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On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults.
Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD)
-just pointing this out
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On July 31 2013 00:24 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:22 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:20 bo1b wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. how is 32-24 reasonable? Thats 62% lol To him it is. lol. "Zergs start the game with 2 drones? Sounds fair to me" WCG KR is 10:6 which again is 63%. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2013/Qualifiers/Koreaall the above stats combined that means 106/163 = 65% winrate on the highest levels and 163 games is definetly enough to tell 65% is broken.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
Good read
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I guess at this point we can only wait for the overall results, though I'm pretty certain zerg won't be doing too hot. That said I don't think they will be doing as badly as the numbers suggest.
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On July 31 2013 00:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD) -just pointing this out
Are you really comparing hitman here when talking about Flash / INnoVation? :x Read what I linked above
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On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again.
Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD?
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Northern Ireland27280 Posts
On July 31 2013 00:28 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again. Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD?
?
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On July 31 2013 00:29 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:28 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again. Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD? ?
Apparently not agreeing with the predictions invalidates the recorded results.
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On July 31 2013 00:28 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again. Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD?
You pick a tournament and I'll see if I'll agree to it. We can use whatever you prefer.
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On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me.
For July (T-Z)
WCS Korea(Premier, challanger, qualifier ) 22-22
IEM shanghai qualifier 29–34
WCG qualifier 49-46
Proleague 8-3
GSTL: 9:2
Total 117-107 - 52,2%
Seems slighty Terran favoured to me.
Also whats te point using winrates from before last patch (unless you are saying that hellbats do not have effect on the matchup.)
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On July 31 2013 00:32 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:29 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 31 2013 00:28 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish.
@Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again. Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD? ? Apparently not agreeing with the predictions invalidates the recorded results.
Recording showmatches, master league players, and the most random things you could think of is not something I want taking part in a winrate graph.
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On July 31 2013 00:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD) -just pointing this out
Wow he didn't even remove the losses and just removed the wins? LOL wow...I'm speechless. This is a new low... corrupting the data to support his views.
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On July 31 2013 00:35 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:32 bo1b wrote:On July 31 2013 00:29 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 31 2013 00:28 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:16 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:09 Rhaegal wrote:winrates come on in a couple days. They will be 50% just like last month ^^ Okay, want to make a bet? If they are 50%, I will volunteer to be banned. If they aren't 50%, you never make another post in the designed balance thread ever again. Will you be using shitty aligulac or TLPD? ? Apparently not agreeing with the predictions invalidates the recorded results. Recording showmatches, master league players, and the most random things you could think of is not something I want taking part in a winrate graph.
There is no other source unless you wanna collect data yourself.
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On July 31 2013 00:35 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:26 Big J wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD) -just pointing this out Wow he didn't even remove the losses and just removed the wins? LOL wow...I'm speechless. This is a new low... corrupting the data to support his views.
I did the same for SoulKey -_-
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On July 31 2013 00:27 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:26 Big J wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD) -just pointing this out Are you really comparing hitman here when talking about Flash / INnoVation? :x Read what I linked above
no I'm not, but the statistical method you are using is applied to make a statistic more robust against outliers.
And you apply it by cutting down the same amount of top (the best x=2 Terrans) and bottom (x=2 Zergs) outliers.
You could use a different method where you set x as number of games won and then cut out everyone top/bottom with games won greater than x. Which in case you want to cut soulkey means x=6, but then you'd have to cut Fantasy as well as he has also 6 TvZ wins.
Basically, cutting Flash/Soulkey/Innovation alone is arbitrary. Though that wasn't even my point originally. My point was that you also have to cut losses. The hitman comment was just to invoke a real statistical methode.
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On July 31 2013 00:41 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:35 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:26 Big J wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Well, that's not quite true. If you remove Flash/Innovation games, you also have to remove their losses which would make it 32-24. If you remove both of them and soulkey it's 31-20. If you remove the top2 terrans Flash/Innovation and the top2 zergs Soulkey/hitman it's 31-16. (at least according to the linked TLPD) -just pointing this out Wow he didn't even remove the losses and just removed the wins? LOL wow...I'm speechless. This is a new low... corrupting the data to support his views. I did the same for SoulKey -_-
If you remove the wins from 2 good TvZ players and only remove the wins from 1 good ZvT player, of course the data is going to skew toward your favor. You have to do 1 good TvZ player and 1 good ZvT player. You can do 2 and 1 if you remove both their wins and losses which turns out to be 31-16...still shows how broken TvZ is.
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On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them...
That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers.
Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch.
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On July 31 2013 00:47 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them... That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers. Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch.
I don't even know why you're still arguing, honestly. David Kim said Zerg has the highest winrate on ladder and he doesn't think TvZ is a problem...
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On July 31 2013 00:49 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:47 Aiobhill wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them... That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers. Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch. I don't even know why you're still arguing, honestly. David Kim said Zerg has the highest winrate on ladder and he doesn't think TvZ is a problem...
On ladder. I don't know how many times you keep saying this even though we've repeatedly TOLD you that ladder is from bronze to GM. Wow you're doing this on purpose
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On July 31 2013 00:51 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:49 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:47 Aiobhill wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them... That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers. Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch. I don't even know why you're still arguing, honestly. David Kim said Zerg has the highest winrate on ladder and he doesn't think TvZ is a problem... On ladder. I don't know how many times you keep saying this even though we've repeatedly TOLD you that ladder is from bronze to GM. Wow you're doing this on purpose
So you want to buff a race that's doing the best on ladder. That makes sense to you?
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On July 31 2013 00:53 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:51 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 00:49 Rhaegal wrote:On July 31 2013 00:47 Aiobhill wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish.
@Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them... That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers. Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch. I don't even know why you're still arguing, honestly. David Kim said Zerg has the highest winrate on ladder and he doesn't think TvZ is a problem... On ladder. I don't know how many times you keep saying this even though we've repeatedly TOLD you that ladder is from bronze to GM. Wow you're doing this on purpose So you want to buff a race that's doing the best on ladder. That makes sense to you?
You only balance based on top progamer data and tournaments, not based on which race of silver players are dominating.
That's like saying "silver level Zergs have a hard time injecting larva and spreading creep so lets change the Zerg race so that both is done automatically"
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EPT
