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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 10 2014 11:47 plogamer wrote: I'm with this. If Blink all-in hits when Terran has medivacs out, it would change the dynamic quite a bit. The relation between stim timing and medivac timing isn't so obvious, but I see what you mean. | ||
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Ultramation
Vietnam11 Posts
I understand that nerfing the msc affect pvp alot, but the main problem with protoss is their shields, which make them so strong in the late game, so i suggest providing skills that counter shields for other races: Ex: _ Photon overcharge still last 60s, but shoot slower, its first hit doesnt deal damage but remove 100 shield (if that unit has shield). This require a player to micro his nexus to shoot each units to remove their shields first. This make PO weaker vs other races but a lot stronger in pvp. _ Reapers has a default ability to deal bonus damage to shield, this make them a bigger thread in pvt, a reasonable number of reapers can also help dealing with blink all in, but u cant over commit in early game because u will have no marine to deal with protoss air units. _ Tanks also have bonus damage to shield (definitely better counter for blink, and help mech a lot more i think) _ Corrupter now have mana have a new skill of stealing shield (50 mana for 50 shield for example), with the maximum of 100 mana. Combine with fungal, this could be a very strong combo for zerg to deal with protoss late game deathball, require more micro and also, make them more vulnerable to HT feedback. _ Make protoss a little bit harder mechanically (ex: charge is no longer auto cast) _ About the SH i think make them no longer benefit to upgrade, locusts move faster but spawn slower, thus make them more mid game offensive units then defensive units. Thank you. | ||
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pineappledog
3 Posts
On February 10 2014 12:46 Ultramation wrote: Hi, i'm a low master high diamond players, i know i'm no pro but here are my thoughts: I understand that nerfing the msc affect pvp alot, but the main problem with protoss is their shields, which make them so strong in the late game, so i suggest providing skills that counter shields for other races: Ex: _ Photon overcharge still last 60s, but shoot slower, its first hit doesnt deal damage but remove 100 shield (if that unit has shield). This require a player to micro his nexus to shoot each units to remove their shields first. This make PO weaker vs other races but a lot stronger in pvp. _ Reapers has a default ability to deal bonus damage to shield, this make them a bigger thread in pvt, a reasonable number of reapers can also help dealing with blink all in, but u cant over commit in early game because u will have no marine to deal with protoss air units. _ Tanks also have bonus damage to shield (definitely better counter for blink, and help mech a lot more i think) _ Corrupter now have mana have a new skill of stealing shield (50 mana for 50 shield for example), with the maximum of 100 mana. Combine with fungal, this could be a very strong combo for zerg to deal with protoss late game deathball, require more micro and also, make them more vulnerable to HT feedback. _ Make protoss a little bit harder mechanically (ex: charge is no longer auto cast) _ About the SH i think make them no longer benefit to upgrade, locusts move faster but spawn slower, thus make them more mid game offensive units then defensive units. Thank you. "i suggest providing skills that counter shields for other races"....and you got to masters?!?! (ps I am talking about EMP) You want photon overcharge to 1 hit the shields of other protoss units? - ridiculous Reapers are meant for scouting and threat to keep the opponent at home since they kill workers so fast. Basically you are saying you want to get a free stalker kill with your reaper scout? Tanks blah blah blah vs blink, stalkers with blink just blink ontop of the tanks then they are useless no matter how much damage they do to shields. Corrupters already counter coloss, they would counter archons and all air with this ability as well as the transition to broodlords. OP Charge sounds ok I guess but charge is as much for the increase in standard movement speed as the actual charge. Personally I dont mind SHs, I would prefer if like you said with charge, they had to be cast. | ||
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Waise
3165 Posts
On February 10 2014 12:46 Ultramation wrote: interesting idea to augment the defender's advantage in pvp. seems like it would be really really strong, but maybe that's what pvp needs to remove the "rock paper scissors" aspect. the micro-promoting aspect of it is really nice to hear as well. i like design tweaking ideas like yours much more than ideas like "increase a number by 1" or "remove bio tag from unit"_ Photon overcharge still last 60s, but shoot slower, its first hit doesnt deal damage but remove 100 shield (if that unit has shield). This require a player to micro his nexus to shoot each units to remove their shields first. This make PO weaker vs other races but a lot stronger in pvp. On February 10 2014 12:46 Ultramation wrote:_ Reapers has a default ability to deal bonus damage to shield, this make them a bigger thread in pvt, a reasonable number of reapers can also help dealing with blink all in, but u cant over commit in early game because u will have no marine to deal with protoss air units. hmm... while i wouldn't say it's "viable", i've heard of GM level terrans using mass reaper and winning just because protoss isn't expecting it and doesn't react in time. i would be worried that a reaper buff vs protoss might make mass reaper a viable cheese or might make reaper openings too strong against probes? zerg player though so grain of salt!On February 10 2014 12:46 Ultramation wrote:_ Corrupter now have mana have a new skill of stealing shield (50 mana for 50 shield for example), with the maximum of 100 mana. Combine with fungal, this could be a very strong combo for zerg to deal with protoss late game deathball, require more micro and also, make them more vulnerable to HT feedback. i liked this idea until you mentioned feedback. why would you make corruptors vulnerable to feedback? templar already hardcounter infestors and vipers if you have good caster micro. one of the main reasons for zerg swarm host bullshit is that not only both of our casters but all of our midgame core DPS units are countered by templar (viper, infestor, ling/roach/hydra) and templar tech can even help against mutalisks with archons and storm, so the only solid counter zerg has for templar is swarm hosts, which work by preventing templar from drifting forward to feedback everything in sight. i don't think templar need to counter anything else. they already counter a lot of things lol | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 10 2014 09:37 plogamer wrote: Such OP free units. Oh gawd. Please stop the onslaught of autoturrets and PDDs and call-down supply! Oh lawrd! free buildings... that's what it was all about... | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
So this would mean that a Nexus would be stripped of it's shield as soon as PO is cast on it. It would only start regenerating shield when PO ends or is turned off (would need a new button to make it stop). A Nexus without shields still has a bunch of hitpoints left, so it's still not too easy to destroy, when PO is active, but it's a little more vulnerable. It would force the Protoss into some hard decisions instead of just casting it mindlessly and it could create some very interesting scenarios. - If the mineral line is attacked and you cast PO to scare the attacker away, you make the Nexus vulnerable to damage on it's hitpoints. So the attacker may choose to take down the Nexus or atleast damage it for a later snipe instead of packing up and running away. - If the Nexus is attacked directly, you can wait until the shield is almost down from damage, before casting PO, effectively losing no shield from PO itself (during that time you can get some defensive units to help defend the Nexus certainly). - Relying on PO as only defensive measure has the risk of losing the shieldless Nexus. - When you cast PO on a Nexus, the attacker may choose to run off, only to come back immediately after PO ran out to use the fact that the Nexus isn't shooting anymore (like it is now) AND it only just started regenerating shields. - If PO was casted and the attacker ran away, you can switch PO off, to have the shield start regenerating earlier. But if the attacker pokes again immediately, you're left without PO, shields and time to gather more defensive units. Imho this shouldn't have a huge effect to the situation, where you use units AND PO as defense (which as far as I understand would be the biggest problem in PvP earlygame). | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
i mean terran got nerfed because of TvT (and all other possible reasons really) so i deem this not too unreasonable. oh well, i wish they would be a bit more daring at balancing, and by that i do mean nerfing protoss to the ground, but deal with the current problems AND give every race some other things to play with (example roachburrow) so dont delete upgrades left and right, make new useful ones etc. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 10 2014 11:32 Pirfiktshon wrote: I think If you simply nerfed the Blink Timing much like for the same reasons they Nerfed Stim timing then things would be better... or just rever tthe stim timing nerf.... Blink already takes 170 seconds, this is quite long and the upgrade is not only used for Blink timings in PvT. | ||
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drkcid
Spain196 Posts
And please, no more balance changes like "here this unit makes extra damage-to-shields-but-only-in-radius-damage-full-if-its-air-but-none-if-is-MSC" why not just keep the plain old +2 to armor, + 5 to bio or something like that  . | ||
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geokilla
Canada8240 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 10 2014 11:47 plogamer wrote: I'm with this. If Blink all-in hits when Terran has medivacs out, it would change the dynamic quite a bit. Yes, Terran would win literally every single time. The whole point of the blink timing is to go around the bunkers and hit before Medivacs are out. You risk potentially having no AOE to kill the Terran before his bio goes god-mode. That's the tradeoff. Blink has been nerfed many times. It takes 170 seconds to research. I think the issue really is the map pool. Nobody discusses this, but every single map is really good for Protoss in PvT right now because the maps are big and easy to hide tech on and also very easy to Blink-allin on. So Terran has to scout for every single allin and Protoss can just not allin and be greedy instead. We saw PartinG beat Maru with 1 Time Warp yesterday. I don't think the game designers are addressing the right issues. Blink allins are not strong because Time Warp is too cheap. | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
On February 11 2014 01:06 DinoMight wrote: Yes, Terran would win literally every single time. The whole point of the blink timing is to go around the bunkers and hit before Medivacs are out. You risk potentially having no AOE to kill the Terran before his bio goes god-mode. That's the tradeoff. Blink has been nerfed many times. It takes 170 seconds to research. I think the issue really is the map pool. Nobody discusses this, but every single map is really good for Protoss in PvT right now because the maps are big and easy to hide tech on and also very easy to Blink-allin on. So Terran has to scout for every single allin and Protoss can just not allin and be greedy instead. We saw PartinG beat Maru with 1 Time Warp yesterday. I don't think the game designers are addressing the right issues. Blink allins are not strong because Time Warp is too cheap. Map making is already super limited. So know they cant make even remotely blink friendly maps either? Protoss is singlehandedly killing any innovative maps since wol... Id rather see they fix protoss than limit maps even more. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On February 11 2014 00:56 geokilla wrote: https://twitter.com/MCtoss2/status/432893305295499264 https://twitter.com/MCtoss2/status/432893459654254592 my sarcasm detector exploded!! I love you anyways MC. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 11 2014 01:26 Snusmumriken wrote: Map making is already super limited. So know they cant make even remotely blink friendly maps either? Protoss is singlehandedly killing any innovative maps since wol... Id rather see they fix protoss than limit maps even more. Stop exaggerating so much. Terran and Zerg also have map requirements. As we saw with Daedalus point, the ramp has to be a certain size. And as other maps have shown, the 3rd base can't be too far otherwise Z is very weak to certain timings. If you just added some trees or something to the side of the cliff so you couldn't blink into the main except in a specific area it would not affect anything else. A lot of the multiplayer maps have this feature already.. it would be very easy to do for single player. Just make it so blink is *viable on some of the maps rather than *very viable on every single map and I guarantee you won't have to touch the MsC to see Terran win more against Blink and vs. Protoss in general. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On February 11 2014 01:30 DinoMight wrote: Stop exaggerating so much. Terran and Zerg also have map requirements. As we saw with Daedalus point, the ramp has to be a certain size. And as other maps have shown, the 3rd base can't be too far otherwise Z is very weak to certain timings. If you just added some trees or something to the side of the cliff so you couldn't blink into the main except in a specific area it would not affect anything else. A lot of the multiplayer maps have this feature already.. it would be very easy to do for single player. Just make it so blink is *viable on some of the maps rather than *very viable on every single map and I guarantee you won't have to touch the MsC to see Terran win more against Blink and vs. Protoss in general. MSC is a defensive unit. Can you explain why it needs 14 range vision? | ||
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cpower
228 Posts
Keep all spells for MSC but you can only cast one type of spells during its life time. Once one type of the spell is casted (time wrap for example), you can not cast PO even you have enough energy. You could destroy it and build another one to have all 3 spells enabled again. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 11 2014 01:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: MSC is a defensive unit. Can you explain why it needs 14 range vision? How did you just decide that MsC is a defensive unit? It's not. It's multi-purpose. It serves as a great scouting tool in PvP. It's good for defense early in PvT but later on is a lot more useful on offense. Blizzard gives the players units and it's up to them to figure out how to use it. Not up to you. What's your problem with it having 14 vision? If they remade the maps to favor Blink play less... why does 14 vision upset you in this scenario? It's slow as hell and has pretty low DPS when it's just floating around the map. In PvP the vision is nice because you can scout your opponent but see what he's doing from far enough away that you can run your MsC from Stalkers and have it survive. What's the point of scouting a Blink allin if your MsC dies and you don't have the PO to hold it anyway? | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote: How did you just decide that MsC is a defensive unit? It's not. It's multi-purpose. It serves as a great scouting tool in PvP. It's good for defense early in PvT but later on is a lot more useful on offense. Blizzard gives the players units and it's up to them to figure out how to use it. Not up to you. What's your problem with it having 14 vision? If they remade the maps to favor Blink play less... why does 14 vision upset you in this scenario? It's slow as hell and has pretty low DPS when it's just floating around the map. In PvP the vision is nice because you can scout your opponent but see what he's doing from far enough away that you can run your MsC from Stalkers and have it survive. What's the point of scouting a Blink allin if your MsC dies and you don't have the PO to hold it anyway? At there lies the problem, the MSC is too versatile. It started out as a defensive unit to allow Protoss to have more flexibility in the early game and then the devs in their infinite wisdom decided to also give it an auto-attack, scouting utility, offensive utility and army support along with the defensive power it had. The MsC is way, way, way too versatile for its cost. So what should we do? Should we really restrict map making some more just because of ONE race? Really?! Map making is already a huge fucking mess because of the limitation protoss impose upon their design due to FF. Deadelus was proof of concept. The infestor was nerfed for the exact same reason, it was too versatile. It had a spell that was instant cast, had a long range, dealt damage over time and was also a root, and they could spawn an army for just energy. The root and IT served all functions, from defense, to offense, to utility, to catching drops, to allowing the army to retreat. Its time for you to wake up and smell the roses, the MsC is due a massive nerf its scouting, utility and offensive powers. Also take into consideration this, Protoss already has good scouting tools in observers, oracles and hallucinations, protoss already has some of the strongest all-ins and on top of that they have massive defensive power. Under these circumstances, would it hurt Protoss to lose some of that offensive power? Absolutely not, in fact if protoss has such a strong defensive tool and if Blizzard is so adamant about it being this strong, then it stand to reason that protoss offensive power needs to be gutted. Oh you don't want that? Fine the MsC could get to keep some of its offensive power and utility, but it should still take a nerf in its defensive power, a risk reward added to the PO should be there, no more double PO or PO from a huge range. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On February 11 2014 03:14 Destructicon wrote: At there lies the problem, the MSC is too versatile. It started out as a defensive unit to allow Protoss to have more flexibility in the early game and then the devs in their infinite wisdom decided to also give it an auto-attack, scouting utility, offensive utility and army support along with the defensive power it had. The MsC is way, way, way too versatile for its cost. So what should we do? Should we really restrict map making some more just because of ONE race? Really?! Map making is already a huge fucking mess because of the limitation protoss impose upon their design due to FF. Deadelus was proof of concept. The infestor was nerfed for the exact same reason, it was too versatile. It had a spell that was instant cast, had a long range, dealt damage over time and was also a root, and they could spawn an army for just energy. The root and IT served all functions, from defense, to offense, to utility, to catching drops, to allowing the army to retreat. Its time for you to wake up and smell the roses, the MsC is due a massive nerf its scouting, utility and offensive powers. Also take into consideration this, Protoss already has good scouting tools in observers, oracles and hallucinations, protoss already has some of the strongest all-ins and on top of that they have massive defensive power. Under these circumstances, would it hurt Protoss to lose some of that offensive power? Absolutely not, in fact if protoss has such a strong defensive tool and if Blizzard is so adamant about it being this strong, then it stand to reason that protoss offensive power needs to be gutted. Oh you don't want that? Fine the MsC could get to keep some of its offensive power and utility, but it should still take a nerf in its defensive power, a risk reward added to the PO should be there, no more double PO or PO from a huge range. You literally just repeated what the guy before you said, taking into consideration nothing of what I just wrote and addressing none of my points. This thread is a waste of time. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 03:17 DinoMight wrote: You literally just repeated what the guy before you said, taking into consideration nothing of what I just wrote and addressing none of my points. This thread is a waste of time. No, what you said is a waste of time, you refuse to acknowledge that the unit is too versatile and that trough its versatility it is breaking multiple MUs by providing Protoss with too much power in all stages of the game. You also refuse to address any of our points regarding this versatility, and its implications, hell you even refuse to debate with us on a logical and fairness scale. | ||
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