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On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game.
well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU.
muta techswitch isnt dealt with stalker anyway but with ranged phoenix + storms to buy time which arent affected by blinding cloud + cannons would be buffed vs blinding cloud if it lasts only 10-12 instead of 14 seconds.
its about trying new things that makes other comps than ling bane muta viable in TvZ and make bad comps like roach hydra or ling infestor better in ZvP with a buff to zerg harrassment that is basically not there without mutas since ovidrop, burrow movement and nydus are slightly UP since 4 years now.
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well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce.
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On July 31 2013 21:52 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game. well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU. muta techswitch isnt dealt with stalker anyway but with ranged phoenix + storms to buy time which arent affected by blinding cloud + cannons would be buffed vs blinding cloud if it lasts only 10-12 instead of 14 seconds.
You are clearly not understanding my point. LSN claimed he could make changes that dont effect any matchup other than ZvT. I called him out on it, and you posted some changes. All of your changes would have an impact on other matchups. Therefore, there are still no changes that back up LSN's claim that he could make changes that dont effect any matchup other than ZvT.
Coming up with a change that impacts only 1 matchup is hard. It is even more difficult when it is not a mirror match you are trying to change.
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On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce.
Did you notice that to transition into anything the T has to build a number of starports, addons and get upgrades? These things cost a good amount of minerals AND a good amount of gas and this is the limiting factor for the T.
Different races are different, T is the one that does not have a reliable gas dump in the midgame.
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On July 31 2013 21:52 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game. well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU.
What does it matter that it is a mirror? Unit balance is irrelevant because it is a mirror? Because the opponent can also make that unit? We can also all start playing the same race, then racial balance is also irrelevant.
I cannot see something more boring than a ZvZ metagame where swarmhosts are too strong. Both sides making as many swarmhosts as possible to let free units fight each other...
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On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce.
We obviously play a different MU then. TvZ is most of the time filled with a lot of agression from both sides and the Terran will therefore loose tons of Medivacs due to Mutas [which catch Medivas after their boost despite the zerg legend. In a passive game both sides will accumulate a lot of ressources but in this scenario the zerg can tech-switch way faster than the terran.
I am totally with you to make mech more relevant but in my opinion you have to buff mech for it and not nerf Bio.
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no, in fact I didnt rabid, I clrearly stated that changes that are made "are allowed" to effect other matchups. Also I said that it can be evened out with other changed if anything gets broken. Furthermore I said mirror matchups are not prior when it comes down to balance issues. Therefore a change that improves TvZ and decreases TvT quality would be a good change. I doubt that my suggested changes of improving mech would have a bad impact on TvT at all. Its about making mech viable in TvZ and TvP. It doest matter what happens in TvT then that much.
@ Horst
Just think about the following case:
Bio gets nerfed.
What happens? - Mechanics of other races would become OP then.
What then? - These mechanics can get nerfed too
The problem with only buffing is, that it will simply not work to make everything just stronger. Better is to make weak things stronger and strong things weaker.
Still I don't see how bio could be nerfed tho. So this would be difficult
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On July 31 2013 21:59 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:52 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game. well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU. What does it matter that it is a mirror? Unit balance is irrelevant because it is a mirror? Because the opponent can also make that unit? We can also all start playing the same race, then racial balance is also irrelevant. I cannot see something more boring than a ZvZ metagame where swarmhosts are too strong. Both sides making as many swarmhosts as possible to let free units fight each other...
maybe thats why i wrote it can be balanced out you know...right now its roach hydra into SHs pretty much every game...with my suggestions it would be ling bane muta vs roach hydra into ling bane muta ultra vs roach hydra SH or just mass muta would also be viable again since you could once again attack spores. it would actually give MORE options and not less like you make it sound. also no one said make SHs do +20dmg to bio. start with +3 or so.
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On July 31 2013 21:22 LSN wrote:
he is just trying to bullshit me.
he talks about obvious things like a changes in TvZ also have effect on other matchups. Real high level talk I guess.
He denies the fact that more of a rock scissors, paper system would solve alot of problems in the matchup.
That are:
Terrans no need gas
When playing the standard triple OC + dual EB build, Terran is gas-starved until 15' (infrastructure/upgrades/Medivacs), then start banking gas around the time 3/3 is started because at this stage, Terran generally has enough Medivacs to stop producing them continuously. LSN's subtle summary of all of this: "Terrans no need gas". You're also completely deluded if you think banking thousands of gas allows for strong lategame transitions: having 3k gas doesn't mean you're any less minerals-starved, which is why your fairy tale of 10+ Ravens into instant gg never happen in real games.
Terrans use one composition for everything
Conveniently forgetting Zergs can stay on lings/banes/mutas for 25-30 minuts too. Plus your argument is idiotic since it's exactly the same as in WoL: Terran could stay on bio/Tanks the whole game against ultras, and had to get Vikings/Ravens against broods, just like is it now.
Terrans can barely be harrassed at all
Yep, lings/banes can't raid Terran's pathetically weak mineral lines at all (see this game for instance), and a giant invisible net somehow prevents mutas from moving out of Zerg's side of the map.
Terrans can get all upgrades as fast as possible
Zerg can always start 1/1 and 2/2 before Terran.
Terrans can get all units as fast as possible, there is no limitation in gas
Such a stupid statement... What does it even mean? And what gas does Zerg's infrastructure cost exactly? Lair, bane nest, spire: 350 gas. Compare to 2 facts, one starport, Armory, 6 reactors and 3 tech labs and see which infrastructure is more gas-heavy?
Terrans don't need any spellcasters to play TvZ
And? Who cares? Also, technically Medivacs are spellcasters.
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On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce.
The concept of a terran tech switch at ANY point they decide they feel like it. LOL. Coming from a ZERG player as well....
Mass brood army didnt work? Boom! Pop 10 ultras!
Terran wanna make air transition? Okay....Let me start building starports, armory for ups, research raven upgrades, build fusion core, wait forever for my 2-3 starports to complete a single round of battlecruisers/ravens.
Yeah, dude, ANY time they want! Its not like you have 10min to scout the transition either and instantly mass a counter army before any transition is completed!
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On July 31 2013 22:03 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:59 Sissors wrote:On July 31 2013 21:52 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game. well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU. What does it matter that it is a mirror? Unit balance is irrelevant because it is a mirror? Because the opponent can also make that unit? We can also all start playing the same race, then racial balance is also irrelevant. I cannot see something more boring than a ZvZ metagame where swarmhosts are too strong. Both sides making as many swarmhosts as possible to let free units fight each other... maybe thats why i wrote it can be balanced out you know...right now its roach hydra into SHs pretty much every game...with my suggestions it would be ling bane muta vs roach hydra into ling bane muta ultra vs roach hydra SH or just mass muta would also be viable again since you could once again attack spores. it would actually give MORE options and not less like you make it sound. also no one said make SHs do +20dmg to bio. start with +3 or so.
A significant boost to swarmhost damage vs bio would give less options, since swarmhost become a required unit in ZvZ.
In ZvT I don't see it having any effect with a small change. Bio isn't good vs swarm hosts because they tank locust so well: They don't. Bio has high damage, but they still dont think fighting waves of locusts is a good idea. They are good vs swarmhosts because of their mobility. They attack where swarmhosts aren't. Or where swarmhosts are but where locusts aren't.
You really need to boost locusts attack enormously vs bio if you want them a good choice vs terran bio. And in that case I don't see how the ZvZ metagame wouldn't be ruined.
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On July 31 2013 19:57 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 19:37 kaluro wrote:On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. Actually he hasn't. Wat david kim hás said is that they are looking for ways to alter/buff the swarm host and viper, because they are too easy to deal with nowadays. Viper
David Kim: When designing Viper, because Protoss and Terran got some strong siege units, so we don't want to give Zerg another siege unit beside swarm host. So we designed viper to break the siege. But currently, Viper is not strong, we are planning to make some changes to it. When and where did DK say that?
www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422804
Few days ago.
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This thread is basically battle.net forums.
Always a blast to read through it though.
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Calling me low level and Terran biased makes all your effort writing long posts look dumb. I actually sugvested way back a damage nerf of single target as well as the splash from the widowmine but either an increase of splash for that matter or the chance to manually detonate them.
To the guy who asked if biomine vs ling muta bane is skill based. Yes I do believe so. Widowmines are volatile and unreliable. They can be negated or taken out or even backfire. The Micro terran needs in the fight is different from the Zerg but if you truly believe the Terran can watch the fight you are mad. I know lots of Terrans in grandmaster that struggle to get off the hits they need. I saw lucifron struggle and I see Terrans in proleague not getting the shots they need. Ofcourse it got harder for Zerg but if you say biomine in itself is imbalanced you are wrong. It gets insanely strong in the hands of a Terran master
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On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce.
Terran's don't get rewarded for bad macro like Zerg. They still need to build multiple starports, and wait several minutes of production if they want to switch into ravens. It's simply not feasible. Right now, Terrans constantly attack Zerg from 12 min until the game ends because Ultras are so fucking good.
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On July 31 2013 22:29 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce. Terran's don't get rewarded for bad macro like Zerg. They still need to build multiple starports, and wait several minutes of production if they want to switch into ravens. It's simply not feasible. Right now, Terrans constantly attack Zerg from 12 min until the game ends because Ultras are so fucking good.
this is wrong on so many levels lol.
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I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units
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On July 31 2013 22:10 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 22:03 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:59 Sissors wrote:On July 31 2013 21:52 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:42 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:38 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 21:35 Decendos wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? not LSN but here you go: - nerf WM splash (barely used TvT and TvP): dont do it, shows skill difference between zergs - give locusts +dmg to bio (wont affect ZvP (zealots get destroyed already vs locusts), obv buff vs bio TvZ - give hydra +dmg to bio (see above) and also reverse spore +bio dmg (or at least lower it again) - buff ovidrop, nydus, burrowmovement (affects other MUs in a positive way: more harrass possible for non-muta comps which is needed anyway) - make infestor a bit more useful again (for example give it back +10 dmg to armored) - buff blinding cloud vs mobile armies (for example let cloud stick for 4-5 sec. even if units move out of cloud) while maybe reducing cloud duration overall to 10-12 sec (buff to mech) - nerf WM splash effects WM drops in both TvT and TvP. WM drops have been used to great effect against protoss - give locusts +dmg to bio would hugely effect ZvZ since all zerg units are bio - give hydra +dmg to bio again huge ZvZ change - buff ovidrop/nydus/burrowmovement effects all matchups - make infestor a bit more useful again, again will change ZvZ - this would impact ZvP because zerg could use cloud against stalker armies All of these changes effect matchups other than ZvT. - WM drops get defended better and better - SH is rarely seen in ZvZ (more often these days because mutas got worse thx to spore buff) - once again with removing +dmg to bio from spores you can achieve hydras AND mutas being viable lairtech openers - i said it affects all MUs and helps harrassment of all non muta comps = good thing - infestors are rarely seen in any MU, also not in ZvZ. would not make them too strong but more viable - viper is hivetech....blink is ready like 5-10 min earlier My point is only that it changes all matchups, not just ZvT. And if you buff SH to be +bio, zergs would use it more often. If you remove +dmg from spores then you get a hydra timing that kills everything if you dont use it because: 1) Hydras are cheaper on gas 2) Hydras come out more quickly If you change infestors to make them stronger, it is possible that it is used again Why does it matter that viper is hivetech? It still makes viper very very powerful against protoss armies with that change. Imagine a viper/muta tech switch in the late game. well most of the stuff in zvz can be balanced out and is a mirror MU. What does it matter that it is a mirror? Unit balance is irrelevant because it is a mirror? Because the opponent can also make that unit? We can also all start playing the same race, then racial balance is also irrelevant. I cannot see something more boring than a ZvZ metagame where swarmhosts are too strong. Both sides making as many swarmhosts as possible to let free units fight each other... maybe thats why i wrote it can be balanced out you know...right now its roach hydra into SHs pretty much every game...with my suggestions it would be ling bane muta vs roach hydra into ling bane muta ultra vs roach hydra SH or just mass muta would also be viable again since you could once again attack spores. it would actually give MORE options and not less like you make it sound. also no one said make SHs do +20dmg to bio. start with +3 or so. A significant boost to swarmhost damage vs bio would give less options, since swarmhost become a required unit in ZvZ. In ZvT I don't see it having any effect with a small change. Bio isn't good vs swarm hosts because they tank locust so well: They don't. Bio has high damage, but they still dont think fighting waves of locusts is a good idea. They are good vs swarmhosts because of their mobility. They attack where swarmhosts aren't. Or where swarmhosts are but where locusts aren't. You really need to boost locusts attack enormously vs bio if you want them a good choice vs terran bio. And in that case I don't see how the ZvZ metagame wouldn't be ruined.
Bio kills swarm hosts outright, they just power down the locust in 3 seconds then kills the swarm host, you need an enormous amount of swarm host to be able to trade with terran bio or good support units like the infestor. Which make swarm host obsolete in midgame since you do not have enough gas to go swarm host/infestor or 20+ swarm host.
With that said terran can still just start to drop if you were able to get a critical mass of swarm host.
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On July 31 2013 22:29 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 21:53 LSN wrote:
well anyway sorry for this.
But TvZ is usually banked 2k+ gas. So obviously your argument about terring needs this much gas is just wrong? Additionally it allows terran to transition into anything gas heavy at any point when they decide to. Its not scarce. Terran's don't get rewarded for bad macro like Zerg. They still need to build multiple starports, and wait several minutes of production if they want to switch into ravens. It's simply not feasible. Right now, Terrans constantly attack Zerg from 12 min until the game ends because Ultras are so fucking good.
Noone get rewarded for bad macro, bad macro can only lose you games not win you games. Getting ravens is feasible finding a good timing for it is harder. And get marauders when you see hive problem solved.
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On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units
Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime?
Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim.
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EPT
