. This goes especially for the Mech statement a little beyond that (but also for Protoss), where your condition for losing to Mutalisks with Mech was again "that their numbers get high". Which is simply not true. If you have a Thor/Raven/Viking fleet, I can have all the mutalisks in the world and they will not win the battle. Only if I can keep my opponent away from such compositions and get a decisive army advantage or my support units actually counter your anti air harder than your antiair counters my mutalisks, only then I can win with high mutalisk numbers. But that does not happen more often than not getting into that situation, according to statistics. So there is no imbalance, the ways to prevent getting into situations where mutas can kill you seem to be sufficient currently. If I propose Broodlords are a counter to Proxy Zealots, is that true? No, Zealots rape everything you have before you reach that. We can go on theorycrafting compositions, but you are taking my words so literally because it suits your argument well. That is also the reason you ignore the correction I made to it. Mutalisk are strong IMO, slightly too strong, against every possible composition, BE IT HEAD ON OR VIA HARRASSMENT, which you can encounter IN A REASONABLE TIMEFRAME, and Mutalisk require TOO MUCH OF A "PRE-ACTION" to succesfully deter. Also - what statistics? I took your words literally because you did not add anything more. Now that you added more, we can very well discuss about what you actually mean. Which is, what I take from it, that in actual gameplay mutalisks too often reach a state in which they counter what the opponent has/had to build. Right? (if that is not what you are saying, please elaborate it) I disagree with that. Proleague TvZ: 10-5 PvZ: 18-23 Code A TvZ: 13-17 (including the 1-6 stats of Daedalus) PvZ: 17-24 (including 3-8 stats of Deadalus) aligulac: TvZ: 49.41% PvZ: 50.13% The people involved in those guys seem to have reliable ways to not die to Zerg, so they can either reliable deal with mutalisks, or the zergs are playing it wrong. I'm usually inclined to not critizise a large amount of players for not getting how to fundamentally raise their winrates, so I'm going with "P/T do have ways to reliably deal with mutalisks when they occur". And in this context, reliably means that they don't stomp them (indicated by great winrates) or get stomped by them (indicated by low winrates), but sometimes they stop them and sometimes they don't. Just to avoid, any confusion, I'll expand on the line you wrote: In actual gameplay High counts of mutalisks recently seem like they too often reach a state in which they too strongly counter what the opponent has/had to build and lock down any good responses he can bring into the gameI won't take winrate stats in a discussion of whether Mutaclouds are too strong or not, given that A) metagame in TvZ seems not to have settled, and B) PvZ recently is more about Hosts than Mutas given how Protoss (because of the threat of mutas) opens. IMO, Mutalisk -MIGHT BE- too strong, especially against Terran on larger maps or with bad ground mobility (Frost, Heavy Rain) but also against Protoss if they do not blindly prepare (5 SG + instant 10 Phoenix + Range after an engagement "in case of"). Fair enough, but I got to say that I don't see that as a problem. It's one of the units that can end the game if you get the high count in certain situations - situations that I'd usually call advantageous for the zerg. On top of that, they are sometimes one of the reasons for those advantageous positions, which kind of sounds unfair, but imo that's also exactly what Terran bio relies upon as well(getting an advantage through mobility and then overrunning the opponent with superior numbers). And that can very well happen for other units too (VRs sniping bases, forcing certain reactions and then rolling through the Zerg with a little support in the high numbers; Protoss only warping in more stalkers after a favorable trade - for which they already used a lot of stalkers - against Zerg; similarily with Zealots against Terran...), though maybe not as often. I very well believe that mutas are one of the best units in the game - but based upon that argument alone there would have to be a lot of other rebalancings as well. So I think we are agreeing, somehow. Lets put it this way: IMO Mutalisk currently fulfill a role another Zerg unit should fulfill. Mutalisk can outright finish an opponent off with good play, and are sadly one of the only units that can do so. Zergling Baneling, Roach Hydra, Biomine, are all compositions that overpower; you smash them into your opponent and eventually overrun him with superior production. Mutalisk currently snowball as well, becoming an enormous threat in the lategame, in both harrassment and straight up engagements. Swarm hosts were supposed to do this now, but Sadly, they turned out poorly and all of a sudden DK thinks it's all fine and dandy. EDIT - I will not deny Mutalisk (like the Marine) is one of the best designed unit in this game, being strong, highly microable, but weak when used in the wrong way.
Hm, well, that has less to do with the Zerg units, but with the T/P units imo. Like, the units you are talking about that should have this gameending capability should be siege units, so SH and BL. But BL gets overcountered by Tempests or just VR-play and both SH and BL are just so bad against speedmedivac play while not doing particularily well against MMM in straight combat to begin with. Neither of them is actually bad, but you don't want to get them against what the opponent could do or does already.
I think what TheDwf suggests - halving the regen or something along those lines (0.5-0.75hp/second) - would actually be nice, without really destroying their current role(s) and the current balancing and something that shouldn't have too huge of an impact on a Zergs chances to win a game against P/T, while still providing a little bit of help when facing mass mutalisks.
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TheDwf suggests a lot of very sensible things, sadly, nobody in charge ever listens 
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Sadly David Kim Never listens... If we listened to DWF the game would actually be fun again and have some strong sense of balance.... oh dare to dream
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On February 08 2014 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. Yeah quite fine, If you think that having your enemy sit at 5k3k bank is doing fine,then i dunno^^ Mutas are just stupid at the moment, you dance from base to base and kill stuff, maybe you lose one muta here and there, but they are basically always on full health... Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. Ah cmon, he did built just enough swarmhosts to "sit back" and a huge mutaball to fly from base to base and snipe stuff. The problem is that mutas are extremely "noobfriendly" right now, you have to fuck up REALLY bad to lose them. What was innovation supposed to do? Turrets don't work, having 3 thors at every base too? I am a Zerg player myself but mutas are definitely not fine atm Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. exactly, it was extremely obvious at the IEM match between soulkey and innovation
I am talking about the second game. Soulkey never had a bank (i'm talking about gas, minerals don't matter against mech) or at least not much higher than Inno.
http://fr.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/501168554 @3:04:57 Innovation is 26 supply ahead and has the same gas bank as Soulkey (which is quite worrying for the Zerg player).
Nefing regen makes sense. We will see more bio play in TvZ without impacting too much mechvZ and PvZ.
Nerfing speed is just stupid.
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On February 09 2014 00:17 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2014 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. Yeah quite fine, If you think that having your enemy sit at 5k3k bank is doing fine,then i dunno^^ Mutas are just stupid at the moment, you dance from base to base and kill stuff, maybe you lose one muta here and there, but they are basically always on full health... On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. Ah cmon, he did built just enough swarmhosts to "sit back" and a huge mutaball to fly from base to base and snipe stuff. The problem is that mutas are extremely "noobfriendly" right now, you have to fuck up REALLY bad to lose them. What was innovation supposed to do? Turrets don't work, having 3 thors at every base too? I am a Zerg player myself but mutas are definitely not fine atm On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. exactly, it was extremely obvious at the IEM match between soulkey and innovation I am talking about the second game. Soulkey never had a bank (i'm talking about gas, minerals don't matter against mech) or at least not much higher than Inno. http://fr.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/501168554 @3:04:57 Innovation is 26 supply ahead and has the same gas bank as Soulkey (which is quite worrying for the Zerg player). Nefing regen makes sense. We will see more bio play in TvZ without impacting too much mechvZ and PvZ. Nerfing speed is just stupid.
Care to elaborate on why that is "just stupid"?
Speedivacs?
All in all, the nerf is tiny vs bio, but at the speed of mech, that means entire seconds. Phoenix would need a speedreduce too tho
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On February 09 2014 00:43 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 00:17 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. Yeah quite fine, If you think that having your enemy sit at 5k3k bank is doing fine,then i dunno^^ Mutas are just stupid at the moment, you dance from base to base and kill stuff, maybe you lose one muta here and there, but they are basically always on full health... On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. Ah cmon, he did built just enough swarmhosts to "sit back" and a huge mutaball to fly from base to base and snipe stuff. The problem is that mutas are extremely "noobfriendly" right now, you have to fuck up REALLY bad to lose them. What was innovation supposed to do? Turrets don't work, having 3 thors at every base too? I am a Zerg player myself but mutas are definitely not fine atm On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. exactly, it was extremely obvious at the IEM match between soulkey and innovation I am talking about the second game. Soulkey never had a bank (i'm talking about gas, minerals don't matter against mech) or at least not much higher than Inno. http://fr.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/501168554 @3:04:57 Innovation is 26 supply ahead and has the same gas bank as Soulkey (which is quite worrying for the Zerg player). Nefing regen makes sense. We will see more bio play in TvZ without impacting too much mechvZ and PvZ. Nerfing speed is just stupid. Care to elaborate on why that is "just stupid"? Speedivacs? All in all, the nerf is tiny vs bio, but at the speed of mech, that means entire seconds. Phoenix would need a speedreduce too tho
Stargate openings are already deadly to mutalisks play and speedmedivacs are still scary. Yes Zerg players aren't clueless anymore about how to deal with them (like at the beginning of HOTS) but with weaker mutalisks and a T3 that isn't godly anymore Terrans risk of being waaay to good in the mid/late game (you have to look at the big picture not only medivacs).
Bio vs ling/bling/mutas makes close games with a slight advantage for Zerg (imho). With a double nerf (speed and regen) it'll get ugly for Zerg really fast. I don't think we want to see an infestor buff to compensate... :'D
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On February 09 2014 00:55 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 00:43 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 09 2014 00:17 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:45 Swiipii wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Innovation was doing quite fine until he lost patience (splitting his mech army, slowly reducing the muta count and always being even or ahead in economy) and got backstabbed by Soulkay's mutalisks. Bad example imho. Yeah quite fine, If you think that having your enemy sit at 5k3k bank is doing fine,then i dunno^^ Mutas are just stupid at the moment, you dance from base to base and kill stuff, maybe you lose one muta here and there, but they are basically always on full health... On February 08 2014 21:50 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 21:39 The_Red_Viper wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Did you watch Soulkey vs Innovation? Mutas are pain to deal with, cause they are so extremely strong in huge balls and extremely fast (ah and they don't really die anymore) Yes I watched it. And really, that is your clue why mutas are too strong against Mech? Because the best zerg player in the world can win a very close game while using them? OK, quick. I saw Bomber beating some Protoss with mines. Time to nerf them, they are way OP vs Protoss. Ah cmon, he did built just enough swarmhosts to "sit back" and a huge mutaball to fly from base to base and snipe stuff. The problem is that mutas are extremely "noobfriendly" right now, you have to fuck up REALLY bad to lose them. What was innovation supposed to do? Turrets don't work, having 3 thors at every base too? I am a Zerg player myself but mutas are definitely not fine atm On February 08 2014 21:56 gillon wrote:On February 08 2014 21:34 Big J wrote:On February 08 2014 18:02 SC2Toastie wrote:
Problem: Mutalisks in every non mirror
Solution: Revert Regen & Speed buffs
Side Effects: None
Recently I have noticed Zergs can actually end every composition with a high mutalisk count.
ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch kills Protoss if they haven't made 5 Stargates blindly,
ZvT, Mech, Biomine lose when Mutalisk numbers get high, Biotank is pretty much unplayable because of the Mutalisk.
Opinions?
It makes sense too. Mutalisk got a buff because of the Mine, now the mine is bad, so revert the buffs mutalisk (and overseers?) got to combat them. Makes no sense for PvZ, without a strong mutalisk the matchup would be a pain in the ass. At the end of WoL mutalisks were only playable against Protoss because you'd always win the baserace and if Protoss moved out too late you'd be able to transition to BL/Infestor. In HotS however Protoss has recall to deal with the baserace problem and could just sit out the mutalisks without regen, making them worse than in WoL in which they were already very weak. TvZ vs bio-centric play you may have a point that they could be too strong. Against Mech, no way. They are a good option, but not too strong. Your analysis is plainly wrong - Zerg cannot end every composition with a high mutalisks count. You can't engage a VR/Templar mix with mutas, neither a good Thor/Viking count, nor a good Marine/Mine count, nor a good Stalker/Archon/Templar... Mutalisks are often viable in those scenarios because they can go where the army is not, but they cannot "end those compositions" with the mutalisks. You need stuff like mass banelings, or mass swarm hosts to deal with the army while you harass with your mutas and then you may eventually pile up an advantage that let's you engage. ZvP, the mass mutalisk switch does not kill Protoss. What kills Protoss is the trade before the switch. ZvT, Mech does not lose when Mutalisk numbers get high. against biomine I'm not sure, my heart is saying there could be a problem, my brain is saying that Zergs composition is way more costly than Terrans when it reaches that state making equal supplycounts quite meaningless and the real problem is Terran's lack of transition options. Anyways, there does not seem to be a problem in TvZ currently and biomine is being played a lot, so I don't see why you'd want to make balancechanges for that matchup. Last thing, there is no source saying that mutalisk regeneration was introduced to deal with mines. Of course it helps, but as far as we know there is no causality between those two. The strength of the mutalisk isn't it's straight up strength. It's the fact that once you get to a certain number, the opponent can never move out without losing his entire infrastructure. At a certain point static defense, no matter the number, can't hold them back. And leaving a bit of your army isn't an option because of how much faster the mutalisk bunch can rejoin their side compared to the opponents army. So you're stuck in your base, slowly losing the game while the zerg gets free reign on the map, taking all of the bases. This is purely from a TvZ POV, can't speak for PvZ. exactly, it was extremely obvious at the IEM match between soulkey and innovation I am talking about the second game. Soulkey never had a bank (i'm talking about gas, minerals don't matter against mech) or at least not much higher than Inno. http://fr.twitch.tv/esltv_sc2/b/501168554 @3:04:57 Innovation is 26 supply ahead and has the same gas bank as Soulkey (which is quite worrying for the Zerg player). Nefing regen makes sense. We will see more bio play in TvZ without impacting too much mechvZ and PvZ. Nerfing speed is just stupid. Care to elaborate on why that is "just stupid"? Speedivacs? All in all, the nerf is tiny vs bio, but at the speed of mech, that means entire seconds. Phoenix would need a speedreduce too tho Stargate openings are already deadly to mutalisks play and speedmedivacs are still scary. Yes Zerg players aren't clueless anymore about how to deal with them (like at the beginning of HOTS) but with weaker mutalisks and a T3 that isn't godly anymore Terrans risk of being waaay to good in the mid/late game (you have to look at the big picture not only medivacs). Bio vs ling/bling/mutas makes close games with a slight advantage for Zerg (imho). With a double nerf (speed and regen) it'll get ugly for Zerg really fast. I don't think we want to see an infestor buff to compensate... :'D
You haven't responded to why reverting speed too would be a problem. The difference vs biomine is negligable, but for mech, it makes quite the difference, you'll gain less distance relatively.
Not to say I think speed should go down; I think regen to normal would be fine.
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Starcraft has way too much mobility sometimes. Starbow removed creep speed bonus, gutted mutalisk and zergling speed, and zerg still feels plenty mobile.
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On February 09 2014 01:29 Grumbels wrote:
Starcraft has way too much mobility sometimes. Starbow removed creep speed bonus, gutted mutalisk and zergling speed, and zerg still feels plenty mobile. The maps are also much smaller on average in Starbow.
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EPT
