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He just has a grudge against me. I was in no way trying to gain data and make balance claims based on it, I just wanted to show that you eventually have to put some thought into it. If the named players that I feel excell in the particular matchup (Flash, Soulkey. INnoVation) are removed it should be more balanced in its data. As said, I simply believe that there are players ahead of their time that shouldn't be brought into balance discussion by those means.
To proof a point I even linked the god of the battlefield article which shows that sAviOr in his prime dominated Terran on Terran favored maps, but the game wasn't imbalanced because of it. He simply was outstanding in the match up and had a grasp on it. GhostOwl thinks I'm just riding a Terran train and want to have buffs here and there, but the truth is I would love a balanced game, yet I am free to say that I believe the current state of terran vs zerg is not as bad as he pointed out with his blatant statement that "65-70% is the favor towards Terran" because while the statistics points out high winrates, logic stands its ground and if he would actually think instead of only looking at numbers he would possibly agree.
In addition, I removed wins only from all three of the players.... so my intention was not to fake anything, but simply being not solid in doing statistics or playing around with them.
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On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not.
so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough.
even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line
Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran.
The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements.
Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base.
Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines.
It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me.
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On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me.
Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here!
While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there.
You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition.
And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one.
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On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:
I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion
The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while.
which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved.
Completely wrong:
On July 31 2013 22:07 TheDwf wrote:
When playing the standard triple OC + dual EB build, Terran is gas-starved until 15' (infrastructure/upgrades/Medivacs), then start banking gas around the time 3/3 is started because at this stage, Terran generally has enough Medivacs to stop producing them continuously.
(...)
And what gas does Zerg's infrastructure cost exactly? Lair, bane nest, spire: 350 gas. Compare to 2 facts, one starport, Armory, 6 reactors and 3 tech labs and see which infrastructure is more gas-heavy?
When playing this build, Terrans take their second gas around 6'30, their third and fourth one between 7'30 and 8', and their fifth one shortly after landing the third. Please study a bit Terrans' builds before pulling out random numbers out of nowhere...
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On August 01 2013 02:57 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me. Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here! While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there. You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition. And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one.
sadly right now the terrans "dream game" is standard if zerg doesnt do any kind of all in which horribly delays tech and is a huge coinflip. macrogames are just a mess right now since 3 CC into fast 2 ebays is a superstrong build and from 3 base the rally can go on for such a long time that a lot of times the 4th of zerg falls and with that the game ends in most games in a slow death animation (you cant support hive + upgrades + infestors + ultras + keep building banes and mutas (push doesnt stop ever) from 3 base). also most times all your units just defend defend defend so you never are able to harrass T.
basically once T gets 8-10+ WMs its gg if he doesnt fuck up. all problems lie in WMs and the inability to trade cost efficient with it....T never makes a mistake buildings mines which is a bad thing since no strategy or decision has to be made.
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On August 01 2013 03:41 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:57 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me. Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here! While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there. You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition. And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one. sadly right now the terrans "dream game" is standard if zerg doesnt do any kind of all in which horribly delays tech and is a huge coinflip. macrogames are just a mess right now since 3 CC into fast 2 ebays is a superstrong build and from 3 base the rally can go on for such a long time that a lot of times the 4th of zerg falls and with that the game ends in most games in a slow death animation (you cant support hive + upgrades + infestors + ultras + keep building banes and mutas (push doesnt stop ever) from 3 base). also most times all your units just defend defend defend so you never are able to harrass T. basically once T gets 8-10+ WMs its gg if he doesnt fuck up. all problems lie in WMs and the inability to trade cost efficient with it....T never makes a mistake buildings mines which is a bad thing since no strategy or decision has to be made.
You act like every Terran always has perfect mine connects, the truth is, without good mine connects the fight shifts utterly in Zergs favor so why do you make it sound like its not? Furthermore, as mentioned before its not easy, but very hard. If I remember correctly, SoulKey had 4 base saturated vs INnoVation on Gwangali when the parade push hit him.
Also the initial push to set up the parade is crucial, its the first push that allows either constant rally or not. If you can crush that, its possible to have more breathing room. You can either do that with a higher ling/bane count or skip mutas entirely . You will be weak vs drops in the first place, but the parade push usually puts everything into being established before dropping.
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On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game.
You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg).
Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's
Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down.
Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes
Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control)
He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map.
Polt was behind from very early on.
In regards to terrans and gas:
Terrans are starved for gas early on because they get a lot of upgrades/tech, but then they float it afterwards because the units themselves dont cost gas.
Early on terrans have tech labs/reactors, combat shields, stim, factory, and starport. All of this usually before 10 minutes (and lately, 1/1 too). They dont have to remake pretty much any of this again though, so after this first burst you dont use much... maybe 250-300 gas/cycle (compared to ~950-1050 minerals) and weapons/armor every 3 minutes.
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TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
The Zergs in this thread make claims that they consider "facts", ignore winrates by saying 50/50 is meaningless, yet link to extremely small Korean tournament sample sizes as their statistics. They demonstrate a clear lack of understanding in the TvZ matchup, and are arguing with 2 GM Terran players. This thread is golden.
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On August 01 2013 03:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:41 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me. Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here! While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there. You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition. And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one. sadly right now the terrans "dream game" is standard if zerg doesnt do any kind of all in which horribly delays tech and is a huge coinflip. macrogames are just a mess right now since 3 CC into fast 2 ebays is a superstrong build and from 3 base the rally can go on for such a long time that a lot of times the 4th of zerg falls and with that the game ends in most games in a slow death animation (you cant support hive + upgrades + infestors + ultras + keep building banes and mutas (push doesnt stop ever) from 3 base). also most times all your units just defend defend defend so you never are able to harrass T. basically once T gets 8-10+ WMs its gg if he doesnt fuck up. all problems lie in WMs and the inability to trade cost efficient with it....T never makes a mistake buildings mines which is a bad thing since no strategy or decision has to be made. You act like every Terran always has perfect mine connects, the truth is, without good mine connects the fight shifts utterly in Zergs favor so why do you make it sound like its not? Furthermore, as mentioned before its not easy, but very hard. If I remember correctly, SoulKey had 4 base saturated vs INnoVation on Gwangali when the parade push hit him. Also the initial push to set up the parade is crucial, its the first push that allows either constant rally or not. If you can crush that, its possible to have more breathing room. You can either do that with a higher ling/bane count or skip mutas entirely . You will be weak vs drops in the first place, but the parade push usually puts everything into being established before dropping.
oh yeah its hard on both sides, but its basically impossible for mines to not be super cost efficient in big fights...and all it needs is 1 mistake from zerg (which is much more seen since compared to banes since mines hit air and most of all...are invisible so 1 time no overseer in perfect spot can be gg).
as for the 4th being up...yeah sure its up but it didnt pay off really and if it gets killed its basically gg just because you cant support defending AND getting hive AND getting 3 3 (even if you dont go infestor or ultras) which is what i meant with slow death animation once 4th falls you WILL be 2 2 vs 3 3 some time later and its basically gg there. thats what people mean when they say T needs no gas (which is wrong until 3 3 but thats the breaking point in the game!).
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On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
The Zergs in this thread make claims that they consider "facts", ignore winrates by saying 50/50 is meaningless, yet link to extremely small Korean tournament sample sizes as their statistics. They demonstrate a clear lack of understanding in the TvZ matchup, and are arguing with 2 GM Terran players. This thread is golden.
I hate to burst your bubble Rhaegal but I can pretty much guarantee this wont be the case whatsoever.
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On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
The Zergs in this thread make claims that they consider "facts", ignore winrates by saying 50/50 is meaningless, yet link to extremely small Korean tournament sample sizes as their statistics. They demonstrate a clear lack of understanding in the TvZ matchup, and are arguing with 2 GM Terran players. This thread is golden.
There are 2 GM terrans?
TheDwf and Naruto? Or somebody else?
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On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on.
Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines.
Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore.
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On August 01 2013 03:41 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 02:57 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me. Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here! While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there. You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition. And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one. sadly right now the terrans "dream game" is standard if zerg doesnt do any kind of all in which horribly delays tech and is a huge coinflip. macrogames are just a mess right now since 3 CC into fast 2 ebays is a superstrong build and from 3 base the rally can go on for such a long time that a lot of times the 4th of zerg falls and with that the game ends in most games in a slow death animation (you cant support hive + upgrades + infestors + ultras + keep building banes and mutas (push doesnt stop ever) from 3 base). also most times all your units just defend defend defend so you never are able to harrass T. basically once T gets 8-10+ WMs its gg if he doesnt fuck up. all problems lie in WMs and the inability to trade cost efficient with it....T never makes a mistake buildings mines which is a bad thing since no strategy or decision has to be made.
I am having hard time finding games featuring this 3cc 2eb opening that not end up with terran dying at one point or another. I watched Suppy vs Alive, and thou Alive sniped the spire Suppy was able to outmacro him, deny the fourth for quite a while, make the transition into Broodlord/Infestor/Ultra/Corruptor and finally crush.
In the next series Alive opens 3cc 2eb on Star station and loses the macro game afterwards as Suppy is able to control the map with ling bane muta, snipe the fourht, set up enough eco to make the transition into T3 and once again mops things up with Broodlord/Infestor/Ultra/Corruptor.
I watched Major vs ByuL, cc first into 3 cc vs 3 hatch before pool into roach ling bane... did not work out well for Major, lol.
If this is "standard play" and happens "all the time" please link me to some recent games where I can see it happen... and actually work.
e: ok, I found that Innovation vs Soulkey series... but is there anyone else?
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On August 01 2013 04:33 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:41 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 02:57 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 02:18 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 01:11 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 00:44 ETisME wrote:On July 31 2013 23:28 scypio wrote:On July 31 2013 22:51 ETisME wrote:
I can't remember when was the last time zerg has a bigger upgrade advantage compared to terran, they are almost even when it comes to a quick 3rd CC.
but I have seen a LOT of games where zerg don't have 3/3 because no gas spared for hive
and when was the last time a terran get gas starved? I mean seriously, unless the terran is doing some huge air transition, I can't remember any that is low on gas when they are going bio mine
the early gas starve is only because terran is building a not so gas expensive units while having tonnes of upgrades rolling.
stim combat shield medivac factory(/ies) starport
plus the add ons.
AND terran doesn't need all 4 gas until later because of the minerals heavy composition with marines and barracks
Zerg is already gas starved at 5 to 6 gases just making ling baneling muta and 2/2 upgrades
no gas for the hive and 3/3 and hive units Well, the question is what gas-heavy terran composition can withstand a zerg attack based on their standard tech path (roach-ling-bane or ling-bane-muta or even some hydra composition). Is there any? Can the terran sit comfortably on 6 or 8 gases making thors and ravens and then move out happily onto the map without dying horribly in the meantime? Also, you say that in the early stage of the 4M buildup terran is not gas starved, he is just building stuff. How the hell can the T win without that stuff (production and upgrades?). Have fun stopping 5/3 ultras with 1/1 marines without stim. I am saying the gas requirement for Terran is an illusion The early gas requirement is actually lower for Terran than Zerg by a margin, you can see that from Terran being able to get a quick 3rd, double EG bay, tonnes of rax and stays on 2 or 3 gas for a while. which is why once terran finishes the infrastruture AND the upgrades, there are often tonnes of gas left over and mineral starved. and as for your revival vs polt game, this is exactly showing what's the problem of TvZ. Why a Zerg is constantly pinned down to equal base BUT not able to get 3/3 upgrades against a 3/3 bio? There are so many games where Zerg is pinned on equal base and has to play from an inferior upgrade. Zerg is constantly forced to play from a back hand because he is gas starved and not able to transition out from muta ling baneling stage and has to stick with 2/2 against a 3/3 army composition. IF zerg is able to get 3/3 muta ling baneling against a 3/3 bio mine then it would make sense and more fun. You can say good micro wins game but the base ground from both side is different. When one is at a 3/3 advantage, with equal level of micro the 2/2 already is behind I enjoyed watching Terran doing the bomber style TvZ 2/2 all in against Zerg during WoL doesn't mean that game is balanced. I can also list what he did right, macro'd spot on, traded well, hit perfect timing, good tank positioning etc. Do you expect top zerg to win against Terran with an inferior upgrades for all ZvTs? I'd like to see a game with 3cc all those things you list and two gases. This does not add up to me. I just watched Lucifron vs Hyun from DH (g2) where Luci goes 3cc 2eb. He is on four gas before 9 minute mark and has roughly 300 gas in the bank just as Hyun rolls him over with RLB. If Hyun opted in for a longer game Luci would get a starport, some addons, armory, second factory maybe and his gas count would be at zero. Different races are different, zerg needs to spend some more gas to open up his path towards 3/3 and it is up to the terran to prevent the Z from doing it. Terran commits all his resources into preventing the zerg from getting to hive tech. Whether or not zerg gets the hive should be (and is) decided by the actual engagements. If the zerg stomps the terran he can tech up and roll him over with T3 or roll him over with T2. If the trades go kinda even - then the outcome is uncertain even with the upgrade advantage in favor of T. And if the zerg gets broken - well, sorry, sometimes you have to lose. And yes, I do expect top zergs to baet top terrans with inferior upgrades, just like Revival beat Polt. I do not expect it to happen every single game, this would be kinda silly don't you think? Still this is an option that a good zerg player has (and takes advantage of). Also, you seem to think that getting to that "3/3 vs 2/2 even bases" situation is simple for the Terran. No, it is not. so if 3/3 lair tech vs a 2/2 even base while terran has total map control and gas banked, that is not big advantage enough. even getting to Hive doesn't mean it's gg, zerg is still at even base and behind on upgrades and it is hard to break into a terran defense line Of cause the game is still decided by the actual engagement. Just look at the STORM PvT where Storm saved Grubby's ass even though he was losing all the engagements and horrible positioning. It doesn't mean the game is balanced just because he won that game with storm and a huge mistake from the terran. The problem is whether it is fair for zerg to stay even base and has to play from a lower upgrade while terran has good map control and able to establish a 4th and possible 5th easier due to building placements. Terran isn't building an army to stop Zerg getting to hive tech. it just so happens that by the time terran 3 base economy starts paying off, they can start trading non stop with zerg which is on even base. Zerg don't even win with hive tech at all anymore because it all depends on that one good/bad trade on one particular engagement and usually that occurs when Zerg has 2/2 while terran at 3/3 and even possibly a 1 armor upgrade for mines. It sure sounds like Zerg is more likely to have a F-ed up engagement than the terran to me. Well, you are describing a scenario that is every terran's dream game. Fast 3cc, 2eb, 3/3, zerg pinned down and with no map control and limited tech etc. Well no wonder that T has advantage here! While playing starcraft you need to impose your playstyle on the opponent, either by defending well or hitting faster and stronger. Both options are there. You can watch Hyun vs Luci G2 where he stomps the 3cc with a pretty basic roach-ling-bane bust off three base. You can watch Polt vs Revival to see what to do when such all-in fails and that with good control you can win this from behind. You can watch Symbol vs Maru G3 on Star Station to see what happens if you successfully harass the terran before his game plan kicks in, outmacro him and smash with a T3 transition. And yes, if you watch games where everything goes according to terran's plan then terran is most likely to win, no wonder in that. Also: every player makes mistakes and letting your opponent do what he wants is a big one. sadly right now the terrans "dream game" is standard if zerg doesnt do any kind of all in which horribly delays tech and is a huge coinflip. macrogames are just a mess right now since 3 CC into fast 2 ebays is a superstrong build and from 3 base the rally can go on for such a long time that a lot of times the 4th of zerg falls and with that the game ends in most games in a slow death animation (you cant support hive + upgrades + infestors + ultras + keep building banes and mutas (push doesnt stop ever) from 3 base). also most times all your units just defend defend defend so you never are able to harrass T. basically once T gets 8-10+ WMs its gg if he doesnt fuck up. all problems lie in WMs and the inability to trade cost efficient with it....T never makes a mistake buildings mines which is a bad thing since no strategy or decision has to be made. I am having hard time finding games featuring this 3cc 2eb opening that not end up with terran dying at one point or another. I watched Suppy vs Alive, and thou Alive sniped the spire Suppy was able to outmacro him, deny the fourth for quite a while, make the transition into Broodlord/Infestor/Ultra/Corruptor and finally crush. In the next series Alive opens 3cc 2eb on Star station and loses the macro game afterwards as Suppy is able to control the map with ling bane muta, snipe the fourht, set up enough eco to make the transition into T3 and once again mops things up with Broodlord/Infestor/Ultra/Corruptor. I watched Major vs ByuL, cc first into 3 cc vs 3 hatch before pool into roach ling bane... did not work out well for Major, lol. If this is "standard play" and happens "all the time" please link me to some recent games where I can see it happen... and actually work. e: ok, I found that Innovation vs Soulkey series... but is there anyone else?
Its a good build and sets up Terran well for the midgame, but its a big wrong if people think Terran would be undoubtly ahead after it. The days in which Zergs played it safe when they could figure out what Terran was doing are long over. Zergs usually play very greedy themselves and are well set-up for the midgame as is Terran.
Even if the build gives a slight edge to Terran as your economy really kicks in at 11' - 13' people still fail to realize 4M is very volatile. If you fuck up a fight, you will be down and the game will be very hard to push into your favor. Its the same for Zerg, if they badly fuck up a fight, they will be behind, but that just shows how fragile the match up is. Slight nerfs and buffs can put a completely balance change. See how 'small' the queen buff actually was in terms of mechanical change, but the impact was insane.
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On August 01 2013 01:31 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:57 Vanadiel wrote:On July 31 2013 21:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:
LSN, what change can you make to zerg or terran that would have no effect on matchups other than ZvT? I would talk about some "minor" change that could be tested, which wouldn't affect that much the utility of WM in the other match up : - Make blinding cloud affect widow mine. This could changes nothing or maybe help a lot, but I believe it might be something good to regain position for the zerg, forcing the widow mine to unburrow and run away. It doesn't destroy bio mine play, it's still very strong in mid and late game, but it gives Zerg more option to counter attack then be agressive, and putting a clock on the "infinite" push. - Buff overseer speed when you research the OV speed upgrade. They are just too slow right now, if you try to play a counter attack style Overseer always stay behind as it its slower than mutalisk, so you'll get hit by random WM in the midle of the map. - CHange the IA priority, make it a little bit higher than it is right now. WM are really low priority, so if there is bio behind it WM will never get attacked and the fact that they are very small I don't really believe that these change would destroy the winrate of tip top terrans or flip the table into a huge zerg domination, but rather add a little bit more dynamism and possibility to the match up and making it less random. AN alternative option (which would affect all match up this time) would be to tweak the widow mine mechanics, not the actual damage or radius of damage, but just change the time between it's activated and the time your unit get hit. - Reduce that time, widow mine would be harder to snipe, but easier to trigger before the engagement. WM drop would be bufffed to, as you have less time to remove your drone. - Increase that time, WM are easier to snipe, easier to dodge but also easier to micro from the terran point of view, as you have more time to do the burrow/unburrow micro or switching target. Both option has pros and con, but these solution can be explored. Your "buffs" aren't really buffs, they're so minor they wont fix ZvT at all. Part of the current problem is the sheer strength of the bio ball and its cost effectiveness, what are you going to do about that?
I really don't want to see a nerf hammer of bio mine and I believe the best way to deal with this issue (if we agree there is an issue, it seems some here doesn't) in the match up is to go step by step, not by destroying a cool play style but by doing some minor tweak to gives more tech option and possibility of micro and test if it has a good impact. I believe that changing blinding cloud to affect WM could be that kind of change, letting the zerg to have more possibility to push away the bio push when Hive is finishing, maybe I'm wrong and this won't be enough but i would like to see it tested. In theory, I guess you could do a change of the Swarm Host to play the role of the anti-Widow Mine unit, but in reality I don't really what kind of change you could do, buff the SH while it's already a problematic (to say the least) unit in ZvP seems crazy.
The other option (change of the IA priority) might make a little bit easier to clean the widow mine field, so you're limiting a little bit this snowball effect that comes with bio+mines.
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On August 01 2013 05:10 NarutO wrote:
Its a good build and sets up Terran well for the midgame, but its a big wrong if people think Terran would be undoubtly ahead after it. The days in which Zergs played it safe when they could figure out what Terran was doing are long over. Zergs usually play very greedy themselves and are well set-up for the midgame as is Terran.
Even if the build gives a slight edge to Terran as your economy really kicks in at 11' - 13' people still fail to realize 4M is very volatile. If you fuck up a fight, you will be down and the game will be very hard to push into your favor. Its the same for Zerg, if they badly fuck up a fight, they will be behind, but that just shows how fragile the match up is. Slight nerfs and buffs can put a completely balance change. See how 'small' the queen buff actually was in terms of mechanical change, but the impact was insane.
Yes, I know that 3cc2eb is a good build and it sets up terran well for the midgame. After reading this thread I were under the impression that it is the standard goto strategy that every terran uses every TvZ and my gut tells me that it is not true.
I jump over to sc2links.com, look up some TvZs that were played recently, try to find guys that went for the 3cc2eb... in most games I watched terrans did not go for that opening. I found
Lucifron vs Hyun - Hyun wins with roach-ling-bane attack
Major vs ByuL - ByuL wins with a roach-ling-bane attack
Suppy vs Alive on Korhal Sky Island - Suppy wins the macro game after T3 transition
Suppy vs Alive on Star Station - Suppy wins the macro game after T3 transition
Innovation vs Soulkey series - Innovation wins
Right now it seems that it would be a good idea not to play 3cc2eb unless your Innovation. And it definitely does not feel like a "standard" strategy for the terran, in most games I watched the T opened rax CC fact starport into harassment.
Therefore I refuse to recognize this build as "tvz standard" until I get links to more games featuring it. Also, it would be nice if terrans actually won those games 
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On August 01 2013 01:12 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 00:58 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 00:24 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 00:20 NarutO wrote:
_MAKE HIVE UNITS BETTER VS 4M_
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? Seriously have you ever seen an EVEN GAME of TVZ with Zerg reaching hive? Ultras / ultra+bane or ultra+bane+infestor DO SHRED 4M TO PIECES actually there arent many games where T doesnt have a huge lead so not that many examples available. but yes there still are games and off creep ultra bane infestor while trading isnt an autowin for Z especially with T scouting it, going for lots of marauders and drops. and hivetech also means BLs or vipers not only ultras and both SUCK...like in are complete trash so could use some help. never said buff ultras, its about buffing blinding cloud vs mobile armies and nerfing BL counters like tempest or new raven. BL infestor is completely bad right now: 1. much worse infestor, 2. bigger maps, 3. tempest/raven hardcounter 4. insta +2 or +3 for vikings. so yeah it could need some love. oh and if you read my post correctly i said buff the transition and if needed support units itself from T. its just that MMMM shouldnt be viable all game long since it is boring as hell to watch all game long every game. would be much more interesting if T needed to add support units BUT also be able to do so! The problem is that Blizzards game design is based upon Terrans "not letting Zerg get there", because Terran has no units that could really be used to counter the Zerg high tech stuff. Just imagine you have a game where the Terran isnt allowed to harrass at all, but the Zerg can attack whenever it is convenient. Such a game would end up with a HUGE Zerg economy and a lot of Broodlord / Infestor / Ultralisks plus a swarm of Zerglings/Banelings/Roaches/Hydralisks as cannon fodder. What would the Terran be building? Fungal and the free unit generators are really a huge advantage of Zerg over anything that Terran has and thus the only tactic with a chance of success is to start harrassing the Zerg economy / production capability from the get go and to keep the Zerg "down". Zerg has the advantage in production over Terran, because they can produce anything from their stockpiled larvae while Terrans are limited by their number of production buildings for each type (bio, mech, air) and the number of tech labs he has. In addition he cant "stockpile production slots" as the Zerg can. Add this to the better high tier units and you have a huge discrepancy which only works with the "dont let them get there" strategy. Blizzard likes it this way, because it forces Terrans to harrass ... and they want action more than they want strategy in the game. A simple change to units will not fix this deign flaw ... This is so true, NONE of Terran's late game arsenal have AoE, 3/3 Thor AoE AA is terrible at doing damage since the flying-unit "fix, 0/3 Raven's are good for money shots with HSM, 3/3 BC's cost a bomb for 300 damage, spread out too thin to kill anything in huge numbers We're left with high supply cost siege tanks, widow mines and hellion/hellbat
I think a major reason for the discrepancy is - depending on which way you prefer to look at - that
a) Terran is the only race without a "crowd control spell" OR
b) Zerg and Protoss both have "crwod control spells".
Fungal and Forcefield are VERY powerful in the hands of a skilled player, but Terrans dont have anything similar. The one thing which might come close to such a "battlefield modification spell" is Point Defense Drone, BUT that is a passive spell and not one to restrict enemy movement, so it is probably more comparable to Timewarp than Forcefield.
Sure Terrans have their Seeker Missile, but Blizzard made evading them / minimizing damage dealt by them ridiculously obvious by adding the red coloring to the target. That is even less easy to use compared to Psi Storm.
Personally I think the existence of a crowd control spell for Terran *might* help to rectify the situation, but I also think that crowd control is a terrible thing to have in a strategy game, because you are basically denying an opponent the use of his skill. The one crowd control in BW - Stasis - was acceptable due to the invulnerability (which could backfire if you only "just" won the battle and three "fresh" Siege Tanks suddenly became active again).
The races would be much better balanced overall if ...
- there was no crowd control in the game (slow is ok, but root isnt),
- there were no "jumping abilities" which allow you to bypass defensive lines and chokes,
- the production speed boosts were gone and the game readjusted on a lower economy level,
- the unit density for ground units was adjusted to a point where "critical number" (and thus the deathball) are a thing of the past.
The reasoning behind this is that slower gameplay / kill speed allows for more control over your units in battle because stuff doesnt die instantly. It also means that keeping your units alive becomes more important and this forces micro. A lower unit density gives a defender the opportunity to set up an advantageous position and the attacker needs to be better to break it compared to the "I attack and if the defender screws up his Marine split I win and if he doesnt I just rebuild the stuff and try again".
tl;dr
Fungal, Forcefield and now the newly added Abduct basically screw over every big unit and I dont know why people complain about Terrans sticking to their cheap mass-produced units because of this. If you want Terrans to use other stuff look at your own arsenal and think if the stuff is really "fair".
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On August 01 2013 06:55 Rabiator wrote:tl;dr
Fungal, Forcefield and now the newly added Abduct basically screw over every big unit and I dont know why people complain about Terrans sticking to their cheap mass-produced units because of this. If you want Terrans to use other stuff look at your own arsenal and think if the stuff is really "fair".
rofl, all those forcefields holding back Battlecruisers, laughing my ass off...
Keep the monster posts on everything that wasn't in BW and which you therefore don't like coming. They are highly entertaining. Could you do one on "why flying ebays are the missing puzzle to make Mech vs Protoss playable" next?
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On August 01 2013 06:50 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 05:10 NarutO wrote:
Its a good build and sets up Terran well for the midgame, but its a big wrong if people think Terran would be undoubtly ahead after it. The days in which Zergs played it safe when they could figure out what Terran was doing are long over. Zergs usually play very greedy themselves and are well set-up for the midgame as is Terran.
Even if the build gives a slight edge to Terran as your economy really kicks in at 11' - 13' people still fail to realize 4M is very volatile. If you fuck up a fight, you will be down and the game will be very hard to push into your favor. Its the same for Zerg, if they badly fuck up a fight, they will be behind, but that just shows how fragile the match up is. Slight nerfs and buffs can put a completely balance change. See how 'small' the queen buff actually was in terms of mechanical change, but the impact was insane.
Yes, I know that 3cc2eb is a good build and it sets up terran well for the midgame. After reading this thread I were under the impression that it is the standard goto strategy that every terran uses every TvZ and my gut tells me that it is not true. I jump over to sc2links.com, look up some TvZs that were played recently, try to find guys that went for the 3cc2eb... in most games I watched terrans did not go for that opening. I found Lucifron vs Hyun - Hyun wins with roach-ling-bane attack Major vs ByuL - ByuL wins with a roach-ling-bane attack Suppy vs Alive on Korhal Sky Island - Suppy wins the macro game after T3 transition Suppy vs Alive on Star Station - Suppy wins the macro game after T3 transition Innovation vs Soulkey series - Innovation wins Right now it seems that it would be a good idea not to play 3cc2eb unless your Innovation. And it definitely does not feel like a "standard" strategy for the terran, in most games I watched the T opened rax CC fact starport into harassment. Therefore I refuse to recognize this build as "tvz standard" until I get links to more games featuring it. Also, it would be nice if terrans actually won those games
pretty much everyone does it on high master/low gm mmr on eu ladder.
opening differs (cc first, reaper helion, helion banshee, ...) but 3cc 2eb 9 min mass production into a lot of pressure is THE standard setup of like 80% of all zvt i play. the rest is proxy raxes/mech/weird hellbat allins.
you could probably easily maintain an at least 50% win rate zvt on ladder if you just roach bling allin'd every game.
On August 01 2013 07:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 06:55 Rabiator wrote:tl;dr
Fungal, Forcefield and now the newly added Abduct basically screw over every big unit and I dont know why people complain about Terrans sticking to their cheap mass-produced units because of this. If you want Terrans to use other stuff look at your own arsenal and think if the stuff is really "fair". rofl, all those forcefields holding back Battlecruisers, laughing my ass off... Keep the monster posts on everything that wasn't in BW and which you therefore don't like coming. They are highly entertaining. Could you do one on "why flying ebays are the missing puzzle to make Mech vs Protoss playable" next?
why do people still read and even respond to his posts? after reading like 5 of his posts i chose to just skip over every one of his posts from that point on.
edit: qickly reading over rabiators post:
fucking lol. conveniently forgetting maelstrom and ensnare. yeah those surely were used very often! crowd control op!
.... back to never reading his posts again.
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EPT
