EPTPS: Not saying that i´m not biased towards zerg.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 621
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
PS: Not saying that i´m not biased towards zerg. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27280 Posts
On July 31 2013 00:57 GhostOwl wrote: You only balance based on top progamer data and tournaments, not based on which race of silver players are dominating. That's like saying "silver level Zergs have a hard time injecting larva and spreading creep so lets change the Zerg race so that both is done automatically" I do recall a time that TvZ was 'fine' because the Korean statistics bore that out. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 31 2013 00:58 RaFox17 wrote: The amount of statistical skewing and blind refusal to accept anything that goes against your opinion in this thread is truly exceptional. If anyone who has really taken apart in this says that they have any objectivity in this matter is either dishonest or delusional. PS: Not saying that i´m not biased towards zerg. that's just bullshit. Some stats from some tournament or league is not "statistical" to begin with. There may or may not be a statistical imbalance in TvZ, but none of the statistics from the last page proves it, not would they from just one month of real advantage. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On July 31 2013 00:44 GhostOwl wrote: If you remove the wins from 2 good TvZ players and only remove the wins from 1 good ZvT player, of course the data is going to skew toward your favor. You have to do 1 good TvZ player and 1 good ZvT player. You can do 2 and 1 if you remove both their wins and losses which turns out to be 31-16...still shows how broken TvZ is. My whole point is that I believe there are two Terrans (above all others) that are outstanding, while there is only one Zerg in the match up who is outstanding right now. Did you not understand my point or do you simply choose to ignore it? | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On July 31 2013 01:05 Big J wrote: that's just bullshit. Some stats from some tournament or league is not "statistical" to begin with. There may or may not be a statistical imbalance in TvZ, but none of the statistics from the last page proves it, not would they from just one month of real advantage. I did not mean that the results are statistically valid, but every statistic brought up is dismissed by the other race while they present their own stats. My opinion is that terran is favoured at the moment and in month or two we will see if the stats will also show that. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 31 2013 01:14 Rhaegal wrote: It's a sad day when players like Innovation or Flash, yes fucking Flash, can't be appreciated because people can't go a day without balance whining... well, fucking flash hasn't done anything fucking amazing in SC2 yet. He has the exact same (high) winrate that like 8other guys have as well in PL. What is there to appreciate? I have seen many other people lose against Bomber, Innovation and Parting. I won't appreciate everyone of them because of "only losing to the best". | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote: Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. I get concerned every fucking time I play/watch a TvP, not gonna go running and crying to David Kim though. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On July 31 2013 00:47 Aiobhill wrote: That's cute. However if you work with statistics, you don't get to declare some data unadmissable without sound reasoning. That's lika guy from big tobacco saying "Look at how many old people die of Malaria and in car crashes" after defining cancer and heart attacks as outliers. Interestingly what would be sound reasoning to exclude some data is that many of those games were played before the Hellbat patch. So while it does look T favored atm, it would make a lot of sense to not hurry further changes now, but let it settle several more weeks to a) let players adapt and b) simply have more numbers to crunch. The same reason you remove Cristiano Ronaldo from your database as he significantly skewers his countryman's contribution to professional football (soccer to USA). Same reason Ferrari and Lamborghini cars are their own category. Their addition into any category of regular car of the same CC, seats, etc will skewer their statistics it will misrepresent the true average in, for example, fatal crashes per 100K persons for two door cars. You remove anamolies, and when a player of Flash's calibre is removed and affect a MU by as much as 10%, he deserves to be removed from the statistical database. Basically there has yet to be a player of that calibre in both Zerg or Protoss, that affect their MU by 10%. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On July 31 2013 01:57 painkilla wrote: Watching Flash vs Effort it looks like mule economy + marines (mineral only) + speed medivacs (never die) seems a bit of a concern. This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote: This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. Because fuck protoss! No seriously, that's a horrible idea. Infestors are still good. People are just bad with them because they're not using them much since HotS made them harder. Something you could do however is give a boost to ling heavy play. For example introduce an additional upgrade for lings that makes them attack biological units faster or something. That way lings could get in more damage against an army of mass MMM that's being healed while mutas can target down medivacs. The idea of muta/ling is similar to stalker/colossus. Colossi are supposed to deal with the ground army while being protected by zealots (ground) and stalkers (air). Ling/bling/muta is a lot of the same, you want to kill medivacs and units with mutas and retain them while lings and banelings take and deal damage from the MMM force. Thing is, once the terran does trade well and retains his medivacs then all of a sudden the MMM army doesn't die and your ground force doesn't provide enough buffer anymore because it doesn't kill enough. That's when terran eventually breaks through. Pretty much every Innovation vs Soulkey game from OSL was like that. Pretty much every Innovation game is like that actually. | ||
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kaluro
Netherlands760 Posts
On July 31 2013 03:11 DarkLordOlli wrote: Because fuck protoss! No seriously, that's a horrible idea. Infestors are still good. People are just bad with them because they're not using them much since HotS made them harder. Did you see Puck vs... Hyun last night? Puck had mass blink stlakers and would just blink back the stalkers at which he saw a fungal projectile being aimed at. 4 fungals later, still only 4 stalkers got hit or something. And he had ~40 stalkers. It was pretty ridiculous really, to see how ineffective fungal is against blink stalkers, even in the hands of a professional. Fungal used to hardcounter blink, right now it's the opposite. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote: This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. So Blizzard should weaken the very core of Terran's race because in your fairy tales Terran always have Automaton 2000 micro while constantly keeping minerals below 300 (something not even 5 Terrans in the world manage to do while keeping up with the engagements, but eh, let's forget about that) and, in compensation, acting high and mighty, you want to strengthen horrible units which are (almost) never used anyway along with bio? Can your suggestions make any less sense? | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On July 31 2013 03:16 kaluro wrote: Did you see Puck vs... Hyun last night? Puck had mass blink stlakers and would just blink back the stalkers at which he saw a fungal projectile being aimed at. 4 fungals later, still only 4 stalkers got hit or something. And he had ~40 stalkers. It was pretty ridiculous really, to see how ineffective fungal is against blink stalkers, even in the hands of a professional. And it was pretty ridiculous to see how it completely broke PvZ in WoL. An infestor/ultra/hydra army is scary as hell. The infestor just isn't the only unit you need anymore. If your opponent has mass blink stalkers then maybe infestors alone aren't smart. Maybe you want them to support your army. If you force stalker groups to blink back to dodge a fungal, that's still a win. Stalkers without blink melt to anything that moves. Also let's not forget that dodging fungal is a pretty damn cool micro interaction compared to "oh shit, I got fungaled because he clicked here, now all my things die." | ||
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sacade
166 Posts
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crazyweasel
607 Posts
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On July 31 2013 03:11 GhostOwl wrote: This is the root problem in TvZ at the moment. Terran army is currently too efficient for the damage it can deal out. Fungals needs to go back to being non projectile. Mass medivacs just laugh at chain fungals. Either stim or marines need to be nerfed in some way OR fungal need to cost less energy and go back to non projectile. Id rather have the first so we can tone down the unstoppable mid game timing pushes in TvP. And then maybe buff Thors in the process to make up for the lost firepower in late game TvP or other Terran T3. Are you trolling? Do you mind me asking what league you are in? I'm struggling to take this post seriously. | ||
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