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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 05:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 05:05 sibs wrote:On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining. Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much. Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value. It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now. Too versatile is not an argument. Too cost effective is an argument. Terrans have marines which are the most versatile unit in the game. Yet nobody is saying remove it. ROFL. What exactly are we supposed to do with a blind floating unarmed 100/100 ball?
Same thing you do now, you keep it with your army so you can recall or TW, but you no longer send it ahead to scout, you keep it protected, or you keep it in your base and double PO. Having the MsC blind and unable to attack just removes the offensive potential and the scouting, something Protoss already has plenty of.
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On February 11 2014 05:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 05:05 sibs wrote:On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining. Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much. Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value. It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now. Too versatile is not an argument. Too cost effective is an argument. Terrans have marines which are the most versatile unit in the game. Yet nobody is saying remove it. ROFL. What exactly are we supposed to do with a blind floating unarmed 100/100 ball?
a) it's not about removing the MsC. 11vision and probably another tweak to TvP could do the trick.
b) marines get called out a lot for their combination of costefficiency+versatility. But they arent causing balanceproblems anymore, unlike the MsC.
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 08:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 05:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 05:05 sibs wrote:On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining. Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much. Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value. It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now. Too versatile is not an argument. Too cost effective is an argument. Terrans have marines which are the most versatile unit in the game. Yet nobody is saying remove it. ROFL. What exactly are we supposed to do with a blind floating unarmed 100/100 ball? a) it's not about removing the MsC. 11vision and probably another tweak to TvP could do the trick. b) marines get called out a lot for their combination of costefficiency+versatility. But they arent causing balanceproblems anymore, unlike the MsC.
I dunno Kev, if you ask certain people here on TL, they'd tell you Marines are the devil incarnate, raining down fire and brimstone upon zerg and protoss kind everywhere.
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On February 11 2014 08:47 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 08:32 Big J wrote:On February 11 2014 05:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 05:05 sibs wrote:On February 11 2014 04:49 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:45 shockaslim wrote:On February 11 2014 04:16 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 04:03 TheDwf wrote:On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. ? Of course there are. Protoss having early game maphack against Terran simply by poking (i. e. committing zero resource to scouting), Protoss having complete vision of Terran's defence and forces when all-inning (and not only with Blink) or simply attacking... Yes, but unless the Protoss is all-ining, then what's there for the MsC to see anyhow? There will be marines to push it away. Terran has Reapers to scout with around this time as well, so both can see each others bases. I just don't get what the big deal is. If you hide a building in the corner of your base you don't want Protoss to see and Protoss flies the MsC in to see it, it will die to marines. Or it will recall/Time warp and therefore not have mana left for Photon Overcharge. It's not just unlimited free scouting like you say. And I really don't think you understand how helpful the range is in PvP. I understand you play Terran and don't care, but it has improved the matchup SO much. Thats what we are trying to tell you! The MSC with 14 vision makes all-inning way too safe because you can see the Terran defense before you make any type of committal to an attack while keeping the MSC safe from being picked off. Also, since you have to open reaper first every single game, there is zero way to stop an MSC from scouting your whole base because you won't have enough marines to stop it. I see your point. So how low would you want the vision to be and would you be ok with it being a little faster in exchange? This is very different than "it's too versatile." Nice of someone to give a proper argument instead of just whining. Too versatile is a great argument, the unit is way too good for it's cost, it simply does way too much. Scouting, offense, defense, in any stage of the game, it way exceeds its value. It doesn't need to be faster, it could lose the vision and probably lose the AtG attack and also TW and it'd still be good, just wouldn't be the godlike unit that it is now. Too versatile is not an argument. Too cost effective is an argument. Terrans have marines which are the most versatile unit in the game. Yet nobody is saying remove it. ROFL. What exactly are we supposed to do with a blind floating unarmed 100/100 ball? a) it's not about removing the MsC. 11vision and probably another tweak to TvP could do the trick. b) marines get called out a lot for their combination of costefficiency+versatility. But they arent causing balanceproblems anymore, unlike the MsC. I dunno Kev, if you ask certain people here on TL, they'd tell you Marines are the devil incarnate, raining down fire and brimstone upon zerg and protoss kind everywhere.
Those are usually the most knowledgable people around, might I add!
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On February 11 2014 03:52 DinoMight wrote:
I'm not quite sure I understand what it is you want to do that Mothership Core having 14 vision does not allow you to do.
I made a very specific point about how limiting Blink surface area on the maps (something that can be done without impacting anything OTHER than Blink) would address the vision concern - namely that the vision is a problem because of Blink allins. This point was completely ignored.
So basically your point is that the MsC is too versatile? As in you don't want Protoss to have it just because. This is a bad argument. I can understand if you're telling me that PO is too strong on defense, or that it does too much DPS for its cost, or something specific like that.
But to say that a unit is "too versatile" as a blanket statement is just not an argument. Should we remove the Marine from the game then? It's a 1 supply 50 minerals 0 gas unit you can make two at a time that Terran literally makes in every single game of StarCraft against every composition. Of course not. Units can be versatile. That's fine. As long as it doesn't break the game then okay.
In the case of the vision then. When does the vision break the game? One could say Blink allins are too strong. Is there any other scenario where MsC having 14 vision is bad? No. Are there scenarios that benefit from it? Yes (PvP).
Wouldn't it make sense to just slightly alter the maps then? You could put some trees by the cliff and keep the map the same. This addresses the Blink issue and doesn't change the map otherwise.
Try to look at it from a map maker's perspective. Making blink unfriendly map means to include a lot of dead air-space into the main. Enjoy dealing with mutas and drops then. :\
Even then, Protoss can just walk up to the natural and blink from near the ramp...
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blizzard needs to re balance hellion/hell bat grouping. I liked them being separate when I ctl clicked a unit.
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Why do people even respond to DinoMight anymore? He's such an obvious, obnoxious troll. Just ignore him.
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Apart from the blink all in issue, isn't the main problem with TvP the protoss' ability to melt away a maxed terran army in seconds? Aren't storms and archons what need to be looked at?
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On February 12 2014 19:12 Tzuborg wrote:
Apart from the blink all in issue, isn't the main problem with TvP the protoss' ability to melt away a maxed terran army in seconds? Aren't storms and archons what need to be looked at?
No, because ghost
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It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p7HMQ50.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aS3RsuG.png)
Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy.
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On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy.
The fact PvT is still over 55% whilst the Terran representation is SUPERLOW means balance is way worse than those 55% indicate 0.0
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On February 12 2014 20:07 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 19:12 Tzuborg wrote:
Apart from the blink all in issue, isn't the main problem with TvP the protoss' ability to melt away a maxed terran army in seconds? Aren't storms and archons what need to be looked at? No, because ghost
The problem with Archons has more to do with instant reincforcements of a very strong and beefy splash unit after an engagement. Zealot Archon is so efficient with mass gateways that a remax is fast and VERY powerful.
In a normal engagement this can all be prevented with ghost control.
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On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. + Show Spoiler +Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy.
Just to laugh, is there a way to know how many vT games involved jjakji in those lists?
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On February 13 2014 00:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. + Show Spoiler +Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy. Just to laugh, is there a way to know how many vT games involved jjakji in those lists?
Checking Jjakji's recent games. I'll do it :D!
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On February 13 2014 00:14 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy. The fact PvT is still over 55% whilst the Terran representation is SUPERLOW means balance is way worse than those 55% indicate 0.0
Same goes for tvz which for anyone whos following the scene is clearly zerg-favoured as well, beyond the stats shown here. Albeit not as bad as tvp but still... Sad times to be terran.
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On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy.
I bet most of these Terran games are with very few Terrans, like Jjakji taking many of these Terran victories by himself.
The fact that there are so few games with Terran and still the statistics are so bad just showcase that the winpercentage probably is way wrose then the numbers show 
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Jjakji saving Terran statistics from looking awful
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On February 13 2014 00:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. + Show Spoiler +Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy. Just to laugh, is there a way to know how many vT games involved jjakji in those lists?
That's easy:
List 103 includes 24 Jjakji v P games (17-7, 71%). There are 445 PvT games in the list, Jjakji contributed 5% of the games.
List 104 includes 12 Jjakji vP games, (8-4, 67%). There are 226 PvT games in the list, Jjakji contributed 5% again.
Edit: In other words, list 103 without any Jjakji games would take a 2% hike in favour of P (59%) and list 104 would also be boosted by 2%, from 55% to 57% in favour of P.
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On February 13 2014 00:18 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2014 00:14 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 13 2014 00:08 Ghanburighan wrote:It's a while since we saw Aligulac lists, here's 103 (finished Feb the 5th) and the ongoing list 104 below it. Summary for T: PvT is looking bad, and terran representation is lousy. The fact PvT is still over 55% whilst the Terran representation is SUPERLOW means balance is way worse than those 55% indicate 0.0 Same goes for tvz which for anyone whos following the scene is clearly zerg-favoured as well, beyond the stats shown here. Albeit not as bad as tvp but still... Sad times to be terran.
Well, there's this interesting mechanism when a race is too weak, especially in both matchups.
Because players of the race don't even make qualifiers or die very early in normal tournaments, the winrate would be expected to sink, but it doesn't.
The experts of the races will get way higher winrates because they play against way inferior opponents.
EXAMPLE
Think EmpireHappy v BabyKnight v Taeja; I'd state Happy and BK are quite equal in level. If balance is off, BK goes 3-0 over Happy in qualifiers. BK is no match for Taeja however (No offense BK :O!) and Taeja goes 3-0 in a group stage. This kinda pattern repeats and we end up with something like this: PvT (Foreign P v Korean T) is 20-25.
You'd say winrates favor Terran, but now you look at the grand scheme of things. 45 games is about 8% of total games played. Ro32 in a Tournament has 3 terrans and 16 Protosses.
Winrates are even if not in favor of Terran, but is this indicative of a balanced game? Currently, SC2 is looking like this.
Foreign T << Foreign PZ = Korean T < Korean ZP
The only way to see this is the low amount of games played by T.
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EPT
