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On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank
Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.
If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode.
With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it.
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@foxxan
You do realize that the second quote is about the emphasis you put on mech micro vs bio micro whereas the first one is about bio-mine engagament ? Don't try to cut them/make them related when they aren't, it's poor sport :[
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I think SC2 is degrading. its becoming dull and one-dimensional. Balance is not even an issue at this point.
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The widow mine basically costs the same as 2 marines, except this unit kills 20 lings and if you dont kill it, it can do it again. Since zerg doesn't have a ranged unit to deal with them (roach hydra mostly sucks balls in tvz) if you let terran go 3 cc they just rally marine mine at you until you die. At this point all-ins to stop 3 cc builds are identifiable and stoppable so it's not really viable to say "punish 3 cc". WoL TvZ was pretty broken, but i feel like HoTS TvZ is garbage aswel.
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On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL.
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On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now.
Dont wanna be a dick but arent you the one who called aligulac "shitty'?
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On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD
On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png
So what about you, which source is better now?
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On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL.
If you find something to be inaccurate, it usually helps your case to state why you think it is inaccurate.
On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now?
hahaha, oh god that is seriously rich.
In other news: I find myself kind of liking the idea of siege tanks getting a buff somehow in order to make WM less attractive. At the same time, what use does the WM have if you use ST instead?
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On August 01 2013 12:59 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
@foxxan
You do realize that the second quote is about the emphasis you put on mech micro vs bio micro whereas the first one is about bio-mine engagament ? Don't try to cut them/make them related when they aren't, it's poor sport :[
Hm no i dont try to be unfairplay, i may have misunderstood
You said bio with mine is only splitting and stutterstepping
I may have misunderstood, you mean bio only?
Hmm iam confused
Just to clarify
You said bio/mine is only stutterstepping and splitting , you didnt mention positioning
Oh well i can edit it idc
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On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now?
Owned..... Is really all that needs to be said. But it is interesting looking at http://aligulac.com/reports/ . Terran winrates in both match ups have consistently declined with each passing month.
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On August 01 2013 13:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL. If you find something to be inaccurate, it usually helps your case to state why you think it is inaccurate. Mine placement is incredibly important in determining their effectiveness. As is mine targeting. They also synergize extremely well with MMM by covering alternate angles of attack and making straight-up overruns of the bio force unfavorable until mine shots have been triggered, allowing the bio units to make full use of their range and DPS advantages. Additionally, the efficiency of the Widow Mine depends not on the opponent screwing up, but on you outplaying your opponent in the Widow Mine dance. Widow Mines can absolutely be used to advance, and are instrumental in allowing small groups of bio units to pick off expansions and the like. Literally not a single sentence of that paragraph was remotely close to being accurate.
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On August 01 2013 14:01 Mattumsfox wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now? Owned..... Is really all that needs to be said. But it is interesting looking at http://aligulac.com/reports/ . Terran winrates in both match ups have consistently declined with each passing month.
Yeah it is. I find it funny that after all this outcry about TvZ turns out its 51,5 % which is exactly like ZvP
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On August 01 2013 07:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 07:52 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 07:45 Big J wrote:On August 01 2013 07:44 Rhaegal wrote:LMFAO. This is just fucking great. Can't wait for the Zergs to start dismissing the shit they were using as evidence last month. Wonder what excuses they will make now. LMFAO: On August 01 2013 03:56 Rhaegal wrote:
TvP winrates this month will be far worse than ZvT. I've never been happier to be wrong in my life. SC2 is the most balanced it's ever been! September 2012 was better ;-)
Actually it was not , - 46,3% in one matchup, Protoss losing both matchups. Now you have every race winning one matchup and no matchup above 51,5%
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On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now?
I still say aligulac is shitty, just find it hilarious that all the Zergies are ditching Aligulac for tlpd now, when they held to Aligulac last month.
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I assume aligulac includes all games in their database (around 1300 per matchup this month). Question is what games includes TLPD graph (i dont know where to find xls version with actual data.)
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On August 01 2013 14:19 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now? I still say aligulac is shitty, just find it hilarious that all the Zergies are ditching Aligulac for tlpd now, when they held to Aligulac last month.
But funny part is that you are completly opposite. You were first one to jump on aligulac results. And can you give the names of "all there zergies" that ditching aligulac. Try to be lease biased next time.
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On August 01 2013 14:22 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 14:19 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 13:27 keglu wrote:On August 01 2013 10:43 Rhaegal wrote:On August 01 2013 08:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 04:15 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 03:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 00:01 scypio wrote:One more thing on the poor gas-starved zergs: go here and watch Polt vs Revival G1 from Shanghai http://www.twitch.tv/m/57807What happens: Polt keeps Revival pinned at 3 vs 3 bases Supply advantage is shifting from one player to the other along the way Polt gets 3/3 for his bio ready before Revival gets 2/2 Revival has no hive and sticks to ling-bane-muta. The game goes for over 30 minutes. Revival wins. What happened? For me Revival displayed the things that were discussed in this topic before. He microed well against the 4M, sniped medivacs with mutas, baited mine shots, moved in with banes to clean them up, kept good map awareness, denied the fourth with a burrowed ling, then denied it again with some runby, finally cleaned it up with mutas. I expect top zerg players to be able to do this kind of stuff to win. In fact, this is something any top zerg can do if he opts for muta play. And I like this kind of game. You leave out the part where Polt gets hit by roach/bane and loses pretty much all of his economy at the beginning and is down 50+ supply (even dipping down to being at 76 supply with only SCV's in his main vs zerg at 126 supply) but still manages to make the game go to 38 minutes (with having 0 income for the last 8 minutes vs 1 base for zerg). Supply advantage never shifted. Revival was ahead the entire game after killing 40+ SCV's Revival had a 4th base up for a REALLY long time, I dont get how he is quite pinned down. Polt stayed alive with no income for about 8 minutes Polt also didnt use 4m, he used marine/medivac/mine. He left out marauders, which are great at soaking damage from lings/mutas (and at times banelings, depending on the control) He lost all of his positioning battles on a map that position is vitally important. Planet S is (imo) the worst map. Polt was behind from very early on. Polt was behind but he held the all-in and ended up ahead. Still, Revival took the game playing from behind with inferior upgrades. He played well and won, also it is a good game to look at way to position your lings, banes and mutas and micro them against widow mines. Once again: this is what top zerg players do. It is not March 2013 anymore. In what world do you live in that he is ahead? Even the commentator is saying that Revival was way ahead. EDIT: Damn, that is a huge difference between aligulac and those charts. Are you serious... when TLPD last season showed that ZvT was 50%, people dismissed it for Aligulac. Now it's reversed and all the Zergies are going with tlpd. This is great XD On July 20 2013 03:51 Rhaegal wrote:On July 20 2013 03:43 keglu wrote:On July 20 2013 02:57 LSN wrote:On July 19 2013 23:00 Rhaegal wrote:On July 19 2013 22:56 MostGroce wrote:
My post is only about Zerg vs Terran -- Would love some encouragement to keep playing this game.
I cant help but think about the changes made for heart of the swarm compared to wings of liberty.
People could argue that the end of wol was sc2's most balanced time. So for zvt to be balanced in hots both races would of had to gain equal improvements. Here are the changes- with my bias opinions attached.
Hydras- given a buff, but honestly they really are not that great and for them to be not that great you have to pay for hydra den/ then TWO upgrades AND range ups which is too much of an investment and commitment for, lets be honest, hydras are not that good for what they cost.
medivacs have boost now, that is a huge buff to terran in tvz
Infestors- fungle and inf terran both nerfed with hots release
thor- buff vs blords/ ultra- Not a huge deal because honestly I like terran making anything other then mines and marines
swarm hosts- only good vs terrans that mech which imo is just not good so why would they do it
widow mines- a very cost effective unit that can defend or be aggro with. (buff to terran in tvz)
tanks- no siege upgrade needed (great for holding roach all-in as you only need like 1) - buff for terran in tvz
viper- doesnt affect mines, does well vs mech and not bio. so again doesnt help zerg vs bio mine.
hellbats- makes hellions more flexible and are not bad themselves- buff to terran
banshee- cloak cost lower, why? to give terran more options.....? jesus....
burrow , spores, and hydra movement are the only buffs to zerg that have a noticeable impact on zvt but come on that is nothing compared to the improvements terran has received with Hots. I would almost just rather have the old infestor back in place of these. Most would say that the old infesor is broken but would it have been broken vs terran with all their new tvz tools? I don't know. Maybe/ maybe not.
How can one argue that tvz is not in terran's favor if you think wol was more balanced than hots (I believe wol was much more balanced just due to the amount of time that went by and popularity of sc2 at the time.
You can argue that new strats will come and counters will be found but if you just look at the facts, it's hard to justify balance in zvt.
ZvT at the end of wings is widely considered the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, I don't know why you are saying it was the most balanced. Multiple months in a row with Zerg over 60% winrate, it is MUCH more balanced now. I think ZvT is at a perfect spot atm. And you didn't even mention the Ultra buff... which was absolutely huge and the reason Terrans try to end the game before they are out, and you didn't mention the muta buff either... which is also big. ZvT at the beginning of WOL is widely considered as the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2. Where even pros after tournaments excused for playing terran and therefore winning tournaments. And even some switched race away from terran not to play the OP race anymore. after this some adjustments: bunker build time, reaper, ..... queen then: ZvT with the infestor/BL deathball was Z sided. after this: infestor nerf, raven buff. then: ZvT at the end of WOL (after inf nerf, after raven buff) was very balanced, just there was not alot of time left in WOL and rebalance takes some time to take effect. So show us now at what point of this graph in 2013 ZvT was balanced. http://aligulac.com/reports/ how about using a source that doesn't record thousands of games from master league players and irrelevant games (such as best of 9 showmatches lol) . "Same as always: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) The parameters I used served to minimize the amount of amateur games and maximize the amount of professional games." http://i.imgur.com/3C5jrBQ.png So what about you, which source is better now? I still say aligulac is shitty, just find it hilarious that all the Zergies are ditching Aligulac for tlpd now, when they held to Aligulac last month. But actual part is that you are completly opposite. You were first one to jump on aligulac results. And can you give the names of "all there zergies" that ditching aligulac. Try to be lease biased next time.
Guess I'm one for inquiring about the difference in stats
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On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL.
So where is it untrue?
How is the efficiency of a Widow Mine NOT DEPENDANT on the opponent not having detection and running into them?
How does the Widow Mine synergize with any other unit?
How can you actively advance and take out units with a Widow Mine unless the enemy doesnt retreat?
Your statement of "I dont know where to begin" is just s stupid phrase which shows that you just disagree without any arguments from your side. Either argue or dont make such claims.
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On August 01 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL. So where is it untrue? How is the efficiency of a Widow Mine NOT DEPENDANT on the opponent not having detection and running into them? How does the Widow Mine synergize with any other unit? How can you actively advance and take out units with a Widow Mine unless the enemy doesnt retreat? Your statement of "I dont know where to begin" is just s stupid phrase which shows that you just disagree without any arguments from your side. Either argue or dont make such claims.
You are wrong and simply not on the level needed to discuss such a matter. The point you make can be applied to the siege tank as well. If your opponent retreats you cant fight because its immobile. But he can only retreat until he has to fight. He will eventually be forced into an engagement. It applies for both, the tank and the widowmine. Your statements about it being luck based and only relies on your opponent are so wrong its not even funny. Mines as already explained are volatile and unreliable, by no means can you base your fights on them. You need to be good with them to make them work and you need to be good at handling them as the defensive player as well
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Northern Ireland25240 Posts
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p
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EPT
