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On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place!
Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio?
EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice.
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On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place!
I don't think you understand the strategy at all. to do your strategy, you are spending tonnes of gas and roaches scale extremely poorly against bio.
not to mention nowadays not a lot of terran do not go quick in base 3rd CC.
I have seen this works and seen it fails, but definitly fail more than success.
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On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh
Thor nerf - giving it energy.
Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not.
Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
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On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V).
In all honesty, only worthy terran in those events was bomber, who would've won if was a bit more careful and did some basic scouting for baneling busts.
EDIT: I can't deny that terran needs tremendous amounts of skills to compete on top. However it doesn't mean they are not op. Terran has too much potential when played well. So, in order to make the game balanced similar potential should be given to protoss and zerg (with same amount of required skills).
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On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice.
Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED!
I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will.
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So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example.
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Northern Ireland26632 Posts
'Live in your own little world'
This world presumably is different from the one you inhabit, where Zerg players pop into your natural and burrow micro their way to victory?
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On July 31 2013 14:37 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). In all honesty, only worthy terran in those events was bomber, who would've won if was a bit more careful and did some basic scouting for baneling busts. EDIT: I can't deny that terran needs tremendous amounts of skills to compete on top. However it doesn't mean they are not op. Terran has too much potential when played well. So, in order to make the game balanced similar potential should be given to protoss and zerg (with same amount of required skills).
Zerg does via SH and Viper, both reward strategic positioning and quick reflexes.
Problem? Zerg players don't like the "boring" swarm host and the "easily countered" vipers.
Protoss does have it's options via faster warp prisms and scouting via oracle (easy spotting via revelation and native high speed/acceleration) and MsC/Planetary nexus. They are certainly adopting them for better strategic decisions as seen in recent WCS using revelation to keep tabs on the bio force.
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On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy).
And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero.
These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others.
Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament
Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44
IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz
Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals.
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On July 31 2013 14:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
'Live in your own little world'
This world presumably is different from the one you inhabit, where Zerg players pop into your natural and burrow micro their way to victory?
You obviously don't understand the difference with a harass/pin and a push.
Much less how an ACTUAL IMBALANCED LADDER WILL LOOK!
Go away and cry into your tea at your imaginary pity party as Zerg take championships against the OP Terrans.
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On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals.
If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time.
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On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example.
Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult.
I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities.
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Northern Ireland26632 Posts
On July 31 2013 14:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
'Live in your own little world'
This world presumably is different from the one you inhabit, where Zerg players pop into your natural and burrow micro their way to victory? You obviously don't understand the difference with a harass/pin and a push. Much less how an ACTUAL IMBALANCED LADDER WILL LOOK! Go away and cry into your tea at your imaginary pity party as Zerg take championships against the OP Terrans.
Such a patently unnecessary amount of pissiness in your responses.
Anyway, back to the current thread tangent, it's pretty hard to really give a 'fair' evaluation as to the relative strength of tournament's players. I mean I would have HerO above many of the players just listed there as more 'notable' players, but it's hard to really qualify with objectivity.
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On July 31 2013 14:52 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:37 saddaromma wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). In all honesty, only worthy terran in those events was bomber, who would've won if was a bit more careful and did some basic scouting for baneling busts. EDIT: I can't deny that terran needs tremendous amounts of skills to compete on top. However it doesn't mean they are not op. Terran has too much potential when played well. So, in order to make the game balanced similar potential should be given to protoss and zerg (with same amount of required skills). Zerg does via SH and Viper, both reward strategic positioning and quick reflexes. Problem? Zerg players don't like the "boring" swarm host and the "easily countered" vipers. Protoss does have it's options via faster warp prisms and scouting via oracle (easy spotting via revelation and native high speed/acceleration) and MsC/Planetary nexus. They are certainly adopting them for better strategic decisions as seen in recent WCS using revelation to keep tabs on the bio force.
I don't usually like talking to you, coz I'm not sure if you are troll, terribly biased or in denial. You throw lots of random and shallow arguments. For instance, from the very getgo any decent SC2 spectator/player will understand that SH will NEVER work against terran. for many reasons: terran will just pickup all marine/marauders and kill all your hatcheries, while you can't kill a signle CC with SH. Swarm hosts are terribly slow, if ever head to head fight happens (god knows why terran would ever need to fight them directly) terran will just wait for swarmlings to die, then drop MMM on top of swarmhosts, scan and kill them all. I think even bronze league can understand that.
I hope this was last time I talk to you.
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On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time.
Erm, how is he in a slump?
vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose)
vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been)
vs P he is 7-3
Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump.
On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will.
If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech
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On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities.
Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc.
I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran.
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On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech
Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it.
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On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran.
I only saw roach/hydra working when timing has been hit perfectly. A.k.a 2-2 timing when terran only started mass production from 3CC. Other than that, roach/hydra suck at harassing and little skirmishes. They're also weak against upgraded bio and mech. Considering how flexible MMM is I don't think there is a much room to discover smth new about roach/hydra. The idea of burrow move was neat, but it will never work since the game has so many detections.
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On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran.
What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position?
On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it.
But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened?
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On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened?
Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud.
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