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On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2
Why isn't Life v Sjow there?
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On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
[quote]
IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
[quote]
IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make.
I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting.
On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
[quote]
IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
[quote]
IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there?
Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor
Life vs foreigners
Sjow: 1-2
qxc: 2-0
Morrow: 2-0
uThermal: 2-0
EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8
Life without flash/innovation: 29-11
|
On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:
[quote]
Thor nerf - giving it energy.
Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not.
Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:
[quote]
Thor nerf - giving it energy.
Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not.
Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:
[quote]
Thor nerf - giving it energy.
Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not.
Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:
[quote]
Thor nerf - giving it energy.
Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not.
Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments?
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0
So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT.
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On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy).
And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero.
These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others.
Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament
Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44
IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz
Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy).
And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero.
These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others.
Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament
Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44
IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz
Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy).
And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero.
These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others.
Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament
Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44
IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz
Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy).
And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero.
These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others.
Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament
Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44
IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz
Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT.
EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8
Life without flash/innovation: 29-11
I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis?
EDIT: The only basis that I can come up with is "oh, life lost to Sjow"... but that is hardly fair or proper. Losing 2 games out of 50 is ridiculous. He screws up 1 match and suddenly he is terrible at the matchup.
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On July 31 2013 18:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT. EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8 Life without flash/innovation: 29-11 I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis?
Actually watching Starcraft
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On July 31 2013 18:29 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT. EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8 Life without flash/innovation: 29-11 I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis? Actually watching Starcraft
So you have no basis? The only basis that I can come up with is "oh, life lost to Sjow"... but that is hardly fair or proper. Losing 2 games out of 50 is ridiculous. He screws up 1 match and suddenly he is terrible at the matchup.
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Why are people talking about "X is a better player than Y" again? That is useless, because
a) the game is still changing and whoever had a good tactic a month ago might have that tactic countered by new developments from the other players and
b) at the very very top level of skill the difference between the players is smaller than the impact of "daily form", so a player who is plagued by headaches (or whatever minor niggling injury you prefer) for a few weeks will not perform that well even though he is "theoretically better".
Deciding which player is the best can only be done after a very very long time (lets say a year) AND after the game has stopped being changed by Blizzard. Short term trends are kinda bad from a statistical point of view due to b) having a too large impact on the average performance of the players.
ALSO: This thread is about "game balance" and that doesnt include comparing the players.
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On July 31 2013 18:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT. EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8 Life without flash/innovation: 29-11 I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis?
I'll be fair about mine: Life's loss against Sjow, and following losses against Fantasy and Ryung, together with being dismantled by Innovation, while Soulkey went toe-to-toe with him in the finals. Losing so much in a short spell said that he was struggling. On the other hand, I've been very impressed with some strategies of Soulkey, and of course for him winning WCS Korea. Yet, he has also lost against Cure, Flash and Labyrinth recently. Also, the Innovation 3-0 (the games didn't look 3-0) says he's struggling, even if he's extremely good at the MU.
Also, Soulkey beat Life 2-0 in a TvZ which gives a hint that he might be the superior player, although I know Life's weakness is ZvZ.
So, I'd say it's fair enough to see why you're purporting Life as the best, but you can probably also see why we're pushing Soulkey. So how about we give it a month and check again.
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On July 31 2013 18:33 Rabiator wrote:
Why are people talking about "X is a better player than Y" again? That is useless, because
a) the game is still changing and whoever had a good tactic a month ago might have that tactic countered by new developments from the other players and
b) at the very very top level of skill the difference between the players is smaller than the impact of "daily form", so a player who is plagued by headaches (or whatever minor niggling injury you prefer) for a few weeks will not perform that well even though he is "theoretically better".
Deciding which player is the best can only be done after a very very long time (lets say a year) AND after the game has stopped being changed by Blizzard. Short term trends are kinda bad from a statistical point of view due to b) having a too large impact on the average performance of the players.
They do it 4fun?
And naruto is gonna write his basis soon, cant wait
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Austria24417 Posts
On July 31 2013 18:33 Rabiator wrote:
Why are people talking about "X is a better player than Y" again? That is useless, because
a) the game is still changing and whoever had a good tactic a month ago might have that tactic countered by new developments from the other players and
b) at the very very top level of skill the difference between the players is smaller than the impact of "daily form", so a player who is plagued by headaches (or whatever minor niggling injury you prefer) for a few weeks will not perform that well even though he is "theoretically better".
Deciding which player is the best can only be done after a very very long time (lets say a year) AND after the game has stopped being changed by Blizzard. Short term trends are kinda bad from a statistical point of view due to b) having a too large impact on the average performance of the players.
ALSO: This thread is about "game balance" and that doesnt include comparing the players.
Can't believe I actually get to say this but I agree with you completely.
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On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:
Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud.
Yeah, but you still need something to kill medivacs after you pulled them, which means you checkmate your mutalisks to stay close to your main army. At least that's why I stopped experimenting with vipers in muta/ling/bling styles, they are not worth it, while ultras/infestors are pretty good.
With roach/hydra, you can use the pulling much better, but then the blinding cloud is pretty bad (against bio, if he has tanks it's awesome) because when a Terran dodged it, you can't chase or you sit in your own clouds. And the gas is once again better spent on infestors or a melee+ultratransition, as MMM amoves over roach/hydra/viper pretty hard in the lategame.
I think the current TvZ just never reaches a phase were the game is slow enough to justify cutsie play like pulling over raw power like infestors, ultras, banelings, upgrades. And blinding cloud simply isn't worth 100/200/3 against bio.
On July 31 2013 18:34 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
[quote]
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT. EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8 Life without flash/innovation: 29-11 I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis? I'll be fair about mine: Life's loss against Sjow, and following losses against Fantasy and Ryung, together with being dismantled by Innovation, while Soulkey went toe-to-toe with him in the finals. Losing so much in a short spell said that he was struggling. On the other hand, I've been very impressed with some strategies of Soulkey, and of course for him winning WCS Korea. Yet, he has also lost against Cure, Flash and Labyrinth recently. Also, the Innovation 3-0 (the games didn't look 3-0) says he's struggling, even if he's extremely good at the MU. Also, Soulkey beat Life 2-0 in a TvZ which gives a hint that he might be the superior player, although I know Life's weakness is ZvZ. So, I'd say it's fair enough to see why you're purporting Life as the best, but you can probably also see why we're pushing Soulkey. So how about we give it a month and check again.
Well, hyvaa>Life>Bomber>Innovation/Flash>Soulkey. Pretty simple :D
+ Show Spoiler +
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Austria24417 Posts
Just to add to this, buffing blinding cloud or vipers in general could become a problem in PvZ. Vipers are already extremely strong against protoss, especially when combined with ultras and a few infestors. HerO vs Jaedong game 2 from IEM highlights it pretty well, HerO had full control of the game and slowed Jaedong down immensely while teching and building the perfect composition against it but he'd have needed another 2 or 3 minutes to be ready to deal with Jaedong's army. That's not to say that the unit composition is too strong or can't be countered etc. but I think making vipers' spells enter the field earlier by say decreasing cost or energy required could mean that zerg can get to that army too fast for protoss to react in time.
I do think more and improved Viper play would be really cool in ZvT though.
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On July 31 2013 18:35 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:33 Rabiator wrote:
Why are people talking about "X is a better player than Y" again? That is useless, because
a) the game is still changing and whoever had a good tactic a month ago might have that tactic countered by new developments from the other players and
b) at the very very top level of skill the difference between the players is smaller than the impact of "daily form", so a player who is plagued by headaches (or whatever minor niggling injury you prefer) for a few weeks will not perform that well even though he is "theoretically better".
Deciding which player is the best can only be done after a very very long time (lets say a year) AND after the game has stopped being changed by Blizzard. Short term trends are kinda bad from a statistical point of view due to b) having a too large impact on the average performance of the players. They do it 4fun? And naruto is gonna write his basis soon, cant wait
I won't even bother. If someone is a statistics guy, 66% winrate is always superior to 65% no matter the opponents, time played etc. So I won't bother explaining
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On July 31 2013 18:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:
Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud. Yeah, but you still need something to kill medivacs after you pulled them, which means you checkmate your mutalisks to stay close to your main army. At least that's why I stopped experimenting with vipers in muta/ling/bling styles, they are not worth it, while ultras/infestors are pretty good. With roach/hydra, you can use the pulling much better, but then the blinding cloud is pretty bad (against bio, if he has tanks it's awesome) because when a Terran dodged it, you can't chase or you sit in your own clouds. And the gas is once again better spent on infestors or a melee+ultratransition, as MMM amoves over roach/hydra/viper pretty hard in the lategame. I think the current TvZ just never reaches a phase were the game is slow enough to justify cutsie play like pulling over raw power like infestors, ultras, banelings, upgrades. And blinding cloud simply isn't worth 100/200/3 against bio. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:34 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:25 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:22 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 18:15 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me.
Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
[quote]
I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games.
And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have.
You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking.
Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it.
Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make. I disagree. I mean, 3 of soulkeys 5 wins vs innovation were in S1 finals where he roach/baned innovation when innovation was absurdly greedy without scouting. On July 31 2013 18:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:
[quote]
I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me.
Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
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I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games.
And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have.
You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking.
Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it.
Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2 Why isn't Life v Sjow there? Because I said korean terrans. Soulkey doesnt face foreigners ever so it isnt a proper comparison. As time goes on and life faces more foreigners it would skew results in his favor Life vs foreigners Sjow: 1-2 qxc: 2-0 Morrow: 2-0 uThermal: 2-0 So now we are talking about the series in detail? Life faced Flash when he wasn't as experienced and good as for now, what now?... We can do it forever, but as I said, your statistics don't proof he's superior in ZvT. EDIT: Soulkey without flash/innovation: 14-8 Life without flash/innovation: 29-11 I dont understand how you are saying that soulkey is so much more superior than life. What is your basis? I'll be fair about mine: Life's loss against Sjow, and following losses against Fantasy and Ryung, together with being dismantled by Innovation, while Soulkey went toe-to-toe with him in the finals. Losing so much in a short spell said that he was struggling. On the other hand, I've been very impressed with some strategies of Soulkey, and of course for him winning WCS Korea. Yet, he has also lost against Cure, Flash and Labyrinth recently. Also, the Innovation 3-0 (the games didn't look 3-0) says he's struggling, even if he's extremely good at the MU. Also, Soulkey beat Life 2-0 in a TvZ which gives a hint that he might be the superior player, although I know Life's weakness is ZvZ. So, I'd say it's fair enough to see why you're purporting Life as the best, but you can probably also see why we're pushing Soulkey. So how about we give it a month and check again. Well, hyvaa>Life>Bomber>Innovation/Flash>Soulkey. Pretty simple :D + Show Spoiler +
I only mentioned vipers as addition to roach/hydra in lategame.
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On July 31 2013 18:50 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 18:35 Foxxan wrote:On July 31 2013 18:33 Rabiator wrote:
Why are people talking about "X is a better player than Y" again? That is useless, because
a) the game is still changing and whoever had a good tactic a month ago might have that tactic countered by new developments from the other players and
b) at the very very top level of skill the difference between the players is smaller than the impact of "daily form", so a player who is plagued by headaches (or whatever minor niggling injury you prefer) for a few weeks will not perform that well even though he is "theoretically better".
Deciding which player is the best can only be done after a very very long time (lets say a year) AND after the game has stopped being changed by Blizzard. Short term trends are kinda bad from a statistical point of view due to b) having a too large impact on the average performance of the players. They do it 4fun? And naruto is gonna write his basis soon, cant wait I won't even bother. If someone is a statistics guy, 66% winrate is always superior to 65% no matter the opponents, time played etc. So I won't bother explaining
Way to dodge the bullet
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On July 31 2013 18:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Just to add to this, buffing blinding cloud or vipers in general could become a problem in PvZ. Vipers are already extremely strong against protoss, especially when combined with ultras and a few infestors. HerO vs Jaedong game 2 from IEM highlights it pretty well, HerO had full control of the game and slowed Jaedong down immensely while teching and building the perfect composition against it but he'd have needed another 2 or 3 minutes to be ready to deal with Jaedong's army. That's not to say that the unit composition is too strong or can't be countered etc. but I think making vipers' spells enter the field earlier by say decreasing cost or energy required could mean that zerg can get to that army too fast for protoss to react in time.
I do think more and improved Viper play would be really cool in ZvT though.
Not saying that the Viper is overpowered right now, but I could write essays about endgame ZvZs that I won because I used vipers and my opponent didn't (as much), or PvZ lategame, or ZvMech.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bAEjtF7.jpg)
Looking at its design:
- can't deal damage so only few of them are useful
- a singletarget spell
- a AoE spell
- comes at Hive without any specific techbuilding needed
- can regenerate energy quickly
I believe the intention was to give zerg a unit for all scenarios (like the WoL infestor) but which doesn't scale up (unlike the WoL infestor) and only works if used with nonviper units (unlike the WoL infestor). Thing is, the AoE ability isn't good against the units that are usually bad against AoE. (and abduct is very, very strong against hightech armies; counterable, but could turn out too strong at least against Protoss as 9range abduct vs 9range feedback favors the more mobile Viper)
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Last few pages of posts have totally derailed this brilliant thread. I normally use this thread to pass a bit of time and giggle at some of the more "interesting" suggestions, but now I am left feeling empty. So to repay those who have entertained me many a time.....
Roaches... currently have 2 attacks, melee and ranged. Reduce ranged attack damage and increase melee damage. Burrowed roaches get +1 or +2 armour. (gotta micro them roaches, get em in close then BOOM, slash the enemy to bits.) ........ reduced ranged damage means hydras are significantly better and therefore more likely to be used. Increased melee means roaches are better than current but require more control.
(attempt to spice up ZvZ which is currently far too RoachvRoach for my liking, added side affect of potentially making ZvX more interesting)
Stalkers... Change blink from a teleport to a stepping out of time for a moment. Can no longer blink up or down cliffs. After a blink, shields start to regen (maybe shields are also healed 10 points or something)
Currently blink micro doesnt give a high enough benefit to toss. Normally it takes 10 ingame seconds for shields to start to recharge so this change greatly increases the skill ceiling for stalkers.
k, food for thought and giggles.
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Austria24417 Posts
On July 31 2013 19:03 Rye. wrote:
Last few pages of posts have totally derailed this brilliant thread. I normally use this thread to pass a bit of time and giggle at some of the more "interesting" suggestions, but now I am left feeling empty. So to repay those who have entertained me many a time.....
Roaches... currently have 2 attacks, melee and ranged. Reduce ranged attack damage and increase melee damage. Burrowed roaches get +1 or +2 armour. (gotta micro them roaches, get em in close then BOOM, slash the enemy to bits.) ........ reduced ranged damage means hydras are significantly better and therefore more likely to be used. Increased melee means roaches are better than current but require more control.
(attempt to spice up ZvZ which is currently far too RoachvRoach for my liking, added side affect of potentially making ZvX more interesting)
Stalkers... Change blink from a teleport to a stepping out of time for a moment. Can no longer blink up or down cliffs. After a blink, shields start to regen (maybe shields are also healed 10 points or something)
Currently blink micro doesnt give a high enough benefit to toss. Normally it takes 10 ingame seconds for shields to start to recharge so this change greatly increases the skill ceiling for stalkers.
k, food for thought and giggles.
Disagree with close to everything.
1) Hydra DPS is not being questioned. It's their health/armor and the fact that they die so fast that's holding them back. Got nothing to do with roach damage.
Roaches with decreased range immediately become worthless in PvZ and 2 base colossus attacks become unstoppable. A good counter - if not the only one- to the current Magic Johnson (2/2/2, the 2 base 2 immortal 2 colossus all in) is mass roach. But without that range, say goodbye to holding that attack, ever.
2) How does immediate shield recharging give blink micro a higher skill ceiling? If anything that makes it easier.
Blinking up and down cliffs is cool and the only way for blink stalker heavy styles to work. Why? Because the threat of a blink in the main is used to keep the opponent defensive while building an army at home that can survive a straight up fight. If you take away that option then suddenly stalkers can't stall for time anymore and you will never see blink centered styles again.
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On July 31 2013 19:03 Rye. wrote:
Last few pages of posts have totally derailed this brilliant thread. I normally use this thread to pass a bit of time and giggle at some of the more "interesting" suggestions, but now I am left feeling empty. So to repay those who have entertained me many a time.....
Roaches... currently have 2 attacks, melee and ranged. Reduce ranged attack damage and increase melee damage. Burrowed roaches get +1 or +2 armour. (gotta micro them roaches, get em in close then BOOM, slash the enemy to bits.) ........ reduced ranged damage means hydras are significantly better and therefore more likely to be used. Increased melee means roaches are better than current but require more control.
(attempt to spice up ZvZ which is currently far too RoachvRoach for my liking, added side affect of potentially making ZvX more interesting)
Stalkers... Change blink from a teleport to a stepping out of time for a moment. Can no longer blink up or down cliffs. After a blink, shields start to regen (maybe shields are also healed 10 points or something)
Currently blink micro doesnt give a high enough benefit to toss. Normally it takes 10 ingame seconds for shields to start to recharge so this change greatly increases the skill ceiling for stalkers.
k, food for thought and giggles.
The roach change is nice and i could actually see this work ingame right now
Burrow buff is always a welcome to, so great additon
The blink change is cool, i cant see it in game now however because of cant blink up and down cliffs, but if we look past that thing i liked this to
Dont have much to add tho
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On July 31 2013 19:13 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 19:03 Rye. wrote:
Last few pages of posts have totally derailed this brilliant thread. I normally use this thread to pass a bit of time and giggle at some of the more "interesting" suggestions, but now I am left feeling empty. So to repay those who have entertained me many a time.....
Roaches... currently have 2 attacks, melee and ranged. Reduce ranged attack damage and increase melee damage. Burrowed roaches get +1 or +2 armour. (gotta micro them roaches, get em in close then BOOM, slash the enemy to bits.) ........ reduced ranged damage means hydras are significantly better and therefore more likely to be used. Increased melee means roaches are better than current but require more control.
(attempt to spice up ZvZ which is currently far too RoachvRoach for my liking, added side affect of potentially making ZvX more interesting)
Stalkers... Change blink from a teleport to a stepping out of time for a moment. Can no longer blink up or down cliffs. After a blink, shields start to regen (maybe shields are also healed 10 points or something)
Currently blink micro doesnt give a high enough benefit to toss. Normally it takes 10 ingame seconds for shields to start to recharge so this change greatly increases the skill ceiling for stalkers.
k, food for thought and giggles.
Disagree with close to everything. 1) Hydra DPS is not being questioned. It's their health/armor and the fact that they die so fast that's holding them back. Got nothing to do with roach damage. Roaches with decreased range immediately become worthless in PvZ and 2 base colossus attacks become unstoppable. A good counter - if not the only one- to the current Magic Johnson (2/2/2, the 2 base 2 immortal 2 colossus all in) is mass roach. But without that range, say goodbye to holding that attack, ever. 2) How does immediate shield recharging give blink micro a higher skill ceiling? If anything that makes it easier. Blinking up and down cliffs is cool and the only way for blink stalker heavy styles to work. Why? Because the threat of a blink in the main is used to keep the opponent defensive while building an army at home that can survive a straight up fight. If you take away that option then suddenly stalkers can't stall for time anymore and you will never see blink centered styles again.
With the roach burrow buff it might work
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EPT
