Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 626

On July 31 2013 18:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Just to add to this, buffing blinding cloud or vipers in general could become a problem in PvZ. Vipers are already extremely strong against protoss, especially when combined with ultras and a few infestors. HerO vs Jaedong game 2 from IEM highlights it pretty well, HerO had full control of the game and slowed Jaedong down immensely while teching and building the perfect composition against it but he'd have needed another 2 or 3 minutes to be ready to deal with Jaedong's army. That's not to say that the unit composition is too strong or can't be countered etc. but I think making vipers' spells enter the field earlier by say decreasing cost or energy required could mean that zerg can get to that army too fast for protoss to react in time.

I do think more and improved Viper play would be really cool in ZvT though.

On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:

Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well.

Viper

David Kim: When designing Viper, because Protoss and Terran got some strong siege units, so we don't want to give Zerg another siege unit beside swarm host. So we designed viper to break the siege. But currently, Viper is not strong, we are planning to make some changes to it.

On July 31 2013 19:03 Big J wrote:


Not saying that the Viper is overpowered right now, but I could write essays about endgame ZvZs that I won because I used vipers and my opponent didn't (as much), or PvZ lategame, or ZvMech.


Looking at its design:
- can't deal damage so only few of them are useful
- a singletarget spell
- a AoE spell
- comes at Hive without any specific techbuilding needed
- can regenerate energy quickly

I believe the intention was to give zerg a unit for all scenarios (like the WoL infestor) but which doesn't scale up (unlike the WoL infestor) and only works if used with nonviper units (unlike the WoL infestor). Thing is, the AoE ability isn't good against the units that are usually bad against AoE. (and abduct is very, very strong against hightech armies; counterable, but could turn out too strong at least against Protoss as 9range abduct vs 9range feedback favors the more mobile Viper)

On July 31 2013 19:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:


I highly doubt it. The teching to lair and researching burrow takes away from anything else you're doing. It already didn't work against the immortal all in which had a lot less firepower than a 2 immortal/2 colossus all in.

On July 31 2013 19:37 kaluro wrote:


Actually he hasn't.
Wat david kim hás said is that they are looking for ways to alter/buff the swarm host and viper, because they are too easy to deal with nowadays.

On July 31 2013 19:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:


It means that you might have to cut an upgrade or earlier units, etc. to get burrow and burrowed movement which in turn weakens the army you have. And even with +2 armor burrowed, 2 colossi and 2 immortals coupled with an observer and a gateway army will just smack it down.

On July 31 2013 20:00 LSN wrote:
still the issues of TvZ are:

1) Terran basically needs only marines/maurauders/mines/medivacs the entire game, therefore
2) Terran has no adequate use of gas and can stop gathering it at a certain point of time and also doesn't care about losing gas heavy units
3) This unit composition is as well the best in harrassment and normal combat situations, without any extra committments or expenses
4) There is nothing that counters bio but almost everything that counters mech play, therefore
5) Terran doesn't need to transition out of bio/mine play what makes the game as 1-dimensional as a ZvZ roach only or mutalisk only play and equal as interesting to watch
6) Terran doesn't require any use of spell casters in TvZ meta game at any stage of the game. Even tho they have a very strong and in my point of view strongly overpowered TvZ spellcaster, the raven, it seems to not have to be used.

Therefore this matchup can be considered broken all thru in any way you look at it!

- A good balance would include more terran units in the mix to counter certain zerg compositions as it was in broodwar:
Marines better zergling/hydra, Lurkers better Marines, Tanks better lurkers, Air units better Tanks, Wraith/Goliaths better air units, infestor better tanks marines, science vessel better infestor etc.

Do you terran guys see the difference?

A better balance of rock, scissor paper system would force terran to play more INTELLIGENTLY instead of pure massing tier 1 units and finding the right attack/drop timings (what I don't say its easy to play, it doesnt require any big decisionmaking out of the box, its all about doing exactly the same each and every game and can be memorized very well and easily also from lower tier players)


About player/tournament results:
8/10 top tier korean zergs enter frequently international tournaments
2/10 top tier korean terrans enter frequently international tournaments

sure thing korean zergs are more successful in these tournaments, where most terrans do not even compete in.
Additionally many of the terrans get knocked out by protosses in these tournaments.
These things basically don't tell ANYTHING about the real balance issues which has been stated 1) - 6).


In the korean leagues where all of them are bunched together, results are way terran favoured. Soulkey only been winning vs Innovation cause Innovation had sort of one of his repeatedly happening mental breakdowns from a superior position where noone can believe he ever could go down like this: 0:4 vs SoulKey in a row, 0:4 vs maru in a row. Just some kind of mental blocker I guess that falsify stats and results.


Still I like to mention again, that many ZvT wins come from alot of all-ins. These all-ins are basically easy to defend against on prolevel when scouted correctly and adapted correctly. As most terrans in fact don't and are convinced to not have to adapt to anything in the matchup, they lose to these all-ins. I remember flash moving out on 4 base vs a 3 base zerg without scouting watch towers and without having a single mine on the field to die vs 3 base baneling all-in while his army was out of position. This is arrogant play.
Another example: I remember a top tier match where the terran went for hellbat drops into raven tech vs a roach all-in zerg. Instead of cancelling the raven, getting few mines or more tanks, the terran dropped the zerg with hellbats in the main while defending against the roach all-in with only part of his units and finally lost due to this. Its arrogant play.
Its a mindset of terrans "I don't even have to take 100% care of your all-in and I will instead of caring 100% on defense and then being ahead better try to shut down the all-in with only 60% of my units and meanwhiles counter attack you with a drop for the instant win" - thats again arrogant play. Once terran figure out to stop this and do the 100% save style when required vs all-in play (which is of course possible with bunkers, maurauders, mines, tanks etc.) they will win alot of these games in the future that have been won by zergs in the past. The potential here lies only at the terran side of the clash and therefore I expect an improvement of terrans in this exact issue in the future.

On July 31 2013 20:00 LSN wrote:
still the issues of TvZ are:

1) Terran basically needs only marines/maurauders/mines/medivacs the entire game, therefore
2) Terran has no adequate use of gas and can stop gathering it at a certain point of time and also doesn't care about losing gas heavy units
3) This unit composition is as well the best in harrassment and normal combat situations, without any extra committments or expenses
4) There is nothing that counters bio but almost everything that counters mech play, therefore
5) Terran doesn't need to transition out of bio/mine play what makes the game as 1-dimensional as a ZvZ roach only or mutalisk only play and equal as interesting to watch
6) Terran doesn't require any use of spell casters in TvZ meta game at any stage of the game. Even tho they have a very strong and in my point of view strongly overpowered TvZ spellcaster, the raven, it seems to not have to be used.

Therefore this matchup can be considered broken all thru in any way you look at it!

- A good balance would include more terran units in the mix to counter certain zerg compositions as it was in broodwar:
Marines better zergling/hydra, Lurkers better Marines, Tanks better lurkers, Air units better Tanks, Wraith/Goliaths better air units, infestor better tanks marines, science vessel better infestor etc.

Do you terran guys see the difference?

A better balance of rock, scissor paper system would force terran to play more INTELLIGENTLY instead of pure massing tier 1 units and finding the right attack/drop timings (what I don't say its easy to play, it doesnt require any big decisionmaking out of the box, its all about doing exactly the same each and every game and can be memorized very well and easily also from lower tier players)


About player/tournament results:
8/10 top tier korean zergs enter frequently international tournaments
2/10 top tier korean terrans enter frequently international tournaments

sure thing korean zergs are more successful in these tournaments, where most terrans do not even compete in.
Additionally many of the terrans get knocked out by protosses in these tournaments.
These things basically don't tell ANYTHING about the real balance issues which has been stated 1) - 6).


In the korean leagues where all of them are bunched together, results are way terran favoured. Soulkey only been winning vs Innovation cause Innovation had sort of one of his repeatedly happening mental breakdowns from a superior position where noone can believe he ever could go down like this: 0:4 vs SoulKey in a row, 0:4 vs maru in a row. Just some kind of mental blocker I guess that falsify stats and results.


Still I like to mention again, that many ZvT wins come from alot of all-ins. These all-ins are basically easy to defend against on prolevel when scouted correctly and adapted correctly. As most terrans in fact don't and are convinced to not have to adapt to anything in the matchup, they lose to these all-ins. I remember flash moving out on 4 base vs a 3 base zerg without scouting watch towers and without having a single mine on the field to die vs 3 base baneling all-in while his army was out of position. This is arrogant play.
Another example: I remember a top tier match where the terran went for hellbat drops into raven tech vs a roach all-in zerg. Instead of cancelling the raven, getting few mines or more tanks, the terran dropped the zerg with hellbats in the main while defending against the roach all-in with only part of his units and finally lost due to this. Its arrogant play.
Its a mindset of terrans "I don't even have to take 100% care of your all-in and I will instead of caring 100% on defense and then being ahead better try to shut down the all-in with only 60% of my units and meanwhiles counter attack you with a drop for the instant win" - thats again arrogant play. Once terran figure out to stop this and do the 100% save style when required vs all-in play (which is of course possible with bunkers, maurauders, mines, tanks etc.) they will win alot of these games in the future that have been won by zergs in the past. The potential here lies only at the terran side of the clash and therefore I expect an improvement of terrans in this exact issue in the future.

On July 31 2013 20:25 LSN wrote:
First of all, zerg needs to get anything that shuts down bio/mine play successfully which in the counterpart is being shut down by a mech opening.

Obviously this should baneling that shut down bio play and mech that shut down baneling play. The general idea blizzard had was right, its just not working as intended.

My approach would be TRY two things and see how it works out.
1. make mech more powerful and even less mobile
2. make mech more mobile and less powerful

-1 if mech was more powerful but less mobile, it would be easier to split up a mech army to deal with a runby and at the same time go offensive at the same time
-2 if mech was more mobile terrans could switch more easily between offense and defense with mech (just similar to bio) which COULD work out as well


Swarm hosts are bad units, as they help the zerg to keep a position where they have an advantage but don't do anything in a position of disadvantage to help the zerg to come back in any way. High numbers of SH are OP, small numbers of SH dont do anything. Its just bad design.

Vipers shut down mech play way too hard with the cloud. Its just bad design again.

Ravens:
missile kills way too many units missiles at once lol, its strongly op vs basically anything zerg has (mutalisks, ling/bane, roach/hydra, ultralisks clumped with other units, broodlords, corruptors - the missile just kills way too much.
point defense drone is ridiculously strong vs missile attacks in lategame, hydra/corruptor vs terran BC/viking/raven becomes very single sided with the PDD in the mix and also some missiles. No way zerg can win this kind of very endgame at all. This is like 100 times more imbalanced than what broodlord infestor ever was in later WOL.

On July 31 2013 18:35 Foxxan wrote:


They do it 4fun?
And naruto is gonna write his basis soon, cant wait

On July 31 2013 20:40 Qikz wrote:
I personally think that a good change would be to give the hydra a buff vs bio, either that or another major zerg unit that isn't zergling, baneling or muta. This then adds a better counter to bio (rather than just the single ling/bling/muta) and might force some new styles from the terran.

On July 31 2013 19:43 DarkLordOlli wrote:


It means that you might have to cut an upgrade or earlier units, etc. to get burrow and burrowed movement which in turn weakens the army you have. And even with +2 armor burrowed, 2 colossi and 2 immortals coupled with an observer and a gateway army will just smack it down.