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On August 01 2013 07:23 willstertben wrote:
pretty much everyone does it on high master/low gm mmr on eu ladder.
opening differs (cc first, reaper helion, helion banshee, ...) but 3cc 2eb 9 min mass production into a lot of pressure is THE standard setup of like 80% of all zvt i play. the rest is proxy raxes/mech/weird hellbat allins.
you could probably easily maintain an at least 50% win rate zvt on ladder if you just roach bling allin'd every game.
Oh wait a second, I think there is a huge difference between a 3cc2eb build (where the third command center is started at ~5:45) and any other build that features a starport and a third at ~8:30.
There is no other option really for the terran - I mean there was one (read: hellbat-marauder two-base all-in) and it got nerfed to death. So why would anyone feel strange about T getting a third and setting up for mid-game if there is nothing else to choose from.
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LMFAO.
This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now.
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Hypothetical question: Suppose you took ghosts out of the game. Could Terran still compete against Protoss?
Okay, what if you took hellbats out? Could they compete against Zerg?
What about banshees? What about sensor towers? Emergency supply depots? Flying command centres? Mules? Isn't it possible Terran could find a way to compete even without all these things?
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On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now.
LMFAO:
On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
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Goddamnit, Big J way too fast for me :/ I wanted that one.
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On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
I've never been happier to be wrong in my life. SC2 is the most balanced it's ever been!
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On August 01 2013 07:52 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT. I've never been happier to be wrong in my life. SC2 is the most balanced it's ever been!
What???
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On August 01 2013 07:52 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT. I've never been happier to be wrong in my life. SC2 is the most balanced it's ever been!
September 2012 was better ;-)
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On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT.
Why do you laugh? TvP is nearly 100% more imbalanced than TvZ.
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On August 01 2013 07:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT. Why do you laugh? TvP is nearly 100% more imbalanced than TvZ.
hehe. would be even funnier if you didnt confuse those two wih each other
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I kind of expected these results. In a game played by humans, everyone complaining about everyone is the closest to balance that we can get.
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On August 01 2013 08:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:57 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT. Why do you laugh? TvP is nearly 100% more imbalanced than TvZ. hehe. would be even funnier if you didnt confuse those two wih each other
Bugger this for a larke, you're right!
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On August 01 2013 07:45 GreenGringo wrote:
Hypothetical question: Suppose you took ghosts out of the game. Could Terran still compete against Protoss?
Not even remotely possible. If Templar had guaranteed Storms, Protoss would pretty much automatically win once they got a 3base economy. Terran would have to either 2base all-in, play mech, or do a 3base SCV pull with Vikings.
Okay, what if you took hellbats out? Could they compete against Zerg?
Yes, but the game would be less interesting and more passive.
What about banshees?
Yes.
What about sensor towers?
Yes, but it would be a disadvantage on large maps.
Emergency supply depots?
Yes.
Flying command centres?
Nope. High ground CCs would be awful, PvT would be a free win against any expansion based build since you can just Blink all-in and he can't lift.
Mules?
No chance whatsoever.
Isn't it possible Terran could find a way to compete even without all these things?
Some of them, yes; others, no. Depends a lot on what you mean by compete. If you mean "play standard and macro," by which I mean a style of play which emphasizes an economical, flexible opening that can be adapted to defense with good scouting, then everything other than Banshees, emergency depots, and sensor towers (depending on the map) are necessarily.
The idea of removing CC lifting/MULEs/Ghosts is absolutely absurd. The game would be cheese or die in every matchup, since you wouldn't be able to expand early (since even a reactive all-in would kill you) and you wouldn't be able to win late (no Ghosts vs Toss late = just leave the game) and you also would have a lot less production since you don't have MULEs. So basically, Terran would be more or less fucked all around.
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On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore.
In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead.
EDIT:
Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts.
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The Korean WR should not be overvalued because of the small sample size, and very high Z representation in earlier rounds of OSL, including many players one could argue are not at the absolute top.
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On August 01 2013 09:11 H0i wrote:
The Korean WR should not be overvalued because of the small sample size, and very high Z representation in earlier rounds of OSL, including many players one could argue are not at the absolute top.
If any terrans that have been in the thread for the last 10-15 pages agrees with this, you are a gigantic hypocrite.
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On August 01 2013 09:20 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:11 H0i wrote:
The Korean WR should not be overvalued because of the small sample size, and very high Z representation in earlier rounds of OSL, including many players one could argue are not at the absolute top. If any terrans that have been in the thread for the last 10-15 pages agrees with this, you are a gigantic hypocrite.
I kind of agree that there was a gigantic over saturation of zergs that absolutely shouldn't have been in code s by the end of wol, but on the other hand there were also so fucking many terrans for so long in code s that I'm not sure if thats an entirely accurate way to argue something.
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Northern Ireland25995 Posts
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents.
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On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents.
I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz.
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EPT
