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On February 11 2014 03:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 03:14 Destructicon wrote:On February 11 2014 02:37 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 01:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:On February 11 2014 01:30 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 01:26 Snusmumriken wrote:On February 11 2014 01:06 DinoMight wrote:On February 10 2014 11:47 plogamer wrote:On February 10 2014 11:32 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I think If you simply nerfed the Blink Timing much like for the same reasons they Nerfed Stim timing then things would be better... or just rever tthe stim timing nerf.... I'm with this. If Blink all-in hits when Terran has medivacs out, it would change the dynamic quite a bit. Yes, Terran would win literally every single time. The whole point of the blink timing is to go around the bunkers and hit before Medivacs are out. You risk potentially having no AOE to kill the Terran before his bio goes god-mode. That's the tradeoff. Blink has been nerfed many times. It takes 170 seconds to research. I think the issue really is the map pool. Nobody discusses this, but every single map is really good for Protoss in PvT right now because the maps are big and easy to hide tech on and also very easy to Blink-allin on. So Terran has to scout for every single allin and Protoss can just not allin and be greedy instead. We saw PartinG beat Maru with 1 Time Warp yesterday. I don't think the game designers are addressing the right issues. Blink allins are not strong because Time Warp is too cheap. Map making is already super limited. So know they cant make even remotely blink friendly maps either? Protoss is singlehandedly killing any innovative maps since wol... Id rather see they fix protoss than limit maps even more. Stop exaggerating so much. Terran and Zerg also have map requirements. As we saw with Daedalus point, the ramp has to be a certain size. And as other maps have shown, the 3rd base can't be too far otherwise Z is very weak to certain timings. If you just added some trees or something to the side of the cliff so you couldn't blink into the main except in a specific area it would not affect anything else. A lot of the multiplayer maps have this feature already.. it would be very easy to do for single player. Just make it so blink is *viable on some of the maps rather than *very viable on every single map and I guarantee you won't have to touch the MsC to see Terran win more against Blink and vs. Protoss in general. MSC is a defensive unit. Can you explain why it needs 14 range vision? How did you just decide that MsC is a defensive unit? It's not. It's multi-purpose. It serves as a great scouting tool in PvP. It's good for defense early in PvT but later on is a lot more useful on offense. Blizzard gives the players units and it's up to them to figure out how to use it. Not up to you. What's your problem with it having 14 vision? If they remade the maps to favor Blink play less... why does 14 vision upset you in this scenario? It's slow as hell and has pretty low DPS when it's just floating around the map. In PvP the vision is nice because you can scout your opponent but see what he's doing from far enough away that you can run your MsC from Stalkers and have it survive. What's the point of scouting a Blink allin if your MsC dies and you don't have the PO to hold it anyway? At there lies the problem, the MSC is too versatile. It started out as a defensive unit to allow Protoss to have more flexibility in the early game and then the devs in their infinite wisdom decided to also give it an auto-attack, scouting utility, offensive utility and army support along with the defensive power it had. The MsC is way, way, way too versatile for its cost. So what should we do? Should we really restrict map making some more just because of ONE race? Really?! Map making is already a huge fucking mess because of the limitation protoss impose upon their design due to FF. Deadelus was proof of concept. The infestor was nerfed for the exact same reason, it was too versatile. It had a spell that was instant cast, had a long range, dealt damage over time and was also a root, and they could spawn an army for just energy. The root and IT served all functions, from defense, to offense, to utility, to catching drops, to allowing the army to retreat. Its time for you to wake up and smell the roses, the MsC is due a massive nerf its scouting, utility and offensive powers. Also take into consideration this, Protoss already has good scouting tools in observers, oracles and hallucinations, protoss already has some of the strongest all-ins and on top of that they have massive defensive power. Under these circumstances, would it hurt Protoss to lose some of that offensive power? Absolutely not, in fact if protoss has such a strong defensive tool and if Blizzard is so adamant about it being this strong, then it stand to reason that protoss offensive power needs to be gutted. Oh you don't want that? Fine the MsC could get to keep some of its offensive power and utility, but it should still take a nerf in its defensive power, a risk reward added to the PO should be there, no more double PO or PO from a huge range. You literally just repeated what the guy before you said, taking into consideration nothing of what I just wrote and addressing none of my points. This thread is a waste of time.
Dude, you are refusing to see anything outside your thick racial bias. The msc is basically a hero unit where none of the other races get a hero. It fits every role. There is nothing toss doesnt gain by getting one.
Well herpty derp pvp is nice with msc, both sides have one.
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Blizz needs to own up to their mistakes with the MSC and put its spells on the Nexus like they should have. Give the Nexus an "Orbital Command" and "Planetary Fortress" upgrade that lets it spend its energy on buffed versions of (Chrono/Recall) or (Planetary Nexus) spells.
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I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you want to do that Mothership Core having 14 vision does not allow you to do.
I made a very specific point about how limiting Blink surface area on the maps (something that can be done without impacting anything OTHER than Blink) would address the vision concern - namely that the vision is a problem because of Blink allins. This point was completely ignored.
So basically your point is that the MsC is too versatile? As in you don't want Protoss to have it just because. This is a bad argument. I can understand if you're telling me that PO is too strong on defense, or that it does too much DPS for its cost, or something specific like that.
But to say that a unit is "too versatile" as a blanket statement is just not an argument. Should we remove the Marine from the game then? It's a 1 supply 50 minerals 0 gas unit you can make two at a time that Terran literally makes in every single game of StarCraft against every composition. Of course not. Units can be versatile. That's fine. As long as it doesn't break the game then okay.
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. Are there scenarios that benefit from it? Yes (PvP).
Wouldn't it make sense to just slightly alter the maps then? You could put some trees by the cliff and keep the map the same. This addresses the Blink issue and doesn't change the map otherwise.
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On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you want to do that Mothership Core having 14 vision does not allow you to do.
I made a very specific point about how limiting Blink surface area on the maps (something that can be done without impacting anything OTHER than Blink) would address the vision concern - namely that the vision is a problem because of Blink allins. This point was completely ignored.
So basically your point is that the MsC is too versatile? As in you don't want Protoss to have it just because. This is a bad argument. I can understand if you're telling me that PO is too strong on defense, or that it does too much DPS for its cost, or something specific like that.
But to say that a unit is "too versatile" as a blanket statement is just not an argument. Should we remove the Marine from the game then? It's a 1 supply 50 minerals 0 gas unit you can make two at a time that Terran literally makes in every single game of StarCraft against every composition. Of course not. Units can be versatile. That's fine. As long as it doesn't break the game then okay.
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. Are there scenarios that benefit from it? Yes (PvP).
Wouldn't it make sense to just slightly alter the maps then?
There were many maps before with the same surface area, the problem is not that the maps are so good for it...
You don't need an observer for it anymore, that's the real deal...
Ofc we could make maps that are even more boring than now, but that isn't good for the game either.
You said you are fine with the vision cause of pvp, well i think there are other ways to scout for protoss players, there really is no need for the msc to have that vision range.
There simply would be more risk for the toss if we would nerf the vision range and i think blizzard will and should do it
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I dont like passive play and free units so i thought... What if SH could shoot only when in range of the enemy target and locust cost 25 minerals and also SH could be cheaper and faster.
Also, Ravens could have only 1 PDD at a time
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On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No.
? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking...
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On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking...
Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases.
I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say.
And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much.
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On February 11 2014 04:02 ivancype wrote:
I dont like passive play and free units so i thought... What if SH could shoot only when in range of the enemy target and locust cost 25 minerals and also SH could be cheaper and faster.
Also, Ravens could have only 1 PDD at a time
It would help a lot if spawning locust was an ability you would have to click on yourself.
What if swarmhosts could spawn locusts while moving (they can no longer burrow without upgrade) similar to Infestors.
The locusts would have limited range/time, you must run forward with your SH, spawn the locousts (actively), then run away again (perhaps to another base you want to attack).
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On February 11 2014 04:17 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:02 ivancype wrote:
I dont like passive play and free units so i thought... What if SH could shoot only when in range of the enemy target and locust cost 25 minerals and also SH could be cheaper and faster.
Also, Ravens could have only 1 PDD at a time It would help a lot if spawning locust was an ability you would have to click on yourself. What if swarmhosts could spawn locusts while moving (they can no longer burrow without upgrade) similar to Infestors. The locusts would have limited range/time, you must run forward with your SH, spawn the locousts (actively), then run away again (perhaps to another base you want to attack).
I think a lot of people agree that the Locust range/durability needs to be reduced and the regeneration rate should be faster. That way you can't just park the Swarm hosts at a super safe distance and let them do their thing with impunity.
Zergs would keep moving them and hitting different places kind of like protoss does right now with Warp Prisms or Terrans with multi prong bio attacks/drops.
Simply having to click on the SH would make it harder for people on the ladder but I think at the top in games like today's ProLeague it won't matter much. In that late game scenario the Zerg is doing very little anyway so they have the apm to just click.
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horrible games to watch today. Fix this game please, that last patch did nothing
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On February 11 2014 04:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
There were many maps before with the same surface area, the problem is not that the maps are so good for it...
You don't need an observer for it anymore, that's the real deal...
Ofc we could make maps that are even more boring than now, but that isn't good for the game either.
You said you are fine with the vision cause of pvp, well i think there are other ways to scout for protoss players, there really is no need for the msc to have that vision range.
There simply would be more risk for the toss if we would nerf the vision range and i think blizzard will and should do it
Well, now that the high ground vision no longer requires an observer those maps are even better for it than they were. Thus they should try to reduce the effectiveness of Blink allin.
They nerfed blink build time already to 170 seconds.
As a second step, they could make the maps less blink friendly. If they made all the maps like Habitation Station and Belshir I guarantee you'd never see Blink again! It's an entirely map dependent strategy.
The problem with PvP is you can't scout after the 1st Stalker comes out UNTIL YOU COMIT TO TECH. So both players have to pick a tech path blindly because Stalkers deny probe scouting. This makes for very coinflippy games. Either you go Phoenix to scout and die to DT, or you use your observer to scout and die to someone going 3 gate Stargate...etc.
MsC allows yout to poke in and get some information before you are fully committed to tech. So it makes the games a lot less coinflippy. If you watch Parting play he ofte will float in his MsC to scout tech and react accordingly.
This is something you can do in other MUs (ZvZ with overlords / TvT with reapers/scans) but PvP cannot scout after worker scout without tech.
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On February 11 2014 04:28 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:
There were many maps before with the same surface area, the problem is not that the maps are so good for it...
You don't need an observer for it anymore, that's the real deal...
Ofc we could make maps that are even more boring than now, but that isn't good for the game either.
You said you are fine with the vision cause of pvp, well i think there are other ways to scout for protoss players, there really is no need for the msc to have that vision range.
There simply would be more risk for the toss if we would nerf the vision range and i think blizzard will and should do it Well, now that the high ground vision no longer requires an observer those maps are even better for it than they were. Thus they should try to reduce the effectiveness of Blink allin. They nerfed blink build time already to 170 seconds. As a second step, they could make the maps less blink friendly. If they made all the maps like Habitation Station and Belshir I guarantee you'd never see Blink again! It's an entirely map dependent strategy. The problem with PvP is you can't scout after the 1st Stalker comes out UNTIL YOU COMIT TO TECH. So both players have to pick a tech path blindly because Stalkers deny probe scouting. This makes for very coinflippy games. Either you go Phoenix to scout and die to DT, or you use your observer to scout and die to someone going 3 gate Stargate...etc. MsC allows yout to poke in and get some information before you are fully committed to tech. So it makes the games a lot less coinflippy. If you watch Parting play he ofte will float in his MsC to scout tech and react accordingly. This is something you can do in other MUs (ZvZ with overlords / TvT with reapers/scans) but PvP cannot scout after worker scout without tech. I'm of the opinion PvP being a terrible matchup because Protoss is a missdesigned race is no reason to allow the MSC to cut early game out of 2 other matchups.
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On February 11 2014 04:17 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:02 ivancype wrote:
I dont like passive play and free units so i thought... What if SH could shoot only when in range of the enemy target and locust cost 25 minerals and also SH could be cheaper and faster.
Also, Ravens could have only 1 PDD at a time It would help a lot if spawning locust was an ability you would have to click on yourself. What if swarmhosts could spawn locusts while moving (they can no longer burrow without upgrade) similar to Infestors. The locusts would have limited range/time, you must run forward with your SH, spawn the locousts (actively), then run away again (perhaps to another base you want to attack).
That is what I thought, make SH more of a harass unit instead of a core unit, but you would still be able to use it defensively, if you pay for the locusts.
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On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much.
The problem with 14 sight range while doing a blink all in is that toss is able to assess the defensive setup of the terran for free without any micro requirement or risk to the MSC. Like photon overcharge it is just so easy to execute. In the old days toss players at least had to think about the observer placement and risk it being sniped if they wanted to know were the terran army is, or if the scvs are already in position on the bunker. Not only is the MSC ultra versatile, its also very easy to use. I also can not understand why protoss of all the races needed yet another terrain altering spell. Forcefields at least were a little bit difficult to cast right and enabled counter micro. Timewarp on the other hand is even more stupid and ez to use. No need to cut of parts of armies with multiple prepositioned sentries that also need to be microed back. In HOTS you just cast one spell with a huge radius directly on the army.
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On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow?
Theres nothing to see because terran cant do shit because... guess what. Because of the msc.
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On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow?
I don't know, the exact Terran opening for instance? Which allows Protoss to reactively get the perfect defence against a 1-1-1 pressure opening, for example (or even worse for Terran, get the minimum at home to defend while preparing a counter-attack that may kill Terran), or know they can tech at their heart's content if they scout 3 rax Medivacs, etc.
Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases.
Except Protoss can change his game plan or transitions almost at will, whereas what Protoss scouts is definitive. When Protoss scouts 3 rax, Terran cannot reactively change everything and go for a Mine drop or a Cloak Banshee. When Terran scouts a Council, even searching Blink, Protoss can then reactively choose not to commit, or cancel and build a Dark shrine instead, or get a third, or whatever, really. Terran's design makes sense, so they have linear builds that don't allow brutal deviations once scouted; thus having your pressure opening scouted at zero cost is more painful for the Terran side, especially as it means Protoss can then defend perfectly and remain ahead (see above).
And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much.
Unless it's as bad as TvT Hellbat drops, PvP mirror 4g or something, quality of life in a mirror matters considerably less than balance in a non-mirror match-up.
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On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much.
Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it.
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On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it.
I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange?
This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining.
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On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining.
Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much.
Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value.
It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now.
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On February 11 2014 05:05 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining. Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much. Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value. It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now.
Too versatile is not an argument. Too cost effective is an argument. Terrans have marines which are the most versatile unit in the game. Yet nobody is saying remove it.
ROFL. What exactly are we supposed to do with a blind floating unarmed 100/100 ball?
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EPT
