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On July 31 2013 15:17 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. I only saw roach/hydra working when timing has been hit perfectly. A.k.a 2-2 timing when terran only started mass production from 3CC. Other than that, roach/hydra suck at harassing and little skirmishes. They're also weak against upgraded bio and mech. Considering how flexible MMM is I don't think there is a much room to discover smth new about roach/hydra. The idea of burrow move was neat, but it will never work since the game has so many detections.
Thats the mindset you don't need to improve. If you believe it cannot be played, don't do it but stop complaining all the time I would suggest. Terran got nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and we had various strategies to our arsenal. We always figured out new ways to play and new compositions. Why cannot a Zerg experiment with unit combinations? Or even the unit mix..
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On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud.
If his army is moving, your army isnt hurting him either though 
Blinding + fungal would be powerful, but absurdly hard to use. If you blinding first, they will be moving bio back and thus miss your fungal (unless you fungal behind the blinding, but they could dodge that too). If you fungal first it could be strong, but terran is usually dodging with the rest of the army so it seems like blinding would be a waste/overkill.
In regards to cloud being powerful if hes in a defensive engagement, how do you get him to that point? He has a mobile army that can hit bases with a single medivac + marines and this is the lategame. Spines stall, but you need at least equal if not greater than his supply in roach/hydra to beat marine/medivac in a small engagement like a drop.
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On July 31 2013 15:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud. If his army is moving, your army isnt hurting him either though Blinding + fungal would be powerful, but absurdly hard to use. If you blinding first, they will be moving bio back and thus miss your fungal (unless you fungal behind the blinding, but they could dodge that too). If you fungal first it could be strong, but terran is usually dodging with the rest of the army so it seems like blinding would be a waste/overkill. In regards to cloud being powerful if hes in a defensive engagement, how do you get him to that point? He has a mobile army that can hit bases with a single medivac + marines and this is the lategame. Spines stall, but you need at least equal if not greater than his supply in roach/hydra to beat marine/medivac in a small engagement like a drop.
I would say first of all you cannot get him into a defensive position if you never try that style to begin with :-)! 'Absurdly hard to use'. Have you ever played Terran? Terran is absurdly hard to use, thats why everyone but good pros struggle with it and the lower levels of good players (grandmaster) are dominated by Protoss over Zerg over Terran. If Terran can manage fights against Protoss HT/Colossus Zergs can manage two spellcasters as well.
Roach/Hydra shines in the earlier stages of the game/midgame, as you can pressure with roaches. The current metagame evolves around mines, and mines are of basically no use against that composition so in that regard, its wasted tech and wasted supply so you will be sitting at 3 base (easily against every Terran) while getting a 4th behind it. While being at the front with roaches (you can retreat, as they are pretty fast) and getting hydras behind. If Terran doesn't bother to find out you are going roach/hydra in the first place, he can have a very bad time.
Usually the reaction would be either bio only , bio and little mines or getting tanks. In addition to that, roach hydra is a very hard combination to read for Terrans. It can look like you power through but in reality hydras have insane DPS so you will lose the fight. If you really lose the fight badly, its hard ot come back, but that also applies to the Roach / Hydra player, you have to know what fights to take and what fights not tot ake. Only reason to gain experience in that field is: TRY IT.
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On July 31 2013 15:38 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:31 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:
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What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it.
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IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning)
Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life.
Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody
Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:
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They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud. If his army is moving, your army isnt hurting him either though Blinding + fungal would be powerful, but absurdly hard to use. If you blinding first, they will be moving bio back and thus miss your fungal (unless you fungal behind the blinding, but they could dodge that too). If you fungal first it could be strong, but terran is usually dodging with the rest of the army so it seems like blinding would be a waste/overkill. In regards to cloud being powerful if hes in a defensive engagement, how do you get him to that point? He has a mobile army that can hit bases with a single medivac + marines and this is the lategame. Spines stall, but you need at least equal if not greater than his supply in roach/hydra to beat marine/medivac in a small engagement like a drop. I would say first of all you cannot get him into a defensive position if you never try that style to begin with :-)! 'Absurdly hard to use'. Have you ever played Terran? Terran is absurdly hard to use, thats why everyone but good pros struggle with it and the lower levels of good players (grandmaster) are dominated by Protoss over Zerg over Terran. If Terran can manage fights against Protoss HT/Colossus Zergs can manage two spellcasters as well. Roach/Hydra shines in the earlier stages of the game/midgame, as you can pressure with roaches. The current metagame evolves around mines, and mines are of basically no use against that composition so in that regard, its wasted tech and wasted supply so you will be sitting at 3 base (easily against every Terran) while getting a 4th behind it. While being at the front with roaches (you can retreat, as they are pretty fast) and getting hydras behind. If Terran doesn't bother to find out you are going roach/hydra in the first place, he can have a very bad time. Usually the reaction would be either bio only , bio and little mines or getting tanks. In addition to that, roach hydra is a very hard combination to read for Terrans. It can look like you power through but in reality hydras have insane DPS so you will lose the fight. If you really lose the fight badly, its hard ot come back, but that also applies to the Roach / Hydra player, you have to know what fights to take and what fights not tot ake. Only reason to gain experience in that field is: TRY IT.
I agree that terran is hard, splitting is hard (I want to play terran a bit more for practice, but whenever I play as T I get matched against T, which is stupidly unfun). But it also isnt managing 2 different spellcasters with your army. I can see it MAYBE being viable, but I would almost rather just use infestors instead of vipers as it feels like that would be just as effective.
In regards to using it more, I just have a hard time using a strategy that has no end game transition. I also just dont think that it is AS good as ling/bling/muta. I mean a lot of pros seemed to be exploring it earlier on but they all transitioned into ling/bling/muta.
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Austria24417 Posts
Are people complaining about using 2 spellcasters now? Really? Protoss uses 2 spellcasters (sentries and HT) every game, 3 if you wanna count the mothership core, 4 if you count blink stalkers. It's doable.
Also I don't agree with the notion that terran control is that much harder. It's a different type of control, mostly mouse based, while protoss is a lot more about hitting spells fast and accurately but also warping in during all that. Both are hard.
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On July 31 2013 16:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Are people complaining about using 2 spellcasters now? Really? Protoss uses 2 spellcasters (sentries and HT), 3 if you wanna count the mothership core, 4 if you count blink stalkers. It's doable.
Way to misunderstand. Lets see you forcefield a donut and storm it at the same time (not forcefield THEN storm) to understand what I mean by 2 casters at the same time. Protoss usually uses casters 1 at a time (and often doesnt even have sentries when storm is used), while the suggestion would need to be using 2 at literally the exact same time to be effective. I am also not complaining, just saying that because of the timing required it would be difficult.
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Austria24417 Posts
On July 31 2013 16:04 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:01 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Are people complaining about using 2 spellcasters now? Really? Protoss uses 2 spellcasters (sentries and HT), 3 if you wanna count the mothership core, 4 if you count blink stalkers. It's doable. Way to misunderstand. Lets see you forcefield a donut and storm it at the same time (not forcefield THEN storm) to understand what I mean by 2 casters at the same time. Protoss usually uses casters 1 at a time (and often doesnt even have sentries when storm is used), while the suggestion would need to be using 2 at literally the exact same time to be effective. I am also not complaining, just saying that because of the timing required it would be difficult.
But that's a pretty useless thought because it's literally impossible to use two at the same time. That's why you go about it in a smart way. You forcefield, then you storm. In case of fungal and blinding cloud, you fungal, then you BC. Otherwise unit AI will help dodge fungal. Simple as that.
As long as you're fast enough you can do both at almost the same time.
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On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals.
That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well.
And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL).
It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming).
And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win.
In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back.
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On July 31 2013 15:22 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:17 saddaromma wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. I only saw roach/hydra working when timing has been hit perfectly. A.k.a 2-2 timing when terran only started mass production from 3CC. Other than that, roach/hydra suck at harassing and little skirmishes. They're also weak against upgraded bio and mech. Considering how flexible MMM is I don't think there is a much room to discover smth new about roach/hydra. The idea of burrow move was neat, but it will never work since the game has so many detections. Thats the mindset you don't need to improve. If you believe it cannot be played, don't do it but stop complaining all the time I would suggest. Terran got nerfed and nerfed and nerfed and we had various strategies to our arsenal. We always figured out new ways to play and new compositions. Why cannot a Zerg experiment with unit combinations? Or even the unit mix..
What combinations are you suggesting?
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On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud.
except that is tonnes of gas that is difficult to get in the current meta
it's already difficult enough to secure the 4th for the gas, how do you ever get so much gas for burrow roach hydra AND upgrades AND infestors AND vipers?
If gas income won't a problem, the zerg could very well win with other composition as well
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On July 31 2013 16:21 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud. except that is tonnes of gas that is difficult to get in the current meta it's already difficult enough to secure the 4th for the gas, how do you ever get so much gas for burrow roach hydra AND upgrades AND infestors AND vipers? If gas income won't a problem, the zerg could very well win with other composition as well
yeah, I have seen almost zero burrow roach in gameplay. blizzard should do something about tunnelling upgrade 
And hydras... have to get two upgrade (or at least the range upgrade) before using them
what happend to you hydra :'(
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On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back.
Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it?
And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true.
I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won.
I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform.
And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow.
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On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow.
I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me.
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On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud.
fungle and blind is very very late game and terrans moving have no dps but nor do zerglings
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On July 31 2013 16:52 Gr33n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 15:21 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 15:10 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:01 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:49 NarutO wrote:
So while I mentioned that Flash and INnoVation are outstanding, especially in Terran vs Zerg it gets completely dismissed. Not that they only excell in this matchup, but in all of them. Furthermore, it seems like you want to turn things around and even call out players like Polt not-notable? While he's a student and not full-time pro right now, I can assure you he still puts time into the game especially before a tournament and clearly was high level to begin with.
Its ridiculous how people compare the current state of Terran vs Zerg to the state it had in Wings of Liberty. Terran was basically unable to win without being superior by a world or two. In tournaments players even doubted the Korean Terrans over foreign Zergs. Zergs did rise on every server and not just at the very top Korean level. As I already explained, something like the WCG qualifier in Korea which was very even would not have happened in WoL ZvT. It would have been utterly domination in the matchup and scores. I pointed out god of the battlefield and it got completely ignored , because it exactly prooves one point. There are players extreme good in one (or multiple) match ups that can reach records others can't. It doesn't make the game imbalanced. While I believe that on the highest level biomine is hard to stop, it certainly takes effort from both sides to make it work, you can argue its not the same effort, but I dare to say it is. I've not seen Zerg do a lot of things, while I can relate to the race not being deep in their design, there's quiet a few things you can do.
Roach/Hydra is basically very unexplored and it deals very well with bio/mine just to name one example. Erm, I actually said that Polt was probably the only notable terran there. And he almost beat Revival. Jetlag + student makes playing difficult. I agree that roach/hydra is good at working against biomine (to a point), but the problem is you cant harass with it, deal with harass that you are taking in, and have a hard time transitioning into the late game because roach/hydra are the only units that benefit from the ranged upgrade. All of the late game tech uses melee upgrades or air upgrades. So you are stuck in a strategy with no real endgame possibilities. Thats only half-true. Roach/Hydra actually deals very well with drops, as you don't need a big part of your army to clear out a drop. If Terran forces an engagement and has 20% of his army in drops somewhere around the map, you can possibly destroy the fight. While Roach/Hydra is also good in a lategame situation. Roach/Hydra/Viper and/or Infestor , this would be lategame and its possible to play like that on the highest level, just that you would need lots of people to first of all do it to gain experience and no one seems to play like that (violet did I think), TLO did vs MVPBang for example etc. I am usually very honest and I'm now as well, so in the past when Terran was too strong on prolevel and it got nerfed, it always was a big fuck you towards the players that are not at the very top, because below that level, Terran was always hard to play and it got even harder. Right now, I am still honest and I simply disagree with the QQ about Terran. What use does the viper play against biomine? I tried it before a long while back and blinding cloud did basically nothing because stimmed bio is so quick. The T didnt have many mines either. Or are you hoping to try and pull medivacs that are out of position? On July 31 2013 15:11 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 15:08 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:58 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. If anything, MMA & SuperNovA are more notable than Life right now... He was / is having a really hard time. Erm, how is he in a slump? vs T he is 6-4 in last 10 (slump for him I suppose) vs Z he is 5-5 (his ZvZ is average, always has been) vs P he is 7-3 Sure, he lost to Sjow recently, but losing 1 series isnt a slump. Losing 2 Bo1's in the RO32 isnt a slump (especially when 1 is fantasy and the other is a great ZvZ player). Just because he isnt DOMINATING EVERYBODY doesnt mean a slump. On July 31 2013 14:46 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 13:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 13:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:29 painkilla wrote:On July 31 2013 07:55 Qikz wrote:
I personally if anything wish they'd just nerf bio slightly so a) it isn't the be all end all strat for Terran and b) opens up more options for the other races.
Bio being as good as it is, is pigeonholing the game into really bad places, especially with mmap design. They shouldn't nerf bio, but they should bring back the lurker or something so Zerg can deal with the marines. Burrow "blink-micro" roaches area hugely annoying to deal with especially when they hit before a critical timing, such as before 2 bases are fully saturated. A T will need all his mules to stay on par with 3 base Z rather than spend on scans repeatedly to kill some roaches. This was brought up before but has been whined "but they have scans and stim by then! Terran bio is too good" Um... Hello, if the roaches are constantly moving burrowed the MMM has no way of moving out in the first place! Turret at the front, medivac drops wreck your day because you have no AA and only slow roaches. Also concerned with how you got lair tech burrow movement roaches and 3 bases while he hasnt moved out and is only on 2. Why are you so fascinated with roaches against terran bio? EDIT: If you think your strats are so amazing, I want to see you execute them. Or find a good zerg to do it for you. They dont seem feasible or even reasonable in theory so I dont get how it can be effective in practice. Thank you for pointing out the holes in this strategy, all of them have limits because otherwise it is IMBALANCED! I'm pointing this outage as well because typical Zerg forget burrow at Hatchery since HotS Beta. It is precisely this kind of entitlement mentality that makes me dislike Zerg only players. You live in your own little world where everyone hates you and it's all biased against you. Well, son, keep that up and soon everyone will. If the entirety of your strategy is shut down by a 75 mineral turret at the front wall, that isnt a solid strategy. Also, burrow is hatchery tech, but burrow MOVEMENT is lair tech Actually I would say a player capable of dominating and doing so in the past, not dominating now and having a harder time.... is a slump. Would at least be my definition of it. But why do you think he is still in a slump? What makes you think his match against Sjow more than a month ago is still impacting him when ritmix happened? Vipers can pull medivacs or blind parts of the army. While it has no huge impact, moving Terran units don't shoot, so its a decrease in their firepower. The real deal starts when the Terran is forced into a defensive engagement so he cannot move out of the cloud easily. Really powerful would be fungal + blinding cloud. fungle and blind is very very late game and terrans moving have no dps but nor do zerglings
Which would still be benefitial for the Zerglings, as they are melee while Bio is ranged and they need to close the gap :p
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On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow.
I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games.
And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have.
You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking.
Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it.
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On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me.
Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being:
Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last
Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being:
Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation.
On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it.
Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group.
I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am.
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On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am.
So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did?
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On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 31 2013 08:34 Wombat_NI wrote:
I actually liked the proposal to bring 3/3 upgrades down from hivetech. It mightn't work, but it's the kind of approach I like to see. That said it might make 3/3 ultra/ling 3 base pushes against Protoss a bit strong
Would that potentially help deal with the transition between ling/bling/muta into ultras that seem to be the stage where Zergs traditionally die to the parade pushing of Innovation and Flash? You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player. Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors? Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass. Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era... Yay the slimy bugs win... Again. Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What? I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:On July 31 2013 07:06 Ghanburighan wrote:
I would just like to point out that after the last 30 or so pages of desperate cries that ZvT is heavily terran favoured, the last major tournament winners have been Hyun (Dreamhack Valencia), Revival (IEM Shanghai) and Life (the very stacked Ritmix RSL V). Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did?
What does it matter that they have 15 games against them?
Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3
Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7
Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10
Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches:
Soulkey -
innovation: 5-7
cure: 1-1
alive: 2-0
labyrinth: 1-2
bbyong: 1-0
fantasy: 1-0
yoda: 2-0
flash: 1-3
maru: 4-2
skyhigh: 1-0
last: 1-3
Life -
Bomber: 4-2
MMA: 3-2
jjakji: 2-0
Kop: 2-0
Supernova: 2-1
Fantasy 0-1
Ryung: 0-1
TheStC: 2-0
MKP: 2-0
Innovation: 0-2
Flash: 6-3
Gumiho: 2-0
Last: 5-2
Byun: 1-0
Maru: 1-0
Polt: 3-2
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On July 31 2013 18:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2013 17:41 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 17:09 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:50 NarutO wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I think SoulKey is the best ZvT in the world. Out of his 30 matches, 14 are vs Flash/INnoVation yet he is at 60%. Life was prodigy in ZvT, but I feel the time has come to proof it once more and as long as that didn't happen, SK seems best to me. Soulkey is 11-7 in matches (20-18 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Innovation, Cure, Labyrinth, Innovation, Flash, Flash, Last Life is 15-3 in matches (35-16 games) against korean terrans in HotS, with his losses being: Fantasy, Ryung, Innovation. On July 31 2013 17:00 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 16:28 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 16:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 31 2013 14:55 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 14:26 keglu wrote:On July 31 2013 13:26 TheRabidDeer wrote:On July 31 2013 12:56 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
[quote]
You. Cannot. Balance. A. Race. Around. A. Player.
Look what happened to T after Blizzard nerfed Thors to the ground after seeing Thorzain crush with mass 3/3 Thors?
Forget balance if Blizzard took posters advice here to adjust the game around the top two Terrans in the world 33% of the player base will leave the game enmass.
Blizzard did it once and it was a disaster 90% loss in ticket attendance after BL/Infestor era...
Yay the slimy bugs win... Again.
Slimy bugs vs slimy bugs... Again
Oh look slimy bug exploded over other slimy bug and he lost? What?
I drove 20 miles to see a 10min ZvZ finals match? Dude this is bullshit. What thor nerf? I dont remember any thor nerfs, so sorry if I missed it. On July 31 2013 13:03 Mattumsfox wrote:
[quote]
Zerg won 3 tournaments in a day. IEM Shanghai, Redbull BGs2 and Ritmix all ended on the 28th of July and zerg won them all. I just don't understand how Zerg can even complain. The race as a whole has won the most tournaments in HOTS. I don't even see how it would be fair to buff the most successful race. Not only that but David Kim even said Zerg is the most successful ladder race as well. IEM Shanghai - no notable terrans were there except maybe polt, who is studying full time and probably had jet lag. Even still he went 2-3 vs revival (so if he beat revival, he stood a good chance at winning) Ritmix - Only notable terran is Bomber, who has his weakest matchup (historically) being TvZ, going against the only zerg with a better than 61% winrate vs terran, Life. Redbull training grounds - 8 player tournament where the 2 terrans lost to just about everybody Dreamhack valencia - Lucifron the only notable terran. Things dont look good when your notable terran is a foreigner vs korean zergs. He also got knocked out early by going against Hyun, who went on to win, while beating Yugioh Thor nerf - giving it energy. Also you have to precise 'notable' since obviously Alive,Center, STC are not. Additionally were there any notable Protoss players in these tournaments? Ah, forgot about that since it was such a shortlived change (started with energy, dropped energy, went back to having energy). And yes, they had notable protoss players. IEM Shanghai had Hero/Oz (maybe MC, not sure if he is still notable). Red Bull Training grounds, eh... iffy. I havent kept track of HuK. Dreamhack Valencia, again kind of iffy... Stardust had his good run and there is JYP (and again, HuK). Ritmix only really had Hero. These tournaments didnt have any huge protoss names though like Parting/squirtle/rain/sOs/yonghwa/first/creator/naniwa/others. Just compare aligulac and youll see that zergs have just had a top player to each tournament Valencia - Hyun won. Who is ranked #3 on aligulac. Next you have Lucifron at #9, then the next player is Stardust at #44 IEM - He did manage to pull an upset against Polt (though the game is close, I didnt watch it so I dont know how he won the series) and Revival was favored against Oz Ritmix - Life won mostly against terrans, whom he specializes at somehow. Though he barely pulled wins against both MMA (#25) and Supernova (#23). Had any other zerg gone I am confident that Bomber would have wont the tournament because MMA wouldve beaten any other zerg, and then Bomber would beat MMA in the finals. That's just absolute rubbish. We need to dismiss every tournament a zerg wins an invalid because terrans didn't win it? Of course the Zerg players are higher ranked on Aligulac because they win tournaments and the terrans don't. That doesn't mean that those terrans are weak, it shows that the race isn't performing well. And it's very disingenuous to consider a tournament with Supernova (Ro8 OSL), MMA (WCG qualifier), Bomber (OSL finalist), TheSTC (multiple tournament winner), Dayshi and Lucifron (top-performing foreign terrans (it's not like there weren't a bunch of foreign zerg there), Polt (just won an MLG against Hyun, now lost to a foreigner Z that doesn't practice due to an injury and Symbol who is struggling in TvZ in the OSL). It's even worse to dismiss Redbull, as the foreigner terrans lost to a bunch of foreigner zergs (and Nestea who has sadly fallen out of Korean pro-gaming). And IEM Shanghai had Polt again (how do you dismiss him if he's one of the few terrans that have won a tournament recently), Alive (a beast of a player). Polt went out to a Z, if TvZ is really so very OP at the top (and a match between Polt and Revival is definitely a top match), then how did Revival win. In conclusion, all of those tournaments show that zerg can and does compete at the highest level, and is slowly but surely becoming the most successful race in HotS. This shows that the people begging for terran nerfs do not have a case, and if they continue to cherry-pick data, it only shows that they want terran nerfed so that they can get their BS WoL TvZ winrate back. Where am I saying that the tournaments need to be dismissed? My entire discussion is about ZvT, and if the tournament has no notable terrans then I have nothing to discuss. I have no opinion about ZvP and am unsure of the state of ZvP, so how can you expect me to consider it? And Aligulac is based on who wins vs who, not on tournament wins. So your argument that they are higher because they win tournaments is also not true. I didnt dismiss ritmix either. I just stated that it was Life being Life. Do I need to again say that he is the only zerg that is above a 61% winrate against korean terrans? And that somehow he is at ~82%? So you put the ABSOLUTE BEST ZvT player in the world against 2 terrans that are weakest against zerg and one TvZ player (MMA) and it should be obvious that Life wins it. Put ANY OTHER zerg in there, and Bomber wouldve won. I dismissed redbull because the terrans lost to the protoss and the zergs. They just didnt perform. And with IEM shanghai, again, I didnt dismiss polt. I even called it an upset. A close series, but seeing as how I didnt see it... I cant really comment on it. What did revival do to win? What did Polt do to lose? Were they roach/bane allins? Did Polt miss scouting things? Did Revival play like an allstar and have a great day while Polt had a bad day? What happened? If you have a link to the matches, I will watch them tomorrow. I thought it would be obvious that to win tournaments you have to win some games. And Aligulac collects those games. And you are still dismissing those tournaments - and, more importantly, a whole lot of good terrans - for no good reason. The tournaments had a number of notable terrans in them (see the previous post), yes, they did not perform. If the race were OP, they should have. You cannot just remove game after game and say that based on games X and Y where I decide that the players played well enough, the race is OP. But all the counter-examples can be dismissed. That's called cherry-picking. Also, the best TvZ has gone to Soulkey for a while now. I love Life, but Soulkey is better and has the results to prove it. Yes, you do gain points by winning tournaments. But if you go through a subpar group of people to get to the finals, you gain less points than the other person that went through a harder group. I am not dismissing the other terrans. I am looking at the brackets and who the winner (which is what you are disputing) faced along the way to get there. I have not dismissed any games/tournaments except redbull. I dont get why you keep thinking that I am. So you don't want to realize that SoulKey met INnoVation / Flash 15 times? He has the way more impressive opponents... just take a look at it. You cannot base everything on the numbers themselves. Do you really believe Lifes statistics would look the same when he would meet INnoVation and Flash in the quantitiy SoulKey did? What does it matter that they have 15 games against them? Life is 6-3 against flash compared to Soulkey's 1-3 Life is 0-2 against innovation compared to Soulkeys 5-7 Life has 11 games against flash/innovation compared to soulkeys 16, and he actually has a winning record against one of them. Life is 6-5 against both combined and Soulkey is 6-10 Here is the full match history, many of the terrans that life has gone against are no slouches: Soulkey - innovation: 5-7 cure: 1-1 alive: 2-0 labyrinth: 1-2 bbyong: 1-0 fantasy: 1-0 yoda: 2-0 flash: 1-3 maru: 4-2 skyhigh: 1-0 last: 1-3 Life - Bomber: 4-2 MMA: 3-2 jjakji: 2-0 Kop: 2-0 Supernova: 2-1 Fantasy 0-1 Ryung: 0-1 TheStC: 2-0 MKP: 2-0 Innovation: 0-2 Flash: 6-3 Gumiho: 2-0 Last: 5-2 Byun: 1-0 Maru: 1-0 Polt: 3-2
As I said you simply look into the statistics, with no thought behind it. The general opinion right now is SoulKey is the best ZvT player in the world. If you like it or not. I could go into detail, but its just tiring to discuss with someone who would simply ignore the points you make.
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