EPTIt would be even cooler in TvZ, making mass ravens bad. That, buff hydra a litlle, buff mech (don't care if it forces Mech in TvT, some maps does it already.) and let see how it'll do TvP and ZvP.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 618
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MTAC
103 Posts
It would be even cooler in TvZ, making mass ravens bad. That, buff hydra a litlle, buff mech (don't care if it forces Mech in TvT, some maps does it already.) and let see how it'll do TvP and ZvP. | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 30 2013 18:11 Rabiator wrote: Try a flat 50 or even 70 damage instead of the lousy "35 against anything non-armored". The core point to start is to look at the really TINY core radius of the splash attack and you will notice that it covers only 3-4 Zerglings. It shouldnt be possible to just charge a bunch of sieged tanks with Zerglings (and yet it does work), because there are a lot of other weapons in the Zerg arsenal and they should be a "requirement" to break such an entrenched position. What the hell is the point of Abduct or Blinding Cloud or Infested Terran (used as a decoy or a "shoot your own tanks device") otherwise? Zerg doesnt really need these things against mech / Siege Tanks and that is wrong! Siege Tanks are pretty much useless against Protoss because of that lousy damage output against non-light and the size / hp+shields of the Zealots, which is several times larger than that of a Zergling and possibly even has charge. To be able to work well against Zerg the Siege Tank should kill Zerglings in the primary AND secondary radius, thus I would say 70 damage (secondary radius is 50% damage) would be ok. The point is that you shouldnt have your Siege Tanks in one spot to protect against runbys ... since there isnt any static defense against ground (PF doesnt work to protect your production for example). Even though it is a large jump upwards I would say it is ok, because the Siege Tank still deals friendly fire and people could just learn to abuse that ... Apart from increasing the damage significantly I would only see a complete revamp of the general mechanics (unit selection limit, forced unit spreading, removal of unit production boosts, removal of economic boosts) to get to a "BW unit army size and density level" ... and that is really unlikely to be happening as long as DB and DK are at the helm of SC2 design and development. As long as those two are there any "improvements" to the tank wont be happening anyways since they rather hate static mech play as DK said in his interview with Apollo. Rabiator. I appreciate your effort to make mech more exciting/powerful/viable, but buffing tank dmg isn't a great solution where TvT is almost like a tank war  + Show Spoiler + Thank you ppl who kindly replied. I guess I should trust blizzard mor  | ||
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SsDrKosS
330 Posts
On July 30 2013 19:03 MTAC wrote: I really think the SH could use a tweak in an anti-air units. As a scourge launcher. Very weaks but powerfull. Could be uses to kill Medivacs in TvZ biomine, handle drops (with sick micro moment escaping the scourge and dropping some marines to kill them). It would be even cooler in TvZ, making mass ravens bad. That, buff hydra a litlle, buff mech (don't care if it forces Mech in TvT, some maps does it already.) and let see how it'll do TvP and ZvP. waht... you serious man... If you do that, all air units will be annihilated Free scourages?!? omg!I rather see zergling morph into scourage after spire up. (obviously the dmg has to be reduced )But good thought. Zergs lacks anti air quite a bit, but not up to the degree that zergs have no solution for biomine/drops Edit: and I don't think unit suggestions would be appropriate at this point. Hots has come out not long ago and LotV is faaaaaar away from release And I totally agree with "buff Hydra" xp | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
If you do that, all air units will be annihilated, Free scourges?!? omg! I don't think so, just have to make them with very few hp. It's just a number thing. And btw, too much SW will just DIE to any ground forces. It'll make anti-air Zerg better. And whatever if it's scourge or a close combat air unit (flyings locusts of the campaign are just fuck*** cool !). It'll completly REMOVE the SH turtling style who is just awfull. Make the infestor tech better in TvZ (although i'm not sure it is really needed). Bli² already has made theses kinds of big changes, when something is needed, not for a balanced matter, but for diversity (ZvZ spire vs infestor tech, or spire + infestor tech, TvZ SH drop-defense into hive rush) and bringing away what is an awful gameplay (PvZ SH) | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
Interesting about this is that many of the new/old heros have had their rise in the WOL Terran OP beginnings and later on when things got evened out more could not keep their accomplishments. As a matter of fact the game maru vs innovation shows clearly one thing: Innovation cannot deal with the mindset of being considered/being the superior player and is lacking the skill that e.g. flash has that is to play like a machine and benefiting from this position. Instead he is suffering from this position that has been proven for reality now again. Otherwise he would not go down 0:4 for sure. This also allows assumptions about why Soulkey was even able to come back from a 0:3 disadvantage and win a tournament against the clearly favoured innovation, that managed to get 3:0 ahead and then started to suffer from his mindset and getting a 0:4 lose streak in a row (which is quite unlikely to happen in a T favoured matchup from the best player in the world). What we are gonna see in the future is that terran macro beasts (like e.g. bomber) that have the mindset of just playing down one memorized bo/strategy with very little adaptions will come to success as the builds and strategies they play are by far more hard to counter then being executed especially in TvZ. And exactly this is the matter of balance! Not if flash or life wins a tournament, not if soulkey of innovation wins a tournament, because in both cases zergs could win the tournament because of big major mistakes/breakdowns of their opponents. To describe it more detailly: 1. Life was clearly superior to flash in that MLG finals, played at his best level and the best level of zerg the world has seen by then and hardly managed to win 4:3 while flash took some easy wins vs him with rallying marines+mines + dropping constantly in usual macro play and won due to superior race mechanics and the matter of fact that zergs hardly hold against these simple rally bio + mines macro pushes and one game even due to a single widow mine shot that killed 10+ banelings. 2. Innovation was clearly about to win vs soulkey in that said finals. When things turned around innovation was a captive of his mindset and soulkey must have been at a point where he had nothing to lose and played full risk until he had the mental advantage on his side. Both results tell very few about balance if you just take the numbers into consideration. If you look more closely into it and watch HOW it happened you can take conclusions about balance. This also moves the so much liked win/lose % of the matchup in high tier tournaments/leagues more towards terran favour. As a result of this life should have won vs flash 4:1 legitimately and innovation should have won 4:0/4:1 vs soulkey. To connect it to recent happennings and round it up innovation even when having a bad day should have lost 2:4/3:4 vs maru not like this. I of course still consider other things to be in bad shape for balance in HOTS such as swarm hosts, maybe vipers, also dont like oracles and some other stuff. Besides this there is only the one major thing that I consider not balanced which is the MSC. But it will for sure get nerfed soon as it is clearly visible for everyone that this unit is way OP and allows to good, effective and easy all-ins for protoss. I think especially the bubble needs to get a reduction in radius, so that not a whole clumped T/Z bio ball gets affected by it at the same time in combination with the problematic forcefield mechanic that is undoubtedly needed for protoss to be able to compete at all. Still the biggest balance problem in the game is the Terran easy win mechanic: - standard macro build, build medivac, drop 8 marines, win the game (seen in bomber vs first) - standard macro game, push with bio+mine, get a lucky mine shot and win the game - standard macro game, pull SCVs at one point of time attack and win the game - standard macro game TvZ, get a head a little and win the game as comeback is almost impossible vs new/old terran mechanics that make them almost unattackable and let them expand easily: PF, Bunker, Mines, Turrets = safe and not cost efficiently attackable. these are every game issues and if you watch tournament bo3/bo5/bo5 you almost see in every series at least one game that is won by terran this way "wtf this toss lost due to this 8 marine drop", "wtf this zerg lost all his units to lucky mine shots, there is nothing he can do to come back" And before you argue banelings is the same. No it is not. Cause banelings are quite expensive. If you get a good engagement with banelings on terran bio you are at max at a bit better position than before. But with maurauders and mines in the mix and a little marine and a little medivac load in + fly away micro this is so unlikely to happen anymore so that banelings I would say in most cases are cost ineffective vs bio + mines that include maurauders. In the current metagame anyway Z needs to win every engagement vs terran almost perfectly not to instantly lose the game or fall way behind (=lose the game) and if they do so, terran is in no way much behind its more like part of the metagame that zeg cleares with ling/bane/muta all the terran attack not to lose instantly. Other way round, if a few mines kill the major parts of the zerg army (such as some baneligns that are needed to fend of the terran attack, or some mutalisks to clear up drops) the terran has had almost no expenses on this and therefore instantly wins the game. | ||
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
In the current metagame anyway Z needs to win every engagement vs terran almost perfectly not to instantly lose the game or fall way behind I feel exactly the opposite. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote: I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can. I strongly disagree with this. Yes, Innovation and Flash are the best player with Bio mines right now, but not by much, and a lot of terran in Korea are catching up to their level. Plus, the solution against this kind of play are yet to be found (if this solution actually exist) so the situation in the match up will only get worse as terran keeps getting better with it, plus there is still room for improvement in terms of micro with burow/unburrow and switching target. It's not lying to say that Proleague, OSL or GSTL, even if this must be looked carefuly because of the low number of game, have been strongly dominated by terran (60% to 70% in term of winrate), and it' not lying to say that a large portion of Zerg wins in this tournament has come from different variation of roach and/or baneling all in. It's not a coincidence that top macro zerg player like Roro or DRG are struggling right now, Symbol has been successful by switching full all in mode. If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran. These terran below highest level play against zerg below highest level, how is this relevant for balance discussion? Nevertheless, I've saw Sjow winning against Life with it, and there is some other example, like Jaedong losing to Theognis. Even the fact that Polt won MLG is questionable, I mean he is/was a genius player that's for sure, but right now he is a full time student, to go win a major tournament without any team to train and not a lot of time of practice is kind of weird. Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient. [/QUOTE] Common, it's like saying to Terran WoL when the race was weaker than Zerg in WoL, "oh it's simple against fungal, just alway pre split all your units, hit perfect timing and never get caught unsieged and you'll win! MVP/Taejea/Bogus (depending on the period) can and win with it so you have no excuse so stop complaining!' . Like fungal growth, a mine hit punish hardcore any kind of tiny mistakes you can do and win the game from this, while the other way around is rarely true. Granted, the impact of Widow mine is obviously different from the Infestor mostly due to the friendly fire, but on the other hand it's an invisible unit, a lot cheaper and requires less tech, that one shot all the core unit over a large area (ling/baneling) while friendly fire doesn't one shot marine and is limited by the medivacs healing. Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage. Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. I'm not saying that the match up is way too much broken or anything else, but that the widow mine is and that all the outcome of the match up revolve around one widow mine hit and this is bad design to me. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
well what happens if zergs don't clear up a terran attack? Marines focus down zerg expansions and z reinforcements within seconds, no time to morph enaugh banelings to fear the terran away, an additional drop in the main + reinforcements that keep containing the zerg and allow terran to pull ahead in expansions = no come back possible anymore(if zerg plays defensively) or instant win (if zerg plays offensively and tries to counter attack he dies to drops or push then) If zerg clears a terran attack, 50-80% of marines are loaded into shuttles and fly back home. Mines+maurauder+ some left marines clear enaugh ling/bane to even out losses on both sides. Terran falls back on more mines, bunkers, maybe a PF and has a medivac drop in place to keep zerg in base anyway and all this is no way equal to the situation that zerg is in once doing a bad engagement on a terran push. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
From your points of view, there can never be a player superior to one another, but always players equal in skill. I dare to say during the infestor/broodlord time, Terrans superior to Zergs couldn't manage to win, because it was near impossible and you would need either a flawless game in your favor or very bad mistakes by Zerg. While what we see now is Flash and INnoVation ruling supreme over proleague. Do they do so, because they are simply superior to their opponents or because Terran is imbalanced? If so - why do other Terrans not prevail in the same manner? Why don't Terrans rise in e very scene? Its because its not a break of balance per se. Its those two making others look bad. INnoVation and Flash (Flash even moreso in macro) have unbelievable mechanics, if not the best ever seen and biomine is a style that highly rewards that. In general Terran is the race that (in my opinion) rewards mechanics the most - already due to the fact that all their units are ranged and thus need / can be microd. If you take out the very best players from each race, you will suddenly not see a 60-70% winrate for Terran, but a very close to 50% winrate. TvZ 47–46 (51%) from WCG Korea qualifiers recently. As you can see, even at the top level (below the very best players) it seems to be a very balanced match up. Obviously the sample size is small, but the additional 10-15% comes from two outstanding Terrans. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 30 2013 20:48 LSN wrote: well what happens if zergs don't clear up a terran attack? Marines focus down zerg expansions and z reinforcements within seconds, no time to morph enaugh banelings to fear the terran away, an additional drop in the main + reinforcements that keep containing the zerg and allow terran to pull ahead in expansions = no come back possible anymore(if zerg plays defensively) or instant win (if zerg plays offensively and tries to counter attack he dies to drops or push then) If zerg clears a terran attack, 50-80% of marines are loaded into shuttles and fly back home. Mines+maurauder+ some left marines clear enaugh ling/bane to even out losses on both sides. Terran falls back on more mines, bunkers, maybe a PF and has a medivac drop in place to keep zerg in base anyway and all this is no way equal to the situation that zerg is in once doing a bad engagement on a terran push. If you lose a bad engagement vs Zerg, often times its lights out for the Terran as well. There are certain styles for Zerg, especially Hyuns style that can power through a Terran army + mines right into the main, even if it was a maxed engagement. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
This what is happening now is not even fun to watch, recognizing bio tier 1 units s the only thing to do in a 30 minutes game for terran and of course it has effect on the balance. If this not resolved and balance is build around this the matchup will stay broken and starcraft will lose alot of interest and popularity. Just imagine and compare to broodwar TvZ with a terran just building marines, firebats and dropships in every game to win. This shows the degree of how much TvZ is broken in fact (what is not necessarily about balance, but for sure has effects on balance). | ||
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Dwayn
Germany949 Posts
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote: A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. that might solve certain things but not solve the source of the problem. The source of the problem is that the rock scissor paper system does not work well. If zerg could force terran with anything into mech, and then mech force the zerg again into something else etc. this would solve the problem of watching marine+mine rallying perma macro attacks over the course of the game. It would instead allow intelligent players with good gamesense to flower out besides simple memorized macro builds that let one game appear like the other in TvZ. Suddenly the player wins that adapts better to the opponents playstyle, not who has been more lucky in dealing splash damage and does simple low master tier macro and we have a whole better game! Suddenly a simple micro mistake, that of course can cause heavy damage on both sides, does not decide the whole game but instead we see more games that are decided by intelligent play! I think even genuine biased terran players that still suffer from op infestors, need to admit this. Don't they? ;D | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 30 2013 20:58 NarutO wrote: If you lose a bad engagement vs Zerg, often times its lights out for the Terran as well. There are certain styles for Zerg, especially Hyuns style that can power through a Terran army + mines right into the main, even if it was a maxed engagement. Don't bother. Guy is a complete troll or an idiot. Basing Terran balance off mirror matchup. Claims 8 marines and a medivac can win you a game; doesn't realize that First was playing super greedy. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
On July 30 2013 21:16 plogamer wrote: Don't bother. Guy is a complete troll or an idiot. Basing Terran balance off mirror matchup. Claims 8 marines and a medivac can win you a game; doesn't realize that First was playing super greedy. 8 marines + drop won game bomber vs fist. You are a complete idiot yourself when you say I base balance on mirror matchups. I based innovation mental analysis on current mirror maru vs innovation. This allows assumptions why he has not been able to "complete" soulkey before which all terrans refer on when talking about matchup balance ("zerg wins so many tournaments"). But I guess this is too high to understand for a simle minded dude. Besides this everything has been clearly stated, I can't see why and how you misinterprete me for any other reason than being touched by my arguments and have not enaugh substance to reply me in any other way. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
One thing I'd like to hear some opinions on: what do people think of phoenix/colossus for PvT? Is it viable at the highest level? I personally have never believed in it but Jim rode it to rank 1 GM in korea so it can't be that bad. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On July 30 2013 20:57 NarutO wrote: Remove INnoVation and Flash from the TvZ statistic and you will suddenly have a more even game. You cannot base balance on superior players. If your argumentation leads others to believe the match up is imbalanced because two players are outstanding in it, its void. From your points of view, there can never be a player superior to one another, but always players equal in skill. I dare to say during the infestor/broodlord time, Terrans superior to Zergs couldn't manage to win, because it was near impossible and you would need either a flawless game in your favor or very bad mistakes by Zerg. While what we see now is Flash and INnoVation ruling supreme over proleague. Do they do so, because they are simply superior to their opponents or because Terran is imbalanced? If so - why do other Terrans not prevail in the same manner? Why don't Terrans rise in e very scene? Its because its not a break of balance per se. Its those two making others look bad. INnoVation and Flash (Flash even moreso in macro) have unbelievable mechanics, if not the best ever seen and biomine is a style that highly rewards that. In general Terran is the race that (in my opinion) rewards mechanics the most - already due to the fact that all their units are ranged and thus need / can be microd. If you take out the very best players from each race, you will suddenly not see a 60-70% winrate for Terran, but a very close to 50% winrate. TvZ 47–46 (51%) from WCG Korea qualifiers recently. As you can see, even at the top level (below the very best players) it seems to be a very balanced match up. Obviously the sample size is small, but the additional 10-15% comes from two outstanding Terrans. Well for example, GSTL is by nature a Innovation/Flash-free statistics and it has been a 65 % Winrate. I haven't followed the challenger league except from a few game from Life or Roro, but as I said, most of the succesful build I saw from zerg were some baneling/roach all in. Nevertheless, what is the point to remove the best player from the statistics? No one expect that a match up is balance only if the best player have a 50% winrate in this match up, but if there is no solution, no matter how perfect the zerg play and SK has been relatively close to achieve it, against a bio mine play type of play it means it's imbalanced. But it doesn't necessarily means mines has to be nerf hammer but maybe some thing like maps has to be changed and not allow easy third base, reduce the amount of choke or these kind of change. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On July 30 2013 21:24 DarkLordOlli wrote: I for one am very touched here One thing I'd like to hear some opinions on: what do people think of phoenix/colossus for PvT? Is it viable at the highest level? I personally have never believed in it but Jim rode it to rank 1 GM in korea so it can't be that bad. It's the most annoying shit I've ever played against, both as zerg and terran. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On July 30 2013 20:57 NarutO wrote: Remove INnoVation and Flash from the TvZ statistic and you will suddenly have a more even game. You cannot base balance on superior players. If your argumentation leads others to believe the match up is imbalanced because two players are outstanding in it, its void. From your points of view, there can never be a player superior to one another, but always players equal in skill. I dare to say during the infestor/broodlord time, Terrans superior to Zergs couldn't manage to win, because it was near impossible and you would need either a flawless game in your favor or very bad mistakes by Zerg. While what we see now is Flash and INnoVation ruling supreme over proleague. Do they do so, because they are simply superior to their opponents or because Terran is imbalanced? If so - why do other Terrans not prevail in the same manner? Why don't Terrans rise in e very scene? Its because its not a break of balance per se. Its those two making others look bad. INnoVation and Flash (Flash even moreso in macro) have unbelievable mechanics, if not the best ever seen and biomine is a style that highly rewards that. In general Terran is the race that (in my opinion) rewards mechanics the most - already due to the fact that all their units are ranged and thus need / can be microd. If you take out the very best players from each race, you will suddenly not see a 60-70% winrate for Terran, but a very close to 50% winrate. TvZ 47–46 (51%) from WCG Korea qualifiers recently. As you can see, even at the top level (below the very best players) it seems to be a very balanced match up. Obviously the sample size is small, but the additional 10-15% comes from two outstanding Terrans. Innovation and Flash played in that qualifier, Flash lost to P in the first round and Innovation innovated 4-1 over 2 zergs. It was pretty close also with those players in the tournament. | ||
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
well what happens if zergs don't clear up a terran attack? This is stupid. It doesn't NOT belong to any race. If you don't clear up an attack, of any race, then you're screwed yeah. That's what SCII is. It has nothing to do with TvZ in particular. | ||
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