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On July 31 2013 20:22 NarutO wrote:
Diversity is not equal to balance. Only because Biomine is the best option to Terran, doesn't mean
a) its the only viable
b) its overpowered to begin with
Broodwar had:
Marine/Tank
SK Terran
Mech
all of them based around a few units.
Marine/Tank:
Marines, Medics , few if any Firebats, Tanks, Science Vessel and Dropships to drop
SK Terran:
Marines, Medivacs, Firebats, Science Vessel and Dropships
Mech:
Tanks, Vultures, Goliaths, Vessel
In Starcraft 2 its not less unit-heavy, it just seems to be.
Marine/Tank:
Marines, Medivacs, Tanks (later stages of the game there will be Thors added but the new mutalisk makes marine/tank very hard to play)
Biomine:
Marine/Marauder/Medivac/Mine
Mech:
Tank/Thor/Hellbat/Raven
There also is lategame transitions, but Ravens for example only make sense against heavy infestor compositions and/or broodlords, while they do not really make sense against Ultras in that manner. While I agree that the design is 'boring' and there are options that are viable but inferior out there, I disagree with this automatically being imbalanced.
I agree that TvZ is also for me one of the more interesting matchups to watch (poster above). I disagree that it could not be more interesting with more transitions and more viable playstyles.
I refer to my points 1) - 6) why TvZ exactly for this reason is broken. You could pick just any of it alone to argue its broken. All of them together for sure doesnt allow any other conclusions.
And its all a vicious circle. As terran bio/mine only is viable, terran is not limited by gas, as terran is not limited by gas it needs less SCV to saturate bases in longer games. As less SCVs are needed in longer games a potential successfull attack on a terran base does less damage, as the gas from this expansion (lategame/endgame) is not needed and mules can be dropped elsewhere. As gas is not a limiting factor in the TvZ game a) loss of gas costy units doesnt affect terran as much as it should in his decisionmaking, b) allows terran to upgrade always everything and c) to transition always everything (if ever needed, what it is usually not).
This whole mechanic is broken by itself. Noone can argue this, others are too. Of course this is not 100% balance relevant. But what you terran guys say, that it is 0% balance relevant, is obviously false. This is the exact reason that limits zerg harrassment on terran and make it highly cost unefficient all over the course. This is one of the reasons for zerg pure defensive style besides all-ins and terran pure offensive style.
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And its all a vicious circle. As terran bio/mine only is viable, terran is not limited by gas, as terran is not limited by gas it needs less SCV to saturate bases in longer games.
It isnt that you dont need as many SCVs, it is that you cant use as many SCVs as you want.
It is just complete BS that being mineral starved would be an advantage compared to having a balanced cost of your army. Not having to build as many geysers doesnt in any way compensate for mining out your bases quicker and requiring more bases for the same income. The same is true for being gas starved. Mineral starved has some advantages compared to gas starved, such as mules for terran, and you can oversaturate your base for bit more income.
But in the end it is balanced > mineral starved > gas starved in list of preferences.
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On July 31 2013 20:34 NarutO wrote:
Biomine can be beaten by muta/ling/bane as well as the other way around. It determines who played better.
are you seriously THAT biased?
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On July 31 2013 20:34 NarutO wrote:
I believe you are very low level and thus the points you make are jokingly bad. The HSM can be minimized or nullified in damage (if targetted a fast unit) because you know which unit is the target, you can split and micro. You can seperate the unit or use the unit to put damage on your opponent even (corruptor flying into Terrans vikings).
You cannot buff/nerf mech without making huge impact on Terran vs Terran. Your suggestion about rock, paper and scissors system is bad. It simply doesn't work like this and to be honest, it really didn't work like that in broodwar. Broodwar had base units that worked like this, but for example
Vulture>Zealot
Tank>Dragoon
Zealot+Dragoon could very well beat Vulture/Tank depending on how much you had and how you used it. There should be no unitmix 1 beats unitmix 2. Biomine can be beaten by muta/ling/bane as well as the other way around. It determines who played better.
lol, you are one of these biased terran guys that enjoy playing one of a kind unit mix in any game, having not much to think, any situation harrassment and normal combat and try to justify it.
Noone said it should be 100% rock scissor paper system, but as it is right now there is nothing else needed than bio/mine for anything zerg comes up with. You are the one trying to justify it. I gave example of broodwar TvZ, I don't see where dragoons/zealots come into play. In fact broodwar TvZ was by far more interesting than SC2 TvZ, and more versatile. Lurkers didnt 100% shut down marines due to the limited mobility. But they shut down a marine attack that could otherwise just roll over you and kill you (as bio+mine does now, what isnt shut down by baneling/zergling well enaugh).
Zerg doesnt win vs 10+ raven terran in endgame when both are in equal positions. You can split vs 1 missile, not vs a dozen at the same time.
Its a great idea to attack free of cost units that have been created by energy. To attack several PDD in a battle is as great as attacking infested terrans. Instead zerg is forced to retreat that gives terran free hits and free kills in the endgame battle.
I believe you are the low level player that is not knowing all this.
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naruto isn't low level.
but claiming that the effectiveness of muta ling bling vs bio mine is determined by the better player is kind of a ridiculous statement.
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On July 31 2013 21:04 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 20:34 NarutO wrote:
Biomine can be beaten by muta/ling/bane as well as the other way around. It determines who played better. are you seriously THAT biased?
In your own little world there is no such thing as a micro battle between two players? I don't understand how his comment is biased...
Unless of course you are just going to claim that Terran's micro is easier...
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On July 31 2013 21:07 willstertben wrote:
naruto isn't low level.
but claiming that the effectiveness of muta ling bling vs bio mine is determined by the better player is kind of a ridiculous statement.
It is generally true right now. At 3-3 things tip in favor of terran quite often because zerg is spending so much gas on blings/mutas that he cant afford to tech or he dies though. It is more unforgiving for the zerg though, the element of chance is too high imo.
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he is just trying to bullshit me.
he talks about obvious things like a changes in TvZ also have effect on other matchups. Real high level talk I guess.
He denies the fact that more of a rock scissors, paper system would solve alot of problems in the matchup.
That are:
Terrans no need gas
Terrans use one composition for everything
Terrans can barely be harrassed at all
Terrans can get all upgrades as fast as possible
Terrans can get all units as fast as possible, there is no limitation in gas
Terrans don't need any spellcasters to play TvZ
...
If he wasnt low level or extremely biased, he would at least admit some of these things instead of talking about dragoons and zealots and would have understand my suggestion about reducing bio potential and increasing mech potential in a rock scissors paper way as described. I already said this is not 100% relevant for balance. But what he tries to say, that it is 0% relevant for balance, it obviously wrong. Its simply a statement of a strongly biased terran player.
Also it is ridiculous that terrans don't even admit anything is wrong. I even said I dont like swarm host and viper vs mech mechanics too much. This being said is not enaugh, of course EVERYTHING is totally fine with the terran race and mechanics. Can only repeat myself.
You only see _strongly_ terran biased statements from naruto. He is not able to admin even hell obvious broken things.
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LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT?
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On July 31 2013 20:44 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 20:40 Qikz wrote:
I personally think that a good change would be to give the hydra a buff vs bio, either that or another major zerg unit that isn't zergling, baneling or muta. This then adds a better counter to bio (rather than just the single ling/bling/muta) and might force some new styles from the terran. Roach/Bane/Ling (Hyunstyle) would do well vs Bio. Melee+Range attack needed, so you need triple-evo, but Terran would need armory + two ebays as well (mine armor). Muta/Ling/Bane works vs Biomine and Roach/Hydra already is good in engagements vs biomine. I don't understand why EVERY style has to be completely viable and good. Mech isn't good vs everything, marine tank isn't good vs everything. Why does Zerg need plenty of options vs biomine when they have options against it?
More viable styles mean more varied gameplay and that is a good thing in itself. People are just a bit annoyed by Blizzards attitude which clearly states that they will keep mech less viable (or at most equally) compared to bio ... because they think the slow and methodical siege and advance gameplay is boring. Their opinion seems to be the one that counts and "an ego" (as in: "my opinion is more important than that of the customers") is a terrible thing to have as a game designer. Choice is always a good thing, but Blizzard is unwilling to provide it ...
Mech would never really be "good against everything", because any air styles completely abuse the immobility and units like Tempest or Viper do one thing anyways ...
/target Siege Tank
/finger
and thus I dont understand the reluctance of Blizzard to really make the Siege Tank worth using as the cornerstone of an army again. The only reason is their ego ...
But the problems of mech isnt solely the Siege Tank, but also the Thor ... which is ridiculously bad in its "primary function" (anti-air). The Thor deals roughly the same damage per shot as a Goliath from BW does with the High Impact payload and at 2 seconds per shot I would say the dps isnt that different. For a unit which costs that much I would expect a significantly higher amount of damage.
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On July 31 2013 21:22 LSN wrote:
he is just trying to bullshit me.
he talks about obvious things like a changes in TvZ also have effect on other matchups. Real high level talk I guess.
He denies the fact that more of a rock scissors, paper system would solve alot of problems in the matchup.
That are:
Terrans no need gas
Terrans use one composition for everything
Terrans can barely be harrassed at all
Terrans can get all upgrades as fast as possible
Terrans can get all units as fast as possible, there is no limitation in gas
Terrans don't need any spellcasters to play TvZ
You post is just completly filled with zerg bias.
Terrans is limited by gas. Bio-Mine with the essential upgrades cost a lot of gas especially if you want to add Ravens later.
Terrans have to switch to sky-terran in the lategame. It is very hard to fight Ultralisks/Infestor cost-effizient with Bio-Mine
Terrans can be harassed with great effect and it happens often enough
Terrans can't get all upgrades as fast as possible
Terrans also can't get all units as fast as possible
Terrans need Ravens for lategame TvZ
There is nothing wrong with making mech viable but pls not with such bullshit statements.
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On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT?
not LSN but here you go:
- nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs
- give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ
- give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again)
- buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway)
- make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored)
- buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech)
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@ RabidDeer
Changes are allowed to have effect on other matchups. This can be equalized, if making anything broken, with other changes.
What naruto says is on the other hand bullshit:
1. TvT is not the issue when talking about balance.
2. in TvT any party suffers/benefits equally from changes
3. Inter race balance is much more important than mirror matchup balance.
SC2 cannot focus balance on TvT while disregarding e.g. TvZ for this reason.
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On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech)
- nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss
- give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio
- give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change
- buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups
- make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ
- this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies
All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT.
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You are aware that the recent hellbat nerf was justified on account of the units effects in TvT?
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On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT.
- WM drops get defended better and better
- SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff)
- once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers
- i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing
- infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable
- viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier
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On July 31 2013 21:34 HerrHorst wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:22 LSN wrote:
he is just trying to bullshit me.
he talks about obvious things like a changes in TvZ also have effect on other matchups. Real high level talk I guess.
He denies the fact that more of a rock scissors, paper system would solve alot of problems in the matchup.
That are:
Terrans no need gas
Terrans use one composition for everything
Terrans can barely be harrassed at all
Terrans can get all upgrades as fast as possible
Terrans can get all units as fast as possible, there is no limitation in gas
Terrans don't need any spellcasters to play TvZ
You post is just completly filled with zerg bias. Terrans is limited by gas. Bio-Mine with the essential upgrades cost a lot of gas especially if you want to add Ravens later. Terrans have to switch to sky-terran in the lategame. It is very hard to fight Ultralisks/Infestor cost-effizient with Bio-Mine Terrans can be harassed with great effect and it happens often enough Terrans can't get all upgrades as fast as possible Terrans also can't get all units as fast as possible Terrans need Ravens for lategame TvZ There is nothing wrong with making mech viable but pls not with such bullshit statements.
friend of naruto/alternative account of naruto, first off: hello!
It is obvious that in any bio/mine TvZ terrans have banked about 2-5k gas before transitioning into anything (even more if they gathered gas from all geysirs they had). Just watch 100 TvZ games and you will see.
Terrans basically just need gas for the upgrades. Therefore it is no consideration if using gas for EITHER upgrades OR units but it is always getting all units they need (mins only basically) and every upgrade they need instantly (as gas has no other use than some medivics and upgrade/tech only).
If it was different, terran would have to delay upgrades a bit to make a certain strong timing attack or to get other things done what is obviousl not the case. This is actually what I am talking about and zergs complaining about. Terran does everything at once.
On July 31 2013 21:39 pmp10 wrote:
You are aware that the recent hellbat nerf was justified on account of the units effects in TvT?
the unit was way too strong in any matchup. Blizzard just doesnt dare to talk about imbalances openly not to do any mistakes and scare people of one race away. This is a good thing and a matter of the PR strategy, not about balance issues.
You don't want to believe that if hellbat was strongly needed in either TvP or TvZ as it was but was too strong in only TvT, blizzard would have nerfed it. Hellbat was simply an early game op unit. Guess this answers your question.
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On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier
My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT.
And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often.
If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because:
1) Hydras are cheaper on gas
2) Hydras come out more quickly
If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again
Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game.
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This is fun thread as always... I stick around, watch SC2, look at recent results...
Hyun wins Dreamhack
Revival wins IEM Shanghai (T and Z are now equal in Premier Tournaments hots wins at 5)
Life wins RSL V
Latest aligulac reports shows TvZ winrate at a pretty decent 52.4%. Things are all looking nice and shiny (for anyone that is not P at least)...
... still, somehow T is OP.
Okay, carry on 
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On July 31 2013 21:42 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:34 HerrHorst wrote:On July 31 2013 21:22 LSN wrote:
he is just trying to bullshit me.
he talks about obvious things like a changes in TvZ also have effect on other matchups. Real high level talk I guess.
He denies the fact that more of a rock scissors, paper system would solve alot of problems in the matchup.
That are:
Terrans no need gas
Terrans use one composition for everything
Terrans can barely be harrassed at all
Terrans can get all upgrades as fast as possible
Terrans can get all units as fast as possible, there is no limitation in gas
Terrans don't need any spellcasters to play TvZ
You post is just completly filled with zerg bias. Terrans is limited by gas. Bio-Mine with the essential upgrades cost a lot of gas especially if you want to add Ravens later. Terrans have to switch to sky-terran in the lategame. It is very hard to fight Ultralisks/Infestor cost-effizient with Bio-Mine Terrans can be harassed with great effect and it happens often enough Terrans can't get all upgrades as fast as possible Terrans also can't get all units as fast as possible Terrans need Ravens for lategame TvZ There is nothing wrong with making mech viable but pls not with such bullshit statements. friend of naruto/alternative account of naruto, first off: hello! It is obvious that in any bio/mine TvZ terrans have banked about 2-5k gas before transitioning into anything (even more if they gathered gas from all geysirs they had). Just watch 100 TvZ games and you will see. Terrans basically just need gas for the upgrades. Therefore it is no consideration if using gas for EITHER upgrades OR units but it is always getting all units they need (mins only basically) and every upgrade they need instantly (as gas has no other use than some medivics and upgrade/tech only). If it was different, terran would have to delay upgrades a bit to make a certain strong timing attack. This is actually what I am talking about.
I don't know Naruto besides from the TakeTV-Stream. But nice try to disregard my post with false accusations.
I watch and play plenty of terran games and I rarely see this situation. If you play Bio-Mine you use your gas for Medivas (very expensive), Marauders and Mines. If you drop constantly (and you have to do this) you will loose tons of medivacs and therefore need a lot of gas. [You will also loose a lot of Mines and Marauders] So no Terrans don't have unlimited amounts of gas which makes the other points obselete.
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EPT
