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On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p
amen. the mobility was exclusive to muta ling baneling AND terran using drops and runbys to control zerg army movement while pushing forward with the immobile marine tank, securing parameters.
now it's just 'drop drop drop small pushes action everywhere woohoo'
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
YAY SHIT BLOWS UP FAST!
Sorry, I was continuing from your post Et.
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On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p
I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive.
This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever
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On August 01 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL. So where is it untrue? How is the efficiency of a Widow Mine NOT DEPENDANT on the opponent not having detection and running into them? How does the Widow Mine synergize with any other unit? How can you actively advance and take out units with a Widow Mine unless the enemy doesnt retreat? Your statement of "I dont know where to begin" is just s stupid phrase which shows that you just disagree without any arguments from your side. Either argue or dont make such claims. On August 01 2013 14:03 RampancyTW wrote:]Mine placement is incredibly important in determining their effectiveness. As is mine targeting. They also synergize extremely well with MMM by covering alternate angles of attack and making straight-up overruns of the bio force unfavorable until mine shots have been triggered, allowing the bio units to make full use of their range and DPS advantages. Additionally, the efficiency of the Widow Mine depends not on the opponent screwing up, but on you outplaying your opponent in the Widow Mine dance. Widow Mines can absolutely be used to advance, and are instrumental in allowing small groups of bio units to pick off expansions and the like. Literally not a single sentence of that paragraph was remotely close to being accurate.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever
Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me.
Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game.
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On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game.
If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:47 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game. If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D
Marine/Tank would be your long-standing partner. She knows every inch of you, every nook and cranny of the contours of your body and would generally tease and please you with subtletly and finesse. Even if you didn't orgasm, you'd be happy because of the transcendent experience you had in playing marine-tank making love to her.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video and figured it's what guys like.
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Austria24422 Posts
You must really dislike Sasha Grey.
We should have this discussion for every race and their playstyles btw, just maybe not here.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:51 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You must really dislike Sasha Grey.
We should have this discussion for every race and their playstyles btw, just maybe not here.
I actually quite like her to watch I quite like the violent shit, but she's not exactly big on subtlety.
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Austria24422 Posts
I think Sasha Grey is more like a blink stalker all in. Goes in everywhere.
Alright that's enough derailing, lol.
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I'm surprised Rabiator hasn't made a thread yet to discuss the design of SC2 from a broader perspective.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I think Sasha Grey is more like a blink stalker all in. Goes in everywhere.
Alright that's enough derailing, lol.
Sasha Grey is like the polar opposite of me playing pool. She doesn't choke on the black.
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On August 01 2013 15:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:47 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game. If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D ]Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME' , because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video and figured it's what guys like.
This is why I read TL. Beautiful. Second all the comments about a slower paced tank gaming being gorgeous in its own right. Would note Rab made some kinda myopic comments about storm, fungal and seeker missile a few pages back. Kinda missing the context in which those spells were "easy" and more importantly their relative game changing nature as part of the over all makeup of how the matchups play out.
I vote zerg race discussion because the protoss one always goes to the same place and depresses me. Terran discussion only makes sense with the other races in mind.
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On August 01 2013 15:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:55 DarkLordOlli wrote:
I think Sasha Grey is more like a blink stalker all in. Goes in everywhere.
Alright that's enough derailing, lol. Sasha Grey is like the polar opposite of me playing pool. She doesn't choke on the black.
On the other hand she sinks the white pretty often
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On August 01 2013 15:02 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 13:11 RampancyTW wrote:On August 01 2013 12:53 Rabiator wrote:On August 01 2013 10:55 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 Foxxan wrote:On August 01 2013 09:50 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 09:48 Wombat_NI wrote:
Going back to TvZ. Disregard balance. I just don't like it, for the most part. I don't need placated, or the game changed but that's my perogative.
The fixes that HoTS introduced are literally all to do with speed. Faster medivacs, faster mutilisks, widowmines that can wipe out swathes of Zerglings.
I am with Rabiator on this. Faster does not = dynamic play or skillful, it's just a clusterfuck in so many games to me. Marine-Tank vs Muta/Ling/Bling in the hands of top players was to me so much more engaging to watch. I have my own personal views on the game, and don't expect anything to be altered on my account, but those are my 50 cents. I think most people would agree with you, but they probably also think that biomine vs muta/ling/bling is 100x better to watch then end of wol tvz. I believe the general opinion is that people find bio/mine funnier than marine/tank vs zerg I do, tho my opinion can be utterly false but thats how i see it Why? What's good about it. Good for you being facetious, at least I gave vague reasoning behind my preferences, which I could expand upon if needs be. With siegetanks, you know the outcome much more and i feel its less micro with siegetanks involved(and more boring micro) compared to the wm With wm i feel the outcome is much harder to predict, both can micro alot(and the micro is funnier) to watch and play compared to the sigetank It becomes more improvisation with the wm over the siegetank Widow Mines are just "randomly placed" and dont really require skill to use. It is a weird style, because there is no synergy of the Widow Mine with anything else in the army; they just "kill stuff" and have the potential to do a lot of damage. The bad part is that the efficiency of the Widow Mine DEPENDS on the opponent screwing up. You cant really use them actively to advance while you can do a "slow siege-unsiege advancing" with the tank.If there was a decently strong Siege Tank the whole challenge of breaking that "wall" is the interesting part of the game. That is far more interesting, because it requires actual thought and planning. Compare that to the WM where the "attraction" lies in "stuff moving and exploding". I am no goldfish who has an attention span of 3 seconds and a strategic puzzle / challenge is far more interesting to me than just seeing stuff move and explode. With Siege Tanks you only know the outcome more because the SC2 tank sucks hard and is too weak to even defend against a bunch of Zerglings running at it. The bolded section is so untrue that I don't even know where to begin. It's literally the most inaccurate statement on the unit that I have ever read on TL. So where is it untrue? How is the efficiency of a Widow Mine NOT DEPENDANT on the opponent not having detection and running into them? How does the Widow Mine synergize with any other unit? How can you actively advance and take out units with a Widow Mine unless the enemy doesnt retreat? Your statement of "I dont know where to begin" is just s stupid phrase which shows that you just disagree without any arguments from your side. Either argue or dont make such claims.
I find what you said disagreeable in so many ways.
The efficiency of a widow mine depends on many factors both you and your opponent can control, and on a high degree of luck also. You have to protect your mines to make sure they don't shoot at single zerglings or overlords, by unburrowing them in time and by having marines to kill off small packs of lings trying to set it off. Having detection alone is not enough for a zerg player to engage bio mine, he needs to have good spread and pray you don't target banelings manually with the mines. The widow mine is also highly luck dependant because it is difficult to predict which unit it will target, because the leading lings gets killed so fast in engagements the mines will switch targets very quickly, and the new targets may get killed quickly also... faster than what a human mind can take advantage of.
Secondly, widow mines synergizes well with both bio and mech. Bio is really good at drawing zerg units into mines because they can only either take the damage from the bio and retreat, or try to hit back. Mines don't really need mech upgrades from the armoury, making it useful in bio builds. Mines can be massed from one or two factories very quickly, which has synergy with the easily replaced bio. Mines are easily transported in medivacs... mines move at a comparable speed to bio... mines cost some gas, which allows a bio player to use his gas in an otherwise mineral-heavy composition... the list really just goes on.
Thirdly, the same logic applies to tanks. The point of mines and tanks is to be set up in a position where zerg has to engage or die, like outside their base or natural. TvZ revolves a lot around the zerg preventing the T army from setting up and becoming entrenched in a favourable location. Once you burrow your mines by zerg's third, retreating is not really an option anymore for zerg.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 16:22 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:47 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game. If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D ]Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME' , because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video and figured it's what guys like. This is why I read TL. Beautiful. Second all the comments about a slower paced tank gaming being gorgeous in its own right. Would note Rab made some kinda myopic comments about storm, fungal and seeker missile a few pages back. Kinda missing the context in which those spells were "easy" and more importantly their relative game changing nature as part of the over all makeup of how the matchups play out. I vote zerg race discussion because the protoss one always goes to the same place and depresses me. Terran discussion only makes sense with the other races in mind.
I do my best. Hopefully my pay packet can stretch this month so I can buy TL+ without having to hope that some kind soul donates some :p
Rabiator is so infuriating, he is a mystery. I have actually Pmed him to this effect in the past. I actually agree with him a lot, but he genuinely doesn't seem to enjoy ANYTHING about SC2. His stickability and consistency and lack of flaming are pretty laudable to me, but I don't get why you'd stick with something you so obviously dislike
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On August 01 2013 16:40 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:22 Sabu113 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:47 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game. If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D ]Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME' , because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video and figured it's what guys like. This is why I read TL. Beautiful. Second all the comments about a slower paced tank gaming being gorgeous in its own right. Would note Rab made some kinda myopic comments about storm, fungal and seeker missile a few pages back. Kinda missing the context in which those spells were "easy" and more importantly their relative game changing nature as part of the over all makeup of how the matchups play out. I vote zerg race discussion because the protoss one always goes to the same place and depresses me. Terran discussion only makes sense with the other races in mind. I do my best. Hopefully my pay packet can stretch this month so I can buy TL+ without having to hope that some kind soul donates some :p Rabiator is so infuriating, he is a mystery. I have actually Pmed him to this effect in the past. I actually agree with him a lot, but he genuinely doesn't seem to enjoy ANYTHING about SC2. His stickability and consistency and lack of flaming are pretty laudable to me, but I don't get why you'd stick with something you so obviously dislike
How can you agree with him a lot. The suggestions he writes and statements he makes are blatant insult towards Terran. If he would use any of his brain cells and/or actually try out Terran he would soon find out that widowmines are not dark magic of doom and Terran are all priests that can control them due to blood sacrifice without doing shit. Its hard work and you have stated already that you believe and agree, so how can you agree with "lots" what he writes? Beyond me, sorry.
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Northern Ireland27235 Posts
On August 01 2013 16:49 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:40 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 16:22 Sabu113 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:47 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:33 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 NarutO wrote:On August 01 2013 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
The immobility of marine/tank is part of it's beauty. I for one mourn it's TvZ passing :p I dont disagree but with the new mutalisk higher numbers are sustainable and tank play doesnt allow for early pressure so zergs will either be greedy and destroy you or will end up with an early hive and ultras that crush you. Not to mention in a hectic engagement tanks suck to begin with. In addition you take the viper and terran is raped to shreds. Maybe buff siege/unsiege time and damage vs massive. This would help tvz greatly and tvp as well especially vs colossus but in tvt it could cause troubles if you cannot catch a mech player offguard ever Yeah, it's not good. I can still play it to a Diamond level with my off-race, which is enough for me. Marine/tank is a composition of beauty, of finesse, of positioning. It's not whether it's strong or weak, or trying to make it viable, it should never have been allowed to have been supplanted, it's close to the only functionally positionally interesting composition that was ever a staple of the game. If you compare both styles to women, what would marine/tank be and what would biomine be :D Would biomine still be hit it&quit it? Or not even that? :D ]Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME' , because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video and figured it's what guys like. This is why I read TL. Beautiful. Second all the comments about a slower paced tank gaming being gorgeous in its own right. Would note Rab made some kinda myopic comments about storm, fungal and seeker missile a few pages back. Kinda missing the context in which those spells were "easy" and more importantly their relative game changing nature as part of the over all makeup of how the matchups play out. I vote zerg race discussion because the protoss one always goes to the same place and depresses me. Terran discussion only makes sense with the other races in mind. I do my best. Hopefully my pay packet can stretch this month so I can buy TL+ without having to hope that some kind soul donates some :p Rabiator is so infuriating, he is a mystery. I have actually Pmed him to this effect in the past. I actually agree with him a lot, but he genuinely doesn't seem to enjoy ANYTHING about SC2. His stickability and consistency and lack of flaming are pretty laudable to me, but I don't get why you'd stick with something you so obviously dislike How can you agree with him a lot. The suggestions he writes and statements he makes are blatant insult towards Terran. If he would use any of his brain cells and/or actually try out Terran he would soon find out that widowmines are not dark magic of doom and Terran are all priests that can control them due to blood sacrifice without doing shit. Its hard work and you have stated already that you believe and agree, so how can you agree with "lots" what he writes? Beyond me, sorry.
He has a lot of stuff on the fundamental design of the game that I agree with. As somebody critiquing actual balance, not so much.
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Wtf just happened in this thread?
Anyway he has points regarding fundamental game design, but his walls of text in balance related topics are kinda irritating since he wants to play a completely different game. It could very well be that his ideas would make for a better game, but it will never ever happen. He wants to basicly start from scratch and only keep the artwork.
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On August 01 2013 17:03 Sissors wrote:
Wtf just happened in this thread?
Anyway he has points regarding fundamental game design, but his walls of text in balance related topics are kinda irritating since he wants to play a completely different game. It could very well be that his ideas would make for a better game, but it will never ever happen. He wants to basicly start from scratch and only keep the artwork.
Sc2Bw
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EPT
