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On August 01 2013 09:44 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 09:11 H0i wrote:
The Korean WR should not be overvalued because of the small sample size, and very high Z representation in earlier rounds of OSL, including many players one could argue are not at the absolute top. If any terrans that have been in the thread for the last 10-15 pages agrees with this, you are a gigantic hypocrite. I kind of agree that there was a gigantic over saturation of zergs that absolutely shouldn't have been in code s by the end of wol, but on the other hand there were also so fucking many terrans for so long in code s that I'm not sure if thats an entirely accurate way to argue something.
I mostly mean because I used a similar argument about the Terrans that the korean zergs won in the foreign tournaments, and some terrans said you cant ignore stuff like that.
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On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz.
I believe the general opinion is that people find
bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg
I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false
but thats how i see it
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Northern Ireland23906 Posts
On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it
Why? What's good about it.
Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be.
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On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be.
He's kind of right though, tvz can be absolutely hilarious when some mines goes off and kill 40 supply, ie soulkey vs innovation g3
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Northern Ireland23906 Posts
On August 01 2013 10:15 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. He's kind of right though, tvz can be absolutely hilarious when a mine goes of and kills 40 supply, ie soulkey vs innovation g3
What is funny for somebody is depressing for somebody else like me 
It's just retarded volatility packaged as 'excitement' that looks good when you put it against the BL/Infestor era.
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On August 01 2013 10:16 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:15 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. He's kind of right though, tvz can be absolutely hilarious when a mine goes of and kills 40 supply, ie soulkey vs innovation g3 What is funny for somebody is depressing for somebody else like me It's just retarded volatility packaged as 'excitement' that looks good when you put it against the BL/Infestor era.
It's laugh or cry when you pick zerg and that happens to you. In any event, I think we can pretty much agree that 2011 zvt was absolutely the pinnacle of sc2. Maybe some of the tvt matches have been better, but as an overall matchup I just don't think it compares.
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On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents.
This is a decent summation of why even though I enjoy HotS more than the last year of WoL, it's not nearly as fun to me as was the era after we got rid of terrible maps like Steppes and before the queen patch ruined everything. HotS has become a game where at high levels the most important thing is speed and reaction time instead of playing a game of board control and actually strategizing. Instead of slowly taking over a map, your job is to take your fast army, find the other guy's fast army, kill it fast, and kill his expansions as fast as you can after that, and see if you were fast enough to deal critical damage before he reproduces enough units to drive you back. As tiresome as it is to invoke the name of BW for the millionth time, there just isn't anything in HotS as exciting as a good game of BW TvP or TvZ. I didn't even play Terran in BW (because fuck building Terran bases in that game, holy shit) but I still loved watching the Terran matchups because of how much Terran's ability to set up stationary positions and how much Terran's fragility while on the move forced players to be careful and creative and very selective about how they did things. It was fascinating to me to watch these battles play out that took up several screens and often ended indecisively, whereas it's not so fun to watch giant blobs chase each other around in HotS and die in 3 seconds.
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On August 01 2013 10:24 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. This is a decent summation of why even though I enjoy HotS more than the last year of WoL, it's not nearly as fun to me as was the era after we got rid of terrible maps like Steppes and before the queen patch ruined everything. HotS has become a game where at high levels the most important thing is speed and reaction time instead of playing a game of board control and actually strategizing. Instead of slowly taking over a map, your job is to take your fast army, find the other guy's fast army, kill it fast, and kill his expansions as fast as you can after that, and see if you were fast enough to deal critical damage before he reproduces enough units to drive you back. As tiresome as it is to invoke the name of BW for the millionth time, there just isn't anything in HotS as exciting as a good game of BW TvP or TvZ. I didn't even play Terran in BW (because fuck building Terran bases in that game, holy shit) but I still loved watching the Terran matchups because of how much Terran's ability to set up stationary positions and how much Terran's fragility while on the move forced players to be careful and creative and very selective about how they did things. It was fascinating to me to watch these battles play out that took up several screens and often ended indecisively, whereas it's not so fun to watch giant blobs chase each other around in HotS and die in 3 seconds.
You can still do that but given the high supply cost of positional mech (mine/tank) it would be madness compared to setting up six medivacs worth of 4M and infrastructure to replace them in one cycle.
Since this is a balance thread, maybe Blizzard can give a supply discount to units stationed around certain structures, e.g. 2 radius around a Sensor tower.
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Northern Ireland23906 Posts
Essentially agreed forsooth. I don't have the time to play much and to really get builds down outside of my own intuition. From that standpoint I try to play solidly/mechanically, and grind my opponents down. Anyway, the games I have enjoyed (from recollection)
1. A PvT where I played retardedly greedy and lost my natural nexus not once but twice. I fought from the brink of defeat in a super nailbiting game, where clutch storms helped me to stabilise from a huge deficit.
2. A PvZ where I had a good 3-4 minutes of intense early game back-and-forth after going for an oldschool 7 gate blink allin that my opponent sniffed out.
3. A PvT I almost lost because, rather than press an advantage and kill my opponent, I decided to try to control numerous warp prisms with Templar and storm drop, and do expansion pokes with Stalkers.
In games where things go 'according to plan' I am either bored as fuck, or frustrated as fuck, truth be told. I gave HoTS a chance but that's where I stand. Too many volatile strats, combined with not enough time to learn them all/responses to them so that's me done.
In my case, I still enjoy watching, and tbh I enjoy TeamLiquid too much to leave and I don't want to be one of those people who continually bitches about not playing the game and why (outside of this obviously)
A while ago, I tried to gather like-minded folk in a collaborative project to try to convey to Blizzard the frustrations of many of us, got to some 110k words on my hard-drive but I didn't have the ability/will to follow it through. I love the Starcraft universe, and the SC2 pro scene to watch, I have great memories of the game.
The fundamental design issues of the game were something I wanted/expected to at least be looked at at some stage, but it's pretty apparent they haven't been.
I played Warcraft 3 for YEARS, and was pretty terrible. My nearest claim to 'fame' was cracking the top 1k in 2v2, but yeah I was largely bad. However, do I feel frustration at the game? Did I continually question 'why bother?' after ladder games? No I didn't, WC3 was fun as fuck to play. WC3 gave the impression, even after a crushing defeat that you had lost to either a smarter player tactically, or a player who had superior micro to you. Starcraft 2, eugh I just don't feel that. It's the most frustrating and annoying game I have ever played
Other than Brood War though, wtf can I play that has the combination of both macro mechanics, micro and richness of strategy? It seems to me that that style of RTS just doesn't exist anymore.
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On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts.
Are you serious...
when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD
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On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be.
With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm
With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank
It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank
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On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD
I wasnt discussing this last season really, so I have no clue what other people were citing. Meanwhile, no zergies have chosen which one... in fact both of us are more questioning why there is such a huge difference. You are a strange fellow
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On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank
David, is that you ?
Tank play, and mech in general, seems to be less micro taxing than bio but it's just different. With mech, due to the lack of mobility and the presence of "hard-countering" units in your opponent's army, you've to focus fire a lot. With bio, your micro is all about splitting and stutter stepping, better said about movement. Sure, bio micro looks more flashy on the screen, but it's a different topic. And bio-mine, as stated by many people, is getting old when it's the only thing we get to see in pro-tournaments. A real time strategy game with one stragegy being used over and over is kind of underwhelming. Luckily, at my level, everything works (and fails !).
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On August 01 2013 11:13 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank David, is that you ? Tank play, and mech in general, seems to be less micro taxing than bio but it's just different. With mech, due to the lack of mobility and the presence of "hard-countering" units in your opponent's army, you've to focus fire a lot. With bio, your micro is all about splitting and stutter stepping, better said about movement. Sure, bio micro looks more flashy on the screen, but it's a different topic. And bio-mine, as stated by many people, is getting old when it's the only thing we get to see in pro-tournaments. A real time strategy game with one stragegy being used over and over is kind of underwhelming. Luckily, at my level, everything works (and fails !).
The change has to be organic to be a real strategy game, sorry.
Otherwise any change in the meta becomes forced and looks painful to everyone, see WoL's queen patch.
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Northern Ireland23906 Posts
You can focus-fire siege tanks in a way you can't with widowmines.
I've heard that it's potentially doable, I haven't really seen it myself.
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On August 01 2013 11:13 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank David, is that you ? Tank play, and mech in general, seems to be less micro taxing than bio but it's just different. With mech, due to the lack of mobility and the presence of "hard-countering" units in your opponent's army, you've to focus fire a lot. With bio, your micro is all about splitting and stutter stepping, better said about movement. Sure, bio micro looks more flashy on the screen, but it's a different topic. And bio-mine, as stated by many people, is getting old when it's the only thing we get to see in pro-tournaments. A real time strategy game with one stragegy being used over and over is kind of underwhelming. Luckily, at my level, everything works (and fails !).
What about position of your widowmines?
Your position of your bioforce in relation to where your widowmines are?
Smells like positionalplay like me, my name is not David
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On August 01 2013 10:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
I played Warcraft 3 for YEARS, and was pretty terrible. My nearest claim to 'fame' was cracking the top 1k in 2v2, but yeah I was largely bad. However, do I feel frustration at the game? Did I continually question 'why bother?' after ladder games? No I didn't, WC3 was fun as fuck to play. WC3 gave the impression, even after a crushing defeat that you had lost to either a smarter player tactically, or a player who had superior micro to you. Starcraft 2, eugh I just don't feel that. It's the most frustrating and annoying game I have ever played
Other than Brood War though, wtf can I play that has the combination of both macro mechanics, micro and richness of strategy? It seems to me that that style of RTS just doesn't exist anymore.
Yeah, same deal. I started playing SC/BW in 99 and played it pretty consistently all the way up to around 07-08 and I never felt like I was playing against bad balance or bad game design when I lost. If I got facerolled by some guy, I just kept at it because it was fucking fun. I was introduced to the game by a good friend of mine and he taught me how to play by destroying me in 1v1s for like 3 months straight before I finally took a game off him. Everything about how the game felt while you were playing it was really compelling, and the length of time I played it for far outstrips any other multiplayer game I've ever gotten into. SC2 just fails to capture that same level of interest because losing so often boils down not to "my gameplan wasn't good enough" but rather "I looked away from the minimap during the wrong three seconds".
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Broodwar was amazing not only in design, but also was so well balanced that it wasn't just each race could win against any other race, but each playstyle could win against any playstyle. SC2 has not only made macro and micro so easy that they've neutered most available playstyles, but the balance and design of the game revolves around a few units. rather then the whole race. It's pretty disgusting, because in 2011 tvz had more opportunities to display skill then we have 2 years later. There was the mkp micro heavy style, the mma multi tasking style, the mvp mechanics style and the bomber macro style. Now theres basically an optimal route which is really quite sad.
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On August 01 2013 11:18 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:13 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank David, is that you ? Tank play, and mech in general, seems to be less micro taxing than bio but it's just different. With mech, due to the lack of mobility and the presence of "hard-countering" units in your opponent's army, you've to focus fire a lot. With bio, your micro is all about splitting and stutter stepping, better said about movement. Sure, bio micro looks more flashy on the screen, but it's a different topic. And bio-mine, as stated by many people, is getting old when it's the only thing we get to see in pro-tournaments. A real time strategy game with one stragegy being used over and over is kind of underwhelming. Luckily, at my level, everything works (and fails !). The change has to be organic to be a real strategy game, sorry. Otherwise any change in the meta becomes forced and looks painful to everyone, see WoL's queen patch.
I don't think the queen patch was done so zergs could rush to hive and mass broodlords-infestors. Blizzard just wanted zergs to secure a better early game economy, but it snowballed and we got that Z domination era. However, for hots, the devs made it very clear what they wanted to see (more speed, more harass, more low supply units) and what they felt was boring. I'd say the meta-game today is much more "forced" than it ever was.
On August 01 2013 11:28 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:13 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank David, is that you ? Tank play, and mech in general, seems to be less micro taxing than bio but it's just different. With mech, due to the lack of mobility and the presence of "hard-countering" units in your opponent's army, you've to focus fire a lot. With bio, your micro is all about splitting and stutter stepping, better said about movement. Sure, bio micro looks more flashy on the screen, but it's a different topic. And bio-mine, as stated by many people, is getting old when it's the only thing we get to see in pro-tournaments. A real time strategy game with one stragegy being used over and over is kind of underwhelming. Luckily, at my level, everything works (and fails !). What about position of your widowmines? Your position of your bioforce in relation to where your widowmines are? Smells like positionalplay like me, my name is not David
Never said it wasn't. You position your bio-mine force, sure, and what comes next ? You run away from them and pray that the computer gives you good detonations (and it usually does). Next ? Your mines are out of order for the next 40 sec, they become totally irrelevant and you just forget about them so you can focus on your bio. Why forget about the mines ? Because by the time they become active again, the battle is most likely over as everything happen so fast in sc2. The positional play of bio-tank is much better designed.
As you said, mines make engagements less predictable but only because it's by far the most random unit in the game. Is it a good thing ? Bleh, no matter how much I love playing terran, I dislike this concept. The more incertitude I can suppress, the better.
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Lukeeze[zR
Never said it wasn't. You position your bio-mine force, sure, and what comes next ? You run away from them and pray that the computer gives you good detonations (and it usually does). Next ? Your mines are out of order for the next 40 sec, they become totally irrelevant and you just forget about them so you can focus on your bio. Why forget about the mines ? Because by the time they become active again, the battle is most likely over as everything happen so fast in sc2. The positional play of bio-tank is much better designed
I edited it out, i am confused dunno what i did wrong but no big deal
You position your bio-mine force, sure, and what comes next ?
Alot of things
You run away from them and pray that the computer gives you good detonations (and it usually does)
No, you try to avoid getting lucky and try to use as much skills as possible
Your mines are out of order for the next 40 sec, they become totally irrelevant and you just forget about them so you can focus on your bio. Why forget about the mines ?
disagree strongly
Because by the time they become active again, the battle is most likely over as everything happen so fast in sc2. The positional play of bio-tank is much better designed
disagree again
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EPT
