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On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute.
I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror.
For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements.
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It also has absolutely horrible design choices which 3 years down the track still haven't been fixed. The excuse of 'this is the best there is' really doesn't hold water when other companies are doing right by there fan base and succeeding. The starcraft 2 franchise has gone from breaking 150k+ concurrent viewers, and I believe even 200k+ down to 20k. There is legitimate concerns to be had over the game, and while I don't agree with mechanical skill being necessary a whole heap of other things need to be addressed.
You cannot compare the BW esport scene with the SC2 esport scene. Things has changed a lot in terms of viewership.
@Bleakill I don't get what is 'modern' about deathballs and large-scale engagements ending in the blink of an eye.
By all means UI alterations, certain mechanics being more automated etc. 'Terrible terrible damage' is not antiquated, not modern but it's a conscious design decision that has nothing to do with time or how other games play.
My "modern" reference goes mainly in the ui direction like pathing, worker ai or unit selection.
Sure Blizzard did some questionable and stupid things like gold minerals, Protoss design which limits the maps a lot but I just feel that it is wrong to blame SC2 (and his balance) for design decisions that are made on purpose.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements.
One does not simply.... message TheDwf.
Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me.
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On July 30 2013 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. One does not simply.... message TheDwf. Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me.
I think its tinfoil hat-ish, but what would you buff the tank against? Only change I could think of, would buff it against massive units, so it can also deal damage to the ultralisk, while saying that, I have to mention that any buff regarding cost, supply and/or damage would greatly increase to difficulty of winning against mech in TvT for example.
I feel that is the reason why they don't change it. If 5 - 6 tanks left home can shred a full bio army to pieces ... you don't want that :D
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On July 30 2013 17:18 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 13:22 Rabiator wrote:On July 30 2013 12:39 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 29 2013 18:38 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 29 2013 18:17 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:
[quote]
The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. I thought that was gold league and below... I'm diamond, the game absolutely should not be balanced around my <100 APM and random BO's where I forget stuff all the time. By that logic, grenades should be removed and the need to reload be removed in team vs team FPS because I forget stuff all the time too. Or when I lose my queen because I didn't see the knight coming because I was too engrossed about protecting my pawn. There should be a cut off for skill groups around to balance for consideration. I feel balancing the game from diamond and up is fair. Edit: clarity The problem with Blizzards design concept for SC2 is that they make using units VERY EASY. Smartcast and unlimited unit selection make things rather easy to use. As a consequence there isnt the potential to "use units better than your opponent". The general mechanics - unlimited unit selection and tight movement - rather turn the whole thing around because they require players to be able to use a unit ability to make a unit balanced. Stalkers without Blink and/or Forcefield are as good as dead, because both Marines and Zerglings will kill them easily. Balancing the game for anyone other than the lowest levels does mean you are selling an imbalanced game. That is kinda behaving like an arrogant asshole IMO, because you declare the lowest level players not worthy of consideration. The skill increase for higher level players should come from them being able to use units better and to implement this you need to make using units HARD instead of EASY. That is the reason why BW is better than SC2 ... using units was hard, although it probably wasnt intentional. To make SC2 truly great they need to add some limitations which make using units rather hard ... force unit spreading while moving BUT including micro ability to clump them up is one way and a unit selection limit is another part and the removal of smartcast (for all or only some spells) would be a third option. A big part of why SC2 is really badly designed is the tight unit movement which concentrates firepower and thus maximizes dps and minimizes the reaction time of the defender. This is done on purpose, because Blizzard thinks that "more deaths = more action = better game" ... which isnt the case. A low reaction time is a good thing for an action shooter, but it is a terrible thing for a strategy game where planning should be more important than pure reflexes. I don´t get the point of "Harder to use = better" (and i´m ignoring the fact that you just can not sell a game in 2013 with limited unit selection). Look at Chess, it has no mechanical "skill" required at all. Its just unfair to blame Blizzard that SC2 is badly designed because of things they never wanted to do. They didn't want to make a BW remake, they wanted to speed SC up, modernize it and bring it to modern game standards. And to be honest they succeeded SC2 is not perfect (as BW wasn´t perfect) and maybe not anybody's taste but still a very good RTS game if not the best in modern times.
You dont understand it and bring the perfect STRATEGY game as an example ... and then go on and defend Blizzard? The whole point is that SPEED is good for ACTION games but not STRATEGY games. This "speeding up" is the reason why REACTION TIMES are getting ridiculously low, where the defender is screwed if he doesnt do the right thing in half a second. That isnt "the attacker being skillful" but rather "the attacker being lucky that the defender didnt react in time". PLAYER SKILL is something completely different!!!
For a good strategy game you need to provide units and unit mechanics which allow a unit to be used in "basic" and in "advanced" mode, but due to the ez-mode-handling (unlimited unit selection and super tight unit movement) Blizzard has taken out two of the options which would separate the "noobs" from the "pros" in BW and they have put every unit on "auto-advanced mode". That is a terrible design decision especially if you have some units - like the blink Stalker - who arent in "auto-advanced mode" and still require blink and/or Forcefield for the unit to be worthwile.
A good strategy game should also not be as much about reflexes and clicking speed as SC2 is. A good and active brain should be able to win against nimble fingers ... it is a STRATEGY game and NOT AN ACTION game ...
Blizzard is to be blamed fully for this, because the reason for it is their "vision" and their lack of quality control which checks if their decisions are actually good or bad. Too many people have explained the faults of SC2 already, but they are drowned by the sea of lazy and whining kids who dont want to learn to play with 12 units per control group or how to clump up 24 Mutalisks into a tight ball if the game doesnt do it for them.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On July 30 2013 17:53 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. One does not simply.... message TheDwf. Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me. I think its tinfoil hat-ish, but what would you buff the tank against? Only change I could think of, would buff it against massive units, so it can also deal damage to the ultralisk, while saying that, I have to mention that any buff regarding cost, supply and/or damage would greatly increase to difficulty of winning against mech in TvT for example. I feel that is the reason why they don't change it. If 5 - 6 tanks left home can shred a full bio army to pieces ... you don't want that :D
It's the continual adding of units such as vipers that have the potential to completely shut down tank-based play. Not soft-counter, but properly crush it. Or going back to WoL, the Immortal. Or how the Warhound functioned when it came out.
Plus quotes on them not liking siege-tanks particularly 
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On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:18 Rhaegal wrote:
Weird. Didn't see any Zergs post in here when Life 4-2'd Bomber, or Revival 3-2'd Polt, or Byul 2-0'd Major...
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc.
This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On July 30 2013 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:18 Rhaegal wrote:
Weird. Didn't see any Zergs post in here when Life 4-2'd Bomber, or Revival 3-2'd Polt, or Byul 2-0'd Major...
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc. This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help.
Marines in BW don't auto-clump and they spread out, so their DPS potential is much, much less.
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On July 30 2013 17:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:18 Rhaegal wrote:
Weird. Didn't see any Zergs post in here when Life 4-2'd Bomber, or Revival 3-2'd Polt, or Byul 2-0'd Major...
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc. This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help. Marines in BW don't auto-clump and they spread out, so their DPS potential is much, much less.
Doesn't matter, the result is similar. Marine Medic Firebat kills Gateway units very very easy. The same in TvZ. The main difference with SC2 is the Marauder that gives Terran the ability to "eat" AOE while mentaining mobility.
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On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements.
wait. is that the real one?
did i really beat life? please tell me it is, i would be so fucking proud.
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On July 30 2013 17:53 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. One does not simply.... message TheDwf. Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me. I think its tinfoil hat-ish, but what would you buff the tank against? Only change I could think of, would buff it against massive units, so it can also deal damage to the ultralisk, while saying that, I have to mention that any buff regarding cost, supply and/or damage would greatly increase to difficulty of winning against mech in TvT for example. I feel that is the reason why they don't change it. If 5 - 6 tanks left home can shred a full bio army to pieces ... you don't want that :D
Try a flat 50 or even 70 damage instead of the lousy "35 against anything non-armored". The core point to start is to look at the really TINY core radius of the splash attack and you will notice that it covers only 3-4 Zerglings. It shouldnt be possible to just charge a bunch of sieged tanks with Zerglings (and yet it does work), because there are a lot of other weapons in the Zerg arsenal and they should be a "requirement" to break such an entrenched position. What the hell is the point of Abduct or Blinding Cloud or Infested Terran (used as a decoy or a "shoot your own tanks device") otherwise? Zerg doesnt really need these things against mech / Siege Tanks and that is wrong!
Siege Tanks are pretty much useless against Protoss because of that lousy damage output against non-light and the size / hp+shields of the Zealots, which is several times larger than that of a Zergling and possibly even has charge.
To be able to work well against Zerg the Siege Tank should kill Zerglings in the primary AND secondary radius, thus I would say 70 damage (secondary radius is 50% damage) would be ok. The point is that you shouldnt have your Siege Tanks in one spot to protect against runbys ... since there isnt any static defense against ground (PF doesnt work to protect your production for example). Even though it is a large jump upwards I would say it is ok, because the Siege Tank still deals friendly fire and people could just learn to abuse that ...
Apart from increasing the damage significantly I would only see a complete revamp of the general mechanics (unit selection limit, forced unit spreading, removal of unit production boosts, removal of economic boosts) to get to a "BW unit army size and density level" ... and that is really unlikely to be happening as long as DB and DK are at the helm of SC2 design and development. As long as those two are there any "improvements" to the tank wont be happening anyways since they rather hate static mech play as DK said in his interview with Apollo.
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On July 30 2013 18:11 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. wait. is that the real one? did i really beat life? please tell me it is, i would be so fucking proud.
He's not, but he has still very good macro games.
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On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now.
I agree with you, and recently I went from playing terran back to zerg and it's almost frustrating not having a unit designed as well as the widow mine. Instead zerg got the swarmhost, which is either useless or boring as shit to play with and win.
That said, I feel the widow mine does give possibilities to extremely early 3cc play which snowballs exceptionally well, though I'd want to wait for the possibility of another drg or life to float up and show how to deal with it.
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On July 30 2013 18:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:53 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. One does not simply.... message TheDwf. Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me. I think its tinfoil hat-ish, but what would you buff the tank against? Only change I could think of, would buff it against massive units, so it can also deal damage to the ultralisk, while saying that, I have to mention that any buff regarding cost, supply and/or damage would greatly increase to difficulty of winning against mech in TvT for example. I feel that is the reason why they don't change it. If 5 - 6 tanks left home can shred a full bio army to pieces ... you don't want that :D Try a flat 50 or even 70 damage instead of the lousy "35 against anything non-armored". The core point to start is to look at the really TINY core radius of the splash attack and you will notice that it covers only 3-4 Zerglings. It shouldnt be possible to just charge a bunch of sieged tanks with Zerglings (and yet it does work), because there are a lot of other weapons in the Zerg arsenal and they should be a "requirement" to break such an entrenched position. What the hell is the point of Abduct or Blinding Cloud or Infested Terran (used as a decoy or a "shoot your own tanks device") otherwise? Zerg doesnt really need these things against mech / Siege Tanks and that is wrong! Siege Tanks are pretty much useless against Protoss because of that lousy damage output against non-light and the size / hp+shields of the Zealots, which is several times larger than that of a Zergling and possibly even has charge. To be able to work well against Zerg the Siege Tank should kill Zerglings in the primary AND secondary radius, thus I would say 70 damage (secondary radius is 50% damage) would be ok. The point is that you shouldnt have your Siege Tanks in one spot to protect against runbys ... since there isnt any static defense against ground (PF doesnt work to protect your production for example). Even though it is a large jump upwards I would say it is ok, because the Siege Tank still deals friendly fire and people could just learn to abuse that ... Apart from increasing the damage significantly I would only see a complete revamp of the general mechanics (unit selection limit, forced unit spreading, removal of unit production boosts, removal of economic boosts) to get to a "BW unit army size and density level" ... and that is really unlikely to be happening as long as DB and DK are at the helm of SC2 design and development. As long as those two are there any "improvements" to the tank wont be happening anyways since they rather hate static mech play as DK said in his interview with Apollo.
TvT just went to shit with your suggestion. Just to put what you said into context, you realize 70 flat would mean higher damage output than +3 tanks from the start and against anything, right? TvT either tank allin or mech unstoppable, bullshit suggestion. You need to look at all match ups, not just at the one you desire the tank would be better.
The tank is very good in TvT and dangerous at that, if you buff his damage by that much, might as well make him shoot a nuke-_-
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On July 30 2013 18:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:53 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. I would love to play Marine/Tank. Truth is you can't. Its good in the current metagame as it destroyes roach/bane but once you face a muta/ling/bane guy, he will shred you to pieces. You lack mobility and while that in itself wasn't the problem in WoL, it is in hots. Mutalisks are faster and regenerate faster, so you can sustain high numbers and defending your base is pretty much horror. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. One does not simply.... message TheDwf. Oh I agree entirely, I am more bemoaning the mine replacing the humble siege tank. Blizzard seem to hate tanks, I know it seems a bit silly/tinfoil hat-ish to mention it, but it seems pretty clear to me. I think its tinfoil hat-ish, but what would you buff the tank against? Only change I could think of, would buff it against massive units, so it can also deal damage to the ultralisk, while saying that, I have to mention that any buff regarding cost, supply and/or damage would greatly increase to difficulty of winning against mech in TvT for example. I feel that is the reason why they don't change it. If 5 - 6 tanks left home can shred a full bio army to pieces ... you don't want that :D Try a flat 50 or even 70 damage instead of the lousy "35 against anything non-armored". The core point to start is to look at the really TINY core radius of the splash attack and you will notice that it covers only 3-4 Zerglings. It shouldnt be possible to just charge a bunch of sieged tanks with Zerglings (and yet it does work), because there are a lot of other weapons in the Zerg arsenal and they should be a "requirement" to break such an entrenched position. What the hell is the point of Abduct or Blinding Cloud or Infested Terran (used as a decoy or a "shoot your own tanks device") otherwise? Zerg doesnt really need these things against mech / Siege Tanks and that is wrong! Siege Tanks are pretty much useless against Protoss because of that lousy damage output against non-light and the size / hp+shields of the Zealots, which is several times larger than that of a Zergling and possibly even has charge. To be able to work well against Zerg the Siege Tank should kill Zerglings in the primary AND secondary radius, thus I would say 70 damage (secondary radius is 50% damage) would be ok. The point is that you shouldnt have your Siege Tanks in one spot to protect against runbys ... since there isnt any static defense against ground (PF doesnt work to protect your production for example). Even though it is a large jump upwards I would say it is ok, because the Siege Tank still deals friendly fire and people could just learn to abuse that ... Apart from increasing the damage significantly I would only see a complete revamp of the general mechanics (unit selection limit, forced unit spreading, removal of unit production boosts, removal of economic boosts) to get to a "BW unit army size and density level" ... and that is really unlikely to be happening as long as DB and DK are at the helm of SC2 design and development. As long as those two are there any "improvements" to the tank wont be happening anyways since they rather hate static mech play as DK said in his interview with Apollo.
I really really really disagree with the assessment that the ui etc needs to be scaled back to improve the game. So many of the problems in sc2 have got more to do with the design of each race over how many units you can select. Though I would like to see a game without inject mules or chrono boost.
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On July 30 2013 18:17 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 18:11 willstertben wrote:On July 30 2013 17:46 NarutO wrote:On July 30 2013 17:42 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:38 NarutO wrote:
I for my part can only name two 'balance breaking' people in Terran vs Zerg. INnoVation and Flash. They use biomine very well, but the statement at the very top, that the mine is the new infestor? Don't be ridiculous. Go and point out good Terrans with biomine outside of Korea? I mean excellent biomine Terrans? I can't, I doubt you can.
If you saw Lucifron struggle with it even with an insane advantage you know its hard to use. I can point out 'hundrets' (if there even are) of pro Terrans below highest level that don't even come close to dominate with biomine, not to mention they splash their own units. Best example of a debacle mine would be forGG blowing up all his medivacs. The mine in itself, while possibly needing a tweak is a completely perfect designed unit. It increases engagement difficulty for both sides. The Terran cannot simply rely on having lucky hits, but would need to micro and switch targets to get good hits as he will lack 'fighting supply' (mines are 2 supply) and the Zerg has to minimize or nullify the mines. Both actions require micro and awareness, the mine can be powerful in hands of someone very skilled with or useles or even devastating towards the Terran.
Zergs can engage from multiple angles, especially in defensive stances or spread out which makes it harder to get good mine connections, but instead of actually working something out, we see a lot of complaints. I can still remember the Infestor/Broodlord time, when Terrans tried 3-4 month to get into another style, try other unit combinations and approaches of the game to no effect in the end, because infestor/broodlord was - in the stages of the game you could get it because you were basically untouchable - nearly impossible to counter, because you could never fight it cost efficient.
Outside of Air-TErran or mass-raven support there was no answer and the very lategame army couldn't be achieved because you had to constantly put aggression to at least slow Zerg down. Also, Broodlord / Infestor was relatively easy to control to begin with, so it allowed way inferior players to beat better ones once reaching that stage.
Biomine starts off relatively slow (especially the parade push in INnoVations Style) so you could detonate and kill mines before they reach a really threatening mass. I am Terran so all I say will be dismissed as bullshit, but I believe the mine in itself is not overpowered, but a well designed unit that could use a bit of tweaking at best. Zergs need to figure out better ways to engage because there's the chance for it, it just wasn't neccessary before now. Nah that's a pretty reasonable assessment. Marine/Tank I prefer over Biomine play, I just enjoyed that style. I don't really like the lack of control over mines, detonations seem a bit too volatile when the critical mass gets hit (i.e Zergs can't pull single-lings to force detonations with reliable results). I don't know, I personally hate bio/mine, but I do know it's hard to execute. For absolute insane minedodges, write TheDwf a message and let him show you his game vs STLife on EU, that kid is madness in anti-mine engagements. wait. is that the real one? did i really beat life? please tell me it is, i would be so fucking proud. He's not, but he has still very good macro games.
awwwww
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On July 30 2013 18:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 17:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:18 Rhaegal wrote:
Weird. Didn't see any Zergs post in here when Life 4-2'd Bomber, or Revival 3-2'd Polt, or Byul 2-0'd Major...
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc. This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help. Marines in BW don't auto-clump and they spread out, so their DPS potential is much, much less. Doesn't matter, the result is similar. Marine Medic Firebat kills Gateway units very very easy. The same in TvZ. The main difference with SC2 is the Marauder that gives Terran the ability to "eat" AOE while mentaining mobility.
Perhaps, I'm not a BW expert by any means.
That said, the 'garbage' gateway units in SC2 have actually pretty comparable stats to their BW equivalents iirc. Why they get murdered is due to how the pathing is different. In a similar fashion, a Brood War reaver ported directly into SC2 would absolute annihilate bio units. SC2 storm is also weaker than it's BW equivalent as a tacit admission that the pathing and clumping alters the dynamic between units just as much as their stat values do.
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On July 30 2013 18:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 18:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc. This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help. Marines in BW don't auto-clump and they spread out, so their DPS potential is much, much less. Doesn't matter, the result is similar. Marine Medic Firebat kills Gateway units very very easy. The same in TvZ. The main difference with SC2 is the Marauder that gives Terran the ability to "eat" AOE while mentaining mobility. Perhaps, I'm not a BW expert by any means. That said, the 'garbage' gateway units in SC2 have actually pretty comparable stats to their BW equivalents iirc. Why they get murdered is due to how the pathing is different. In a similar fashion, a Brood War reaver ported directly into SC2 would absolute annihilate bio units. SC2 storm is also weaker than it's BW equivalent as a tacit admission that the pathing and clumping alters the dynamic between units just as much as their stat values do.
Sure, changes have been made to the AOE to balance the perfect pathing. The point was that the basic Marine + heal was only really countered by AOE in BW like it is in SC2. Many people have "identified" the marine as the problem and it is incorrect. The marine is actually a very good designed uni, lots of dps, micro potential, but with massive weakness to AOE. It's the existence of the Marauder and the nature of the AOE (Colossus, FG) that are so ... problematic.
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On July 30 2013 18:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 18:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 17:58 Sapphire.lux wrote:On July 30 2013 17:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 16:45 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 16:32 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 30 2013 14:40 bo1b wrote:On July 30 2013 14:31 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 14:24 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
The only one of them which should raise eyebrows is polt v revival. Even that's iffy. Byul vs foreigner, and bomber vs his worst matchup. Multiple people in this thread have claimed that TvZ is "heavily" Terran favored. They're exaggerating a bit, but that still doesn't mean major should beat byul lol. That's what I've been saying the whole time, balance should not be about ratios or statistics, but actual responses to counter an action, e.g. Knight first moves have specific counters if you spot them early enough. Same, mass ling/bling should have counters for them if early enough both mechanically and compositionally. People have been saying that 4m counters way too much, and doesn't really have a counter at all. Which is what a lot of the balance complaints are coming from. So much of the game's issues that people complain about have their roots elsewhere. Fast, microable units that out-DPS everything in the game pretty much and get healed. They have the capacity to outperform the other races counterparts to massive degrees if they're controlled well, so hence Protoss need an AoE unit of doom like the Collosus, Zerg needed the ridiculous WoL-era fungal etc. This was the same in BW and BW didn't have the problems SC2 has. For protoss the problem is the Force field and WP, not Marines. Also the Colossus design as a 1a deathball unit doesn't help. Marines in BW don't auto-clump and they spread out, so their DPS potential is much, much less. Doesn't matter, the result is similar. Marine Medic Firebat kills Gateway units very very easy. The same in TvZ. The main difference with SC2 is the Marauder that gives Terran the ability to "eat" AOE while mentaining mobility. Perhaps, I'm not a BW expert by any means. That said, the 'garbage' gateway units in SC2 have actually pretty comparable stats to their BW equivalents iirc. Why they get murdered is due to how the pathing is different. In a similar fashion, a Brood War reaver ported directly into SC2 would absolute annihilate bio units. SC2 storm is also weaker than it's BW equivalent as a tacit admission that the pathing and clumping alters the dynamic between units just as much as their stat values do.
yeah basically this. gateway units is melee + ranged, roach ling is melee + ranged while MM is both ranged and therefore awesome in terms of DPS per area especially in chokes etc. the better marine in SC2 (think its +15hp compared to BW?!) and the introducement of the marauder completely overshadow tank based play with the new more mobile, faster sieging and air hitting WM "tank".
as for giving tanks 70 flat damage...lol. TvT would be horrible, roach hydra or SHs or infestors would be seen even less...like no more ever and those comps already suck, so ling bane muta once again + 70 flat damage wouldnt make marine tank a single bit better vs ling bane muta but exactly do the opposite and make already UP comps even more UP and force Z even more into mutas. what they really need to do is just give the tank +shield damage so it doesnt affect TvZ and TvT but helps mech TvP and then they need to help mech in TvZ in another way while buffing comps like roach hydra, ling infestor and SHs + support vs MMMM. so basically buff mech TvP and TvZ (but in different ways) and give Z more viable lairtech comps vs MMMM.
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EPT
