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Austria24422 Posts
True, if you lose your army once as protoss you lose the game. It's a damn hard game guys and it can be pretty damn unforgiving no matter what race you play.
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United Kingdom12070 Posts
On July 30 2013 22:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:
True, if you lose your army once as protoss you lose the game. It's a damn hard game guys and it can be pretty damn unforgiving no matter what race you play.
I don't think that's true. I think it mainly comes down to what situation you're in and how late the game is. If you have 20+ gateways in the later game and you lose an army at the enemy base and you can't rebuild then I have no idea what's wrong with it. I think it's more that all the money goes to reinforcing the front battle with warp ins rather than sitting back at home like the other races so not only have you lost one army, you've lost like 3 in one go.
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On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair.
No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish.
@Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago
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I just wish they'd redesign everything about protoss, its the most frustrating race to play, watch and play against. When playing zvp it honestly feels like if I don't get caught off guard by some wonky 2 base timing, and I don't sit in my base until hes maxed out on colossus voidray ht or some other insane army then I just don't lose.
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On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago
I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol.
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On July 30 2013 22:49 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 22:27 DarkLordOlli wrote:
True, if you lose your army once as protoss you lose the game. It's a damn hard game guys and it can be pretty damn unforgiving no matter what race you play. I don't think that's true. I think it mainly comes down to what situation you're in and how late the game is. If you have 20+ gateways in the later game and you lose an army at the enemy base and you can't rebuild then I have no idea what's wrong with it. I think it's more that all the money goes to reinforcing the front battle with warp ins rather than sitting back at home like the other races so not only have you lost one army, you've lost like 3 in one go.
The issue is that if you warp in everything at home, it's still gateway units. Gateway units that you can warp in for rapid defense (stalkers and zealots) are terrible. Protoss relies so heavily on their robo units and HTs, both of which take time to either make or get energy. You warp that stuff in the front line because if you lose that battle, it's game over. So you do everything you can (warping in on the front lines) to win that fight. Once the collosi are down, or your storms are used up, it's game over anyway.
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On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago
For as long as Terran builds rely on taking less gases and getting more minerals (more workers on minerals + mules) it doesn't matter what you trade. If Terran trades minerals for gas and the situation afterwards is even it is completely fine. The thing is, it is not fine to do so over and over again for a zerg, because a Terran gets 3-3 against 2-2 or 0-0 if we talk about drops vs statics/queens/buildings.
The suggestion hits one of the core issues you have to overcome in ZvT on the head. Though I don't think it should be adressed at this point. Getting an Infestation Pit+Hive alone isn't such a huge investment in either money nor time that it would stop you from getting out the upgrades in time.
+ Show Spoiler +Though I definitely think that blizzard is unhappy about zergs only getting infestation pit + hive for ultralisks and upgrades, at least as far as I interprete DKs comment on Vipers and how they wanted Vipers to work. As a core unit that you always want a few of in the lategame, but which doesn't scale up in big numbers. Basically the infestor 2.0, but this time without the damage potential but only as a support unit that can break the back of enemy (range) deathballs.
- don't interprete this part as what I want, but as what I think blizzards intentions were and are. Though I would immidiatly jump on board if blizzard decided to do the following:
-blinding cloud reduces range by 4-5 instead of fully (too strong against artillery units, especially tanks and statics)
-blinding cloud radius increased to something like 3 (too easy to dodge by mobile forces)
-abduct range nerfed to 8 (a tiny adjustment to buff anti-viper units; in endgame scenarios, vipers with support are in my opinion just the strongest unit on the field, as preventing pulls on crucial - or any units - is just too hard with only range 9 HTs and Vikings)
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On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol.
Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken
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On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken
ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber...
doesn't seem very "broken" to me.
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On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/main
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL
51-29 TvZ 63.8%
30-16 TvZ 65.2%
15-6 TvZ 71.4%
Seems very broken to me.
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On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me.
winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^
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On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me.
I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran.
If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults.
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On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^
Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again.
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^winrate for TvZ that is. Not for other matchups. And I misspelled designated as designed lol. Please fix that
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On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults.
how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol
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On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol
The percentage is higher because the sample size is small. 6-4 is 60% as well.
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On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol
To him it is. lol. "Zergs start the game with 2 drones? Sounds fair to me"
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On July 31 2013 00:22 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol To him it is. lol. "Zergs start the game with 2 drones? Sounds fair to me"
You are beyond stupid, sad to see. Enjoy your discussion
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On July 31 2013 00:22 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol To him it is. lol. "Zergs start the game with 2 drones? Sounds fair to me"
WCG KR is 10:6 which again is 63%.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2013/Qualifiers/Korea
all the above stats combined that means 106/163 = 65% winrate on the highest levels and 163 games is definetly enough to tell 65% is broken.
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On July 31 2013 00:23 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol To him it is. lol. "Zergs start the game with 2 drones? Sounds fair to me" You are beyond stupid, sad to see. Enjoy your discussion
If you're going to leave, goodbye. I've had enough with trying to debate balance over a biased Terran who brings up WCG but ignores other data. And then pulls out the 42-43 sample size and dismisses the 32-24 sample size (even with Flash / Innovation taken out) as "too small" when its hardly that different.
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EPT
