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On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense?
Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you.
I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas.
I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post.
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On July 31 2013 04:33 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you. I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas. I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post.
Oh great, the TIER argument again, lol. Nobody told you that you had to go ling muta bane, so why do you keep doing it if it doesnt work? Blizzard doesnt have to balance a game around YOUR preferred strategy - thank god.
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On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3.
Do you play starcraft 2 or watch any pro games? Nerf Marines and buff Thors, buff FG, unstoppable mid game timing...surely a troll.
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On July 31 2013 04:38 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:33 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you. I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas. I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post. Oh great, the TIER argument again, lol. Nobody told you that you had to go ling muta bane, so why do you keep doing it if it doesnt work? Blizzard doesnt have to balance a game around YOUR preferred strategy - thank god.
Then please point me out to a Zerg unit that can overcome Terran bio army that doesn't cost gas. Pure zerglings? That's not gonna work. Hydras? They cost gas AND they're bad vs Terran.
You are right, no one is forcing the Zerg players to go ling muta bane, but currently, what mid-game options do Zerg have vs. bio? Swarm hosts are terrible vs bio.
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On July 31 2013 04:45 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 04:38 stratmatt wrote:On July 31 2013 04:33 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you. I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas. I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post. Oh great, the TIER argument again, lol. Nobody told you that you had to go ling muta bane, so why do you keep doing it if it doesnt work? Blizzard doesnt have to balance a game around YOUR preferred strategy - thank god. Then please point me out to a Zerg unit that can overcome Terran bio army that doesn't cost gas. Pure zerglings? That's not gonna work. Hydras? They cost gas AND they're bad vs Terran. You are right, no one is forcing the Zerg players to go ling muta bane, but currently, what mid-game options do Zerg have vs. bio? Swarm hosts are terrible vs bio.
Different races are different..?
And it is not like terran bio doesn't need any gas either. Also, if terran is only building marines and you are losing to him, then you are doing something HORRIBLY wrong.
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On July 31 2013 04:33 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you. I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas. I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post.
Good thing Zerg will almost always have more gas income than Terran!
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On July 31 2013 04:33 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 03:17 TheDwf wrote:On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote:On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote:
Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? Despite your reputation for being super T- biased, I'll take the bait and answer you. I never said Terrans needed to have good micro for bio ball to be cost effective. They can have average micro and still come out ahead in equal trades because marines cost just minerals which mules&reactors easily replenishes. Zerg constantly lose banelings and mutas (which cost gas) and banelings, even when successful in their jobs, cost gas. Terrans only lose marines really. (maybe a few other units here and there but you get the gist) Constant engagements and trades give Terran too much advantage over Zerg who, already require more gas. I only said that Terran T1 be nerfed (justficably so) and T3 buffed to compensate. Because that T1 unit is causing a lot of balance problems. Why is that something so offensive to you? You seem super angry in your post.
Says the low level guy who's only here to constantly pour hatred upon the Terran race while having hilariously bad knowledge about TvZ and TvP? Average micro results in bad or even awful trades in TvZ; but since you're stuck in the "gas > minerals" mindset, which is painfully off topic when talking about bio TvX (ever thought that production time was a resource for instance?), you can blissfully keep fooling yourself thinking that losing X Marines to Y Banelings is always a super advantageous trade for Terran because minerals vs gas, blabla, while the real factor is that Terran cannot produce more than 12 Marines every 25 seconds vs Zerg can morph 15, 20, 30 Banelings in 20 seconds as long as he has gas. Zerg also has a minerals only unit in his composition which, surprise surprise, actually represents the majority of the units he has at his disposal (meet the  Zergling), and no, mutas don't die if Zerg isn't forced to fight a critical mass of Marines after all lings/banes are gone (which usually means Zerg has lost the fight badly). You may also try to explain me why Solar ended up with like 5k gas in his Whirlwind game vs Bogus (@ IEM Shangai Qualifier); surely something as precious couldn't have been banked to such an extent if it's so critical to fight the endless waves of 4M which are apparently "always efficient" even with "average micro"?
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I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V).
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On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults.
Removing arbitrarily some some player from the statistics , because you start as an assumption since the game is balance, their "abnormal" winrate is only due to the fact that they just are stronger, is pure nonsense. With that kind of thinking, I can also remove Life win in qualifier of the OSL, because well, my believe is that he is the best player of the world and Jijaki is miles away his level so it doesn't count as balance statistic, or I can also remove also the win stolen through cheesy play because my believe is to say that it isn't relevant of balance since they are basically flipping a coin... and so on. In the end, with that kind of thinking I can go up to 100% winrate for terran by removing all game won by zerg.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On July 31 2013 07:31 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Removing arbitrarily some some player from the statistics , because you start as an assumption since the game is balance, their "abnormal" winrate is only due to the fact that they just are stronger, is pure nonsense. With that kind of thinking, I can also remove Life win in qualifier of the OSL, because well, my believe is that he is the best player of the world and Jijaki is miles away his level so it doesn't count as balance statistic, or I can also remove also the win stolen through cheesy play because my believe is to say that it isn't relevant of balance since they are basically flipping a coin... and so on. In the end, with that kind of thinking I can go up to 100% winrate for terran by removing all game won by zerg.
People have been doing it since the game began. Was Fruitdealer's GSL win held up as a reason not to evaluate Zerg, given their overall performance at the time?
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design.
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On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V).
Snute won Red Bull Training Grounds 2 too. Like, Zergs are posting decent results. Just because some here just conveniently dismiss final results doesn't mean we have to accept it. Any Zerg that makes it to finals, gets there by beating a lot of players. If it was so damn imba, they wouldn't make it past all the imba races they have to face in non-final situations.
Look at WoL near the end. It was ZvZvZ finals, foreign zergs beatings Koeans consistently. Zergs were not just ahead in statistics, but also in tournament winnings, and the amount of foreign success against top Koreans.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Terran should be like Zerg was in WoL-end. Past is past. But right now, while Zergs here are over-emphasizing statistics, Zergs are still posting tournament results, and top-Korean Zergs are not being consistently threatened by non-Koreans.
Statistics do fluctuate. Without any big nerfs (hellbat nerf does not affect mmm-widow mines, except indirectly because it forced resources spent into defending hellbat drops), the TvZ win rate fluctuated from 55% to 52% in June (see aligulac's website).
And seriously, don't "what if it goes back up to 55%". Wait and see.
The way I see it, we need to look at the whole picture rather than tunnel-vision on what agrees with our views.
A combination of the following will give us a better picture:
a) statistics,
b) tournament results,
c) demonstration of gap in skill-level and mechanics (harder to gauge, but still important).
ps.
Please for God's sake. If you're going to advocate for nerfs, I think it also falls upon you to advocate moderate nerfs. For the good of the SC2 scene, and not just personal ego.
pps
I might have missed out on some things, I'm posting this in a bit of rush; have guests over. gl hf.
/edit
On July 31 2013 07:34 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 07:31 Vanadiel wrote:On July 31 2013 00:12 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 00:03 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:44 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 23:39 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 23:33 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 23:13 GhostOwl wrote:On July 30 2013 21:06 Dwayn wrote:
A big step towards balance in ZvT would be if zerg could get it's 3/3 on lair. No, this doesnt matter. The broken balance of TvZ comes from the cost efficiency and power of a well- microed bio ball with WM support. Equal engagements trades for T and Z hurts Zerg alot more cuz he loses gas while Terran only loses marines (easily replenished w mules and reactors) Medivacs get free escape button and WM are cheap to replenish. @Naruro, quit pulling out win rates that support ur view while conviently ignoring the 65%-70% T favored TvZ balance data posted few pages ago I pulled the winrates? Go look em up in WCG qualifier, lol. Pulling does not mean making them up. I guess you have no idea how the word is used..just like how you have no idea what you're talking about when you keep trying to deny TvZ is broken ZvT in WCG qualifier was 42-43 iirc, and just recently we have had Revial beat Polt and Life beat Bomber... doesn't seem very "broken" to me. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3724_2012-2013_SPL/mainhttp://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3655_2013_GSTL_S1http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/leagues/3975_2013_WCS_S2:_OSL51-29 TvZ 63.8% 30-16 TvZ 65.2% 15-6 TvZ 71.4% Seems very broken to me. I did quote the WCG qualifier which you completely dismiss? Also I mentioned Flash and INnoVation as outstanding in the matchup , brining 19 of those 51 wins to Terran. If you would remove them + Soulkey it would be 32-24 which is actually quiet reasonable even though in favor of Terran. If you keep SoulKey its 32-29. This is not about faking statistics, but making a point that those two are exceptionally good in the match up and thus make the balance look false. If you get back at sAviOr and call broodwar imbalanced, because in his prime he ruled supreme over Terran on even the worst Zerg maps... well, keep argueing then, but do it with another person because I prefer some sense in a discussion and no insults. Removing arbitrarily some some player from the statistics , because you start as an assumption since the game is balance, their "abnormal" winrate is only due to the fact that they just are stronger, is pure nonsense. With that kind of thinking, I can also remove Life win in qualifier of the OSL, because well, my believe is that he is the best player of the world and Jijaki is miles away his level so it doesn't count as balance statistic, or I can also remove also the win stolen through cheesy play because my believe is to say that it isn't relevant of balance since they are basically flipping a coin... and so on. In the end, with that kind of thinking I can go up to 100% winrate for terran by removing all game won by zerg. People have been doing it since the game began. Was Fruitdealer's GSL win held up as a reason not to evaluate Zerg, given their overall performance at the time?
And we all know where that took us - BL/infestor. Zerg was still being explored and looking back, it appears to me that Fruitdealer was just ahead of his time. Just looking at some his clips, his unit comps that seemed random actually remind me now of Stephano.
HotS is still being explored. It might not seem this way, but maybe with slight tweaks - like making vipers more accessible in TvZ, we might see really cool fungal + blinding cloud on bio; thus evening the odds for the lings/ blings since the ranged bio units are now effectively melee units.
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On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design.
They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash?
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On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash?
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit.
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Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit.
Thorzain's Thor builds being patched out are not analogous to TvZ in the current state. As a Protoss who, tbh sympathises more with Terran than Zerg, not a big fan of TvZ currently. I am just finding biomine pushes pretty boring, at that level they feel problematic to me. Obviously suggesting any kind of tweaks = I want Zergs to dominate.
Innovation and Flash are exceptional players, obvious point. I mean if TvZ is regarded as fine by the majority, maybe it is and should be left alone. Not what I'm hearing though.
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On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V).
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well.
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On July 31 2013 13:00 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. Thorzain's Thor builds being patched out are not analogous to TvZ in the current state. As a Protoss who, tbh sympathises more with Terran than Zerg, not a big fan of TvZ currently. I am just finding biomine pushes pretty boring, at that level they feel problematic to me. Obviously suggesting any kind of tweaks = I want Zergs to dominate. Innovation and Flash are exceptional players, obvious point. I mean if TvZ is regarded as fine by the majority, maybe it is and should be left alone. Not what I'm hearing though.
So according to you the frequent rebuttal and arguments by the below posters consitute the majority of Star Craft 2 player community... Dude really? Dude?
Big J, GhostOwl, LSN, GreenGringo, bo1b
Edit: more names.
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On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit.
What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well.
IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh
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On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines.
Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches.
This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good"
Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place!
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EPT
