On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote: People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid?
I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue.
But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss)
and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D)
I sort of stopped reading at the point where he said WoL was a better game...
this is a matter of opinion and some people (including me) genuinely think WOL was a better game. everything people hated about wol (50 min turtle fest, deathballs, strength of allins, coinflip factor, bad balance) is still there and in most cases even worse.
really don't understand why anyone would think hots is better, but i'll try to respect your opinion, cause in the end that's what it's about when discussing what's a better game.
I like HOTS more because it seems like it rewards the better, more mechanically gifted player.
explain to me why hyun and jaedong aren't crushing everyone then. and why life lost to sjow.
i hope you guys realize though that there is no basis other than opinion to argue which game is better? there will never be a conclusion. if you really want to argue with me though i can keep going and tell you why you are wrong.
: )
Compared to Wings, foreigners win much less vs Koreans than they do in HOTS. Wings was so bad that some foreign Zergs would actually be the favorite to win vs Korean Terrans.
I don't know how citing 1 example proves anything...
And Jaedong has phenomenal ZvT and ZvZ. Mechanics can't carry you as much in ZvP, and Jaedong doesn't seem to understand how the matchup is played and makes god awful decisions. Hyun is one of the best players in the world.. so don't know what you're trying to say.
On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote: People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid?
I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue.
But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss)
and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D)
I sort of stopped reading at the point where he said WoL was a better game...
this is a matter of opinion and some people (including me) genuinely think WOL was a better game. everything people hated about wol (50 min turtle fest, deathballs, strength of allins, coinflip factor, bad balance) is still there and in most cases even worse.
really don't understand why anyone would think hots is better, but i'll try to respect your opinion, cause in the end that's what it's about when discussing what's a better game.
I like HOTS more because it seems like it rewards the better, more mechanically gifted player.
explain to me why hyun and jaedong aren't crushing everyone then. and why life lost to sjow.
i hope you guys realize though that there is no basis other than opinion to argue which game is better? there will never be a conclusion. if you really want to argue with me though i can keep going and tell you why you are wrong.
: )
Compared to Wings, foreigners win much less vs Koreans than they do in HOTS. Wings was so bad that some foreign Zergs would actually be the favorite to win vs Korean Terrans.
I don't know how citing 1 example proves anything...
And Jaedong has phenomenal ZvT and ZvZ. Mechanics can't carry you as much in ZvP, and Jaedong doesn't seem to understand how the matchup is played and makes god awful decisions. Hyun is one of the best players in the world.. so don't know what you're trying to say.
foreigner vs koreans: stephano. scarlett. both pretty much don't play anymore so they can't continue what they did before. also why is it so wrong that some top end foreigners should be favorites vs low tier koreans? some of them still are/should be.
also balance isn't all that i said, personally i still think hots balance is as bad as wol but that's a whole other argument.
but you're right, i'm arguing WOL vs HOTS just to kill time. as i've said i think that's all based on opinion and there is no definitive right/wrong answer.
stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
On July 29 2013 23:19 Rabiator wrote: In general any "l2p" comments - such as the one made by blade55555 - in a balance thread are rather terrible, because that just means the game is NOT balanced for low level players ... and that should never be the case. His claim that the game is balanced for lowbies if it is balanced for pros is rather ignorant, because it totally ignores the change of power of a unit - such as the Oracle - when it is faced with longer reaction time. At that level of play such units usually become rather OP, but it isnt only limited to certain unity but also the big clumpy deathball allows an attacker to win more easily than a defender, because usually attacking requires far less effort than defending. It needs to be the other way round for "skill at using units" to have a meaning.
Personally I would say that for low level players the game becomes more and more coinflip game because the potentially super efficient harrassment units like the Oracle cant be defended against that easily if your response time is high. From a mathematical standpoint it is "balanced" but that isnt really the case, because it isnt a strategy game anymore and rather more dependant upon luck and "drawing the gun first".
I usually disagree with Rabiator, but I agree with this.
Just take example of Marines and Marauders vs. Zerglings and Banelings. At top level, you see constant battles with units like these, players with better micro, splitting and engagements wins. Now, take a look at the lower levels(bronze, silver, gold). Players barely micro there, and Banelings are obvious winners, since they eat clumped units for breakfast, especially Marines, their favorite food. If Terran player has to improve his play from Silver to Gold or Platinum level to be able to beat Silver league Zerg, I don't see better indication of imbalance at lower levels.
or a silver player not scouting cloak banshee and losing the game or not scouting mass BF helions or not scouting DTs or dying to a move colossus or storm or mass tanks. every race has those OP stuff at lower levels so it evens out. if you would want to take away the stuff thats OP on low level you would have to basically remove all AoE and cloak/burrowed stuff since thats the real problem for low level players since those are the units that require special micro against, good scouting and positioning etc.
It is true that there are more stuff, my point is that it doesn't even out... Defending Cloak Banshees or DTs can be done by blindly making Turrets/Spores/Cannons, they are lower level players, they don't play greedy, they actually play a lot safer than top players. But on the other hand, defending from Banelings on the open field is impossible without good micro, or lucky Widow Mine shots, if they happen at all at lower levels.
On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote: People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid?
I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue.
But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss)
and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D)
I sort of stopped reading at the point where he said WoL was a better game...
this is a matter of opinion and some people (including me) genuinely think WOL was a better game. everything people hated about wol (50 min turtle fest, deathballs, strength of allins, coinflip factor, bad balance) is still there and in most cases even worse.
Are we watching the same game? I don't see Zerg turtling every single P/TvZ to an unbeatable Infestor/BL/Spine/Spore/Queen composition that just kills everything. I don't see Protoss players Soul Training literally every PvZ in order to break even. I don't see Terran players playing as greedily as physically possible (even allowing themselves to be all-inned) in order to offset the Queen buff which made early pressure not worthwhile.
Seriously, there's no matchup that isn't better than it was at the end of WoL. Maybe TvT? But other than that, not one matchup is worse.
really don't understand why anyone would think hots is better, but i'll try to respect your opinion, cause in the end that's what it's about when discussing what's a better game.
Because HotS killed most of the utterly retarded/boring stuff in WoL (Infestor/BL, Soul Train, warp on high ground) and gave people actual aggressive options that aren't all-in and that promote actually doing something in the midgame. The only matchup that still has some problems in this regard is PvT, which is pretty much identical to WoL but even more passive. PvZ is worlds better, even if it still sucks, because nobody goes Infestor/BL anymore (thank the fucking Starcraft gods).
turtle issues: zergs turtling EVEN HARDER with swarm hosts vs protoss (explain to me why you like swarm host turtle bullshit more than infestor bl turtle bullshit please. infestor bl at least required micro on the zerg part, swarm hosts require none).
Because SH/Viper isn't every single game, because it requires (some) skill to get to, and because Protoss players actually have macro options (Stargate, for example) unlike in WoL.
zergs are FORCED to hardcore turtle vs terran with never leaving base vs terran without roach bling allin harassing is impossible for zerg thanks to turrets and pf (AWFUL idea, whoever actually put this thing in the game should never work on a rts again)
Both Turrets and PFs were in WoL, so..
zerg leaves his base before 500 spines spores and huge bank? terran drops zerg lost.
Sounds like the Zerg player in question is blind (i.e. doesn't spread creep/overlords/take map control ever) and has the reaction time of a potato.
protoss turtles with air ht
Against whom? Zerg? You can't really "turtle" with Air/HT unless your opponent lets you, since the composition takes forever to get to and because it's pretty weak until you hit a large number of units.
pf still exists
terran greed: you see terran still greeding just like before.
Um...economic strats still exist...? No shit.
soul train: soul train still exists in many versions and is even stronger cause MSC, and terran has a build similar to it in 3 bases 65 scv marine rally
Ya no. The current Soul Train isn't a soul train at all. It's just an MSC all-in that hits a bit later. It's far worse than WoL one because Hydras are fucking amazing. If you actually watch HotS you'd see that only Stardust ever wins with this build regularly, and he doesn't play top Zergs anyway. FFS, Jaedong beat him like last weak, and Jaedong sucks at ZvP.
pvt is exactly the same shit matchup it was in WOL except protoss now is 100% unbreakable early game and has way more allins/cheeses.
PvT was pretty balanced in WoL. Dunno what you're complaining about. Yeah, the early game has problems (and it did in WoL, too) but the style of play isn't that awful.
also:
late game protoss and terran are now unattackable for zerg cause bl arent viable and everything else can't attack into building walls (outside of swarm hosts)
Well what the fuck do you expect? You do realize that in WoL, Zerg could trade literally for free once they got enough Infestors/BLs, right? Like there was actually nothing a Protoss player could do at all against it.
late game protoss armies are now straight up unbeatable for zerg without mass SH turtle and spine support cause there is no counter to void rays + ht, therefore FORCING zerg to allin before ht or hardcore turtle SH bullshit.
Umm...Void/HT max takes forever to get to, and as long as you open with some sort of reasonably flexible midgame, you can punish Protoss players trying to take 8 minute thirds with 1 Gateway, a Stalker, and a Void Ray. Furthermore, you don't need to turtle to get SH/Viper if the Protoss has had time to get fucking mass VR/HT (both of which are expensive as fuck and require totally separate production and upgrades). You have all the time in the world. Plus, at least HT/VR vs SH/Viper requires the players to do something (Feedback vs Abduct vs manuvering locusts vs not losing HTs to locusts etc.) rather than Infestor BL which was like close your eyes, spam Fungal and IT, and then go AFK. Short of getting Vortexed, there was no way to lose in that kind of situation.
65 scv marine rally is NOT possible to hold as zerg without suffering critical damage when terran does it correctly.
No True Scotsman. You can't just say a strategy is impossible to hold and then react to examples of it being held as "well that wasn't the strategy being done properly."
also why is it so wrong that some top end foreigners should be favorites vs low tier koreans? some of them still are/should be.
There was a point in WoL where no Protoss player in the world could win a macro game against any number of foreigner Zergs (i.e. not just Scarlett and Stephano).
On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote: Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran.
The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic.
We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8).
Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play.
And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games.
I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you.
And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene.
The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve.
So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race.
I would be interested to know more about that "theoretical potential of the races" ... and since you seem to know where that lies you could explain it.
Otherwise I would rather consider it as an empty phrase which you use to convince yourself that the opinion of the person you are talking to is invalid.
A bit weird part here of your post since our conclusion was the same. Anyway I don't know where the theoretical performance of a race is. I do know it is way higher than what any pro currently can do, or what any human being ever will do. This is the potential of lings for breaking siege tank lines: . That is orders of magnitude better than what any human will ever do. So we can at least conclude that in theory every player could be way better, they aren't even close to fully utilizing the theoretical potential of their race.
Now, is telling a GM zerg that he should just work on his ling splits vs siege tanks realistic? Of course not, he will never be able to do that. However then my point is: Is telling a gold player balance is fine for him since he should just work on his micro until it is as good as Hyun's micro realistic? No also not.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote: People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid?
I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue.
But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss)
and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D)
I sort of stopped reading at the point where he said WoL was a better game...
this is a matter of opinion and some people (including me) genuinely think WOL was a better game. everything people hated about wol (50 min turtle fest, deathballs, strength of allins, coinflip factor, bad balance) is still there and in most cases even worse.
Are we watching the same game? I don't see Zerg turtling every single P/TvZ to an unbeatable Infestor/BL/Spine/Spore/Queen composition that just kills everything. I don't see Protoss players Soul Training literally every PvZ in order to break even. I don't see Terran players playing as greedily as physically possible (even allowing themselves to be all-inned) in order to offset the Queen buff which made early pressure not worthwhile.
Seriously, there's no matchup that isn't better than it was at the end of WoL. Maybe TvT? But other than that, not one matchup is worse.
really don't understand why anyone would think hots is better, but i'll try to respect your opinion, cause in the end that's what it's about when discussing what's a better game.
Because HotS killed most of the utterly retarded/boring stuff in WoL (Infestor/BL, Soul Train, warp on high ground) and gave people actual aggressive options that aren't all-in and that promote actually doing something in the midgame. The only matchup that still has some problems in this regard is PvT, which is pretty much identical to WoL but even more passive. PvZ is worlds better, even if it still sucks, because nobody goes Infestor/BL anymore (thank the fucking Starcraft gods).
turtle issues: zergs turtling EVEN HARDER with swarm hosts vs protoss (explain to me why you like swarm host turtle bullshit more than infestor bl turtle bullshit please. infestor bl at least required micro on the zerg part, swarm hosts require none).
Because SH/Viper isn't every single game, because it requires (some) skill to get to, and because Protoss players actually have macro options (Stargate, for example) unlike in WoL.
zergs are FORCED to hardcore turtle vs terran with never leaving base vs terran without roach bling allin harassing is impossible for zerg thanks to turrets and pf (AWFUL idea, whoever actually put this thing in the game should never work on a rts again)
Against whom? Zerg? You can't really "turtle" with Air/HT unless your opponent lets you, since the composition takes forever to get to and because it's pretty weak until you hit a large number of units.
soul train: soul train still exists in many versions and is even stronger cause MSC, and terran has a build similar to it in 3 bases 65 scv marine rally
Ya no. The current Soul Train isn't a soul train at all. It's just an MSC all-in that hits a bit later. It's far worse than WoL one because Hydras are fucking amazing. If you actually watch HotS you'd see that only Stardust ever wins with this build regularly, and he doesn't play top Zergs anyway. FFS, Jaedong beat him like last weak, and Jaedong sucks at ZvP.
pvt is exactly the same shit matchup it was in WOL except protoss now is 100% unbreakable early game and has way more allins/cheeses.
PvT was pretty balanced in WoL. Dunno what you're complaining about. Yeah, the early game has problems (and it did in WoL, too) but the style of play isn't that awful.
late game protoss and terran are now unattackable for zerg cause bl arent viable and everything else can't attack into building walls (outside of swarm hosts)
Well what the fuck do you expect? You do realize that in WoL, Zerg could trade literally for free once they got enough Infestors/BLs, right? Like there was actually nothing a Protoss player could do at all against it.
late game protoss armies are now straight up unbeatable for zerg without mass SH turtle and spine support cause there is no counter to void rays + ht, therefore FORCING zerg to allin before ht or hardcore turtle SH bullshit.
Umm...Void/HT max takes forever to get to, and as long as you open with some sort of reasonably flexible midgame, you can punish Protoss players trying to take 8 minute thirds with 1 Gateway, a Stalker, and a Void Ray. Furthermore, you don't need to turtle to get SH/Viper if the Protoss has had time to get fucking mass VR/HT (both of which are expensive as fuck and require totally separate production and upgrades). You have all the time in the world. Plus, at least HT/VR vs SH/Viper requires the players to do something (Feedback vs Abduct vs manuvering locusts vs not losing HTs to locusts etc.) rather than Infestor BL which was like close your eyes, spam Fungal and IT, and then go AFK. Short of getting Vortexed, there was no way to lose in that kind of situation.
65 scv marine rally is NOT possible to hold as zerg without suffering critical damage when terran does it correctly.
No True Scotsman. You can't just say a strategy is impossible to hold and then react to examples of it being held as "well that wasn't the strategy being done properly."
also why is it so wrong that some top end foreigners should be favorites vs low tier koreans? some of them still are/should be.
There was a point in WoL where no Protoss player in the world could win a macro game against any number of foreigner Zergs (i.e. not just Scarlett and Stephano).
your tone is way too aggressive for me to want to talk to you.
so i'll keep it as short and, considering your rudeness, direct as possible: you talk a load of shit.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
the game of the series he lost 0-3?
Yes, exactly from that series. Soulkey made some crucial mistakes with expansion timings and infestor-micro (not casting anything in the crucial battle) which cost him the game. Yet, you'll find that Soulkey took control of large sections of the game and attacked successfully. If he had not been playing Innovation (you know, the best player in the world who does not make mistakes), Soulkey would have surely won that game. It was quite remarkable.
Learn from Soulkey, he is by far the best at showing an aggressive TvZ that does not resort to all-ins.
Edit: It's embarrassing to see you claim that someone has too "aggressive" a tone for disproving each of your claims, and then see you immediately say "you talk a load of shit" which is way more aggressive than anything he posted.
I don't know why you keep bringing this back into the opinion corner, he didn't say "I loved WoL more than I love HotS", he said "WoL was better than HotS". That's not the same thing at all. According to him, the problems we have right now in HotS are bigger than the problems we had in WoL back then. Which is a ridiculous statement to make.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
the game of the series he lost 0-3?
Yes, exactly from that series. Soulkey made some crucial mistakes with expansion timings and infestor-micro (not casting anything in the crucial battle) which cost him the game. Yet, you'll find that Soulkey took control of large sections of the game and attacked successfully. If he had not been playing Innovation (you know, the best player in the world who does not make mistakes), Soulkey would have surely won that game. It was quite remarkable.
Learn from Soulkey, he is by far the best at showing an aggressive TvZ that does not resort to all-ins.
mistakes innovation made:
losing 6 helions to a very slow ling surround for free, wasn't looking not right clicking soulkeys hatchery when he broke through and it was red late expansions losing whole mineral line to banelings, wasn't looking again, no walloffs either. repeatedly flying medivacs over muta flock, luckily they have boost playing way too defensively, 0 drops even when he knew were mutas were. basically completely miss handling mutas.
soulkey played WAY better than innovation from a mechanical standpoint.
but: that playstyle soulkey showed is straight up bad.
even when he killed so many workers and all of the initial helions it really didn't matter and he should have lost his 3rd if innovation didn't mess up. soulkey was forced to throw away tons of blings just to survive for pretty much no gain at all except a few scvs cause innovation fucked up. he didn't have any real tech until it was too late and was way too cost inefficient in the long run. having that many mutas also just asks terran to do what innovation did to win: get a large medivac count, max out, attack, win cause mutas suck. when terran has that many medivacs he just kinda wins with spreading out a bit, as shown in the end of that game. fungals would have changed absolutely nothing against that number of medivacs, cause they'll just outheal fungal damage. fungals are used to keep terran army in place but when you have that many medivacs there just is no reason to move because in that case terran units kill zerg units so much quicker and SO SO SO MUCH more cost efficient than the other way around.
On July 30 2013 06:14 Nebuchad wrote: Wow... All this effort...
I don't know why you keep bringing this back into the opinion corner, he didn't say "I loved WoL more than I love HotS", he said "WoL was better than HotS". That's not the same thing at all. According to him, the problems we have right now in HotS are bigger than the problems we had in WoL back then. Which is a ridiculous statement to make.
it's stupid to make a statement that x is better than y when there just isn't any basis to argue this from other than opinion. you can point out things that hots improved, i can point out things that hots made worse. now again even that is based on opinion, something you think of as an improvement other people might see as a failure.
if you still don't understand then i just can't help you .. ?
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
the game of the series he lost 0-3?
Yes, exactly from that series. Soulkey made some crucial mistakes with expansion timings and infestor-micro (not casting anything in the crucial battle) which cost him the game. Yet, you'll find that Soulkey took control of large sections of the game and attacked successfully. If he had not been playing Innovation (you know, the best player in the world who does not make mistakes), Soulkey would have surely won that game. It was quite remarkable.
Learn from Soulkey, he is by far the best at showing an aggressive TvZ that does not resort to all-ins.
mistakes innovation made:
losing 6 helions to a very slow ling surround for free, wasn't looking not right clicking soulkeys hatchery when he broke through and it was red late expansions losing whole mineral line to banelings, wasn't looking again, no walloffs either. repeatedly flying medivacs over muta flock, luckily they have boost playing way too defensively, 0 drops even when he knew were mutas were. basically completely miss handling mutas.
soulkey played WAY better than innovation from a mechanical standpoint.
but: that playstyle soulkey showed is straight up bad.
even when he killed so many workers and all of the initial helions it really didn't matter and he should have lost his 3rd if innovation didn't mess up. soulkey was forced to throw away tons of blings just to survive for pretty much no gain at all except a few scvs cause innovation fucked up. he didn't have any real tech until it was too late and was way too cost inefficient in the long run. having that many mutas also just asks terran to do what innovation did to win: get a large medivac count, max out, attack, win cause mutas suck. when terran has that many medivacs he just kinda wins with spreading out a bit, as shown in the end of that game. fungals would have changed absolutely nothing against that number of medivacs, cause they'll just outheal fungal damage. fungals are used to keep terran army in place but when you have that many medivacs there just is no reason to move because in that case terran units kill zerg units so much quicker and SO SO SO MUCH more cost efficient than the other way around.
I can see why you see so much imbalance everywhere, you're bad at analyzing games. The determining factor was the comparative expansion rate. Innovation ended up 5 bases to 3. That's what decided most of the game.
Also, the fungals would have mattered because, contrary to your claim of no-tech (infestors are tech, hello), Soulkey was rushing for ultras. But in the final battle, he didn't use his fungals to lock down the bio of Innovation for the ultras to chew threw them. When he lost the ultras, it was game over because a low base-count didn't allow him to rebuild.
How you can claim that someone played better yet has a bad play-style (especially if your characterization of the playstyle as "no tech" is false) is beyond me.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
the game of the series he lost 0-3?
Yes, exactly from that series. Soulkey made some crucial mistakes with expansion timings and infestor-micro (not casting anything in the crucial battle) which cost him the game. Yet, you'll find that Soulkey took control of large sections of the game and attacked successfully. If he had not been playing Innovation (you know, the best player in the world who does not make mistakes), Soulkey would have surely won that game. It was quite remarkable.
Learn from Soulkey, he is by far the best at showing an aggressive TvZ that does not resort to all-ins.
mistakes innovation made:
losing 6 helions to a very slow ling surround for free, wasn't looking not right clicking soulkeys hatchery when he broke through and it was red late expansions losing whole mineral line to banelings, wasn't looking again, no walloffs either. repeatedly flying medivacs over muta flock, luckily they have boost playing way too defensively, 0 drops even when he knew were mutas were. basically completely miss handling mutas.
soulkey played WAY better than innovation from a mechanical standpoint.
but: that playstyle soulkey showed is straight up bad.
even when he killed so many workers and all of the initial helions it really didn't matter and he should have lost his 3rd if innovation didn't mess up. soulkey was forced to throw away tons of blings just to survive for pretty much no gain at all except a few scvs cause innovation fucked up. he didn't have any real tech until it was too late and was way too cost inefficient in the long run. having that many mutas also just asks terran to do what innovation did to win: get a large medivac count, max out, attack, win cause mutas suck. when terran has that many medivacs he just kinda wins with spreading out a bit, as shown in the end of that game. fungals would have changed absolutely nothing against that number of medivacs, cause they'll just outheal fungal damage. fungals are used to keep terran army in place but when you have that many medivacs there just is no reason to move because in that case terran units kill zerg units so much quicker and SO SO SO MUCH more cost efficient than the other way around.
I can see why you see so much imbalance everywhere, you're bad at analyzing games. The determining factor was the comparative expansion rate. Innovation ended up 5 bases to 3. That's what decided most of the game.
Also, the fungals would have mattered because, contrary to your claim of no-tech (infestors are tech, hello), Soulkey was rushing for ultras. But in the final battle, he didn't use his fungals to lock down the bio of Innovation for the ultras to chew threw them. When he lost the ultras, it was game over because a low base-count didn't allow him to rebuild.
How you can claim that someone played better yet has a bad play-style (especially if your characterization of the playstyle as "no tech" is false) is beyond me.
soulkey played muta ling bling vs marine marauder medivac. that's a losing battle, you need hive stuff. then, when he finally tried teching up at the 30 min mark he died to a mass medivac attack.
i was clearly saying that he played better FROM MECHANICAL perspective. he didn't fuck up unit control or multi tasking, didn't miss anything, etc. innovation did, as listed in my first post.
his play style was wrong and innovations wasn't. that's why soulkey lost.
not enough expansions? hah. while i agree soulkey could have expanded more expansions don't matter when you die to a frontal push, hm? should he have had more drones to saturate more expansions to have a smaller army and die even harder as well? pretty good analyzing there buddy. supply limit is a thing and therefore having too many drones against terran who only need a very low worker count cause they don't need to mine gas like zerg and have mules is a mistake in lategame, cause you'll just die to a bigger army. also soulkey had like 30 mutas and mutas, as we all know, SUHUHUCK in a fight.
cause he has a bad lair army composition against an army composition that you need a crazy hive tech army with mass transfuses and lots of blings to beat. soulkey had 4 ultras and 4 infestors. those 4 fungals (assuming innovation fucked up royally and all infestors cast fungal before they die + all fungals hit) would for sure have changed much against _14_ medivacs, huh? (read: soulkey had no / too late tech)
just look at how the ultras melt, doing fuckall to innovation. you know medivacs outheal fungal dmg right? so why would nothing + nothing equal something? spot on analyzing of that battle bro!
he couldn't get the tech he needed cause he was using so many blings that he couldn't have NOT USED because of his mass mutalisk lair tech playstyle and pure reliance on mass blings to scare innovation into backing up. therefore his playstyle maneuvered itself in a losing situation. therefore his play style is bad. makes sense? yup.
On July 30 2013 03:34 ETisME wrote: stop taking out win rate to say the game is balanced. how many times has this point been put up? win rate doesn't mean that much at all and it is only ever works as a reference point but never a data to end it all. WoL PvZ win rate wasn't that bad just because there was immortal sentries all in vs bl infestor It's still a shit imbalanced game when the race is way too strong at one particular point of the game (and I don't see a better race distribution from that list, there were a lot more toss up there and much less terran )
No oracle appearance Terran forces Zerg to stay turtling on their base for a LONG time, the so called trades are always just zerg being the defensive side No mech except for TvT swarmhost leads to extremely boring turtling game in ZvP limited micro capability for Zerg units, especially when compared to terran
there are tonnes of things the game need to improve on before saying "oh but the win rate is x%"
That's simply incorrect. For example, check out Innovation v Soulkey, July 23rd, game 1. Soulkey was constantly harassing with ling-bling and muta, also doing counter-attacks. Zerg doesn't win by reaching a late-game composition anymore (as they shouldn't), instead they need to outplay their opponent, harass, and use timings.
the game of the series he lost 0-3?
Edit: It's embarrassing to see you claim that someone has too "aggressive" a tone for disproving each of your claims, and then see you immediately say "you talk a load of shit" which is way more aggressive than anything he posted.
which as stated was a reaction to his rudeness and tone in his post.
also he didn't "disprove" any of my points, he just whined about WOL protoss, says sitting on 3 base making void rays and high templars for 20 min isn't turtling (and he even claims that it's the zergs fault that protoss turtles because he let's him, thereby both contradicting himself and making a really dumb statement that doesn't make sense, 'let protoss turtle' lol), put in a few uninformed opinions about zvt, didn't understand that i was complaining about stuff in WOL that HOTS failed to fix, one of these being a point HE HIMSELF complained about and made false claims like no protoss in the world having been able to win against any number of foreign zergs. so all in all there is no reason to take him seriously, especially when it's all packed into a post that has 'im a condescending dick' written all over it.
On July 30 2013 07:11 willstertben wrote: because you assume your opinion is factually correct and not just opinion. get it now maybe.....? is this really a new concept to you?
...and you don't want to talk to Shiori because he's aggressive. You're really making sense.
No, I don't think my opinion is factually correct. Nothing I've ever said in this thread even remotely looks like I think my opinion is factually correct. Your cue was when I said that "I like HotS better than WoL" isn't the same thing as "HotS is better than WoL". Actually, it's the opposite. If the game is only as good as you enjoy it, which is what you claim, then opinion = fact, because the only measurement on which you can compare the two games is your opinion of them.
On July 30 2013 07:11 willstertben wrote: because you assume your opinion is factually correct and not just opinion. get it now maybe.....? is this really a new concept to you?
...and you don't want to talk to Shiori because he's aggressive. You're really making sense.
No, I don't think my opinion is factually correct. Nothing I've ever said in this thread even remotely looks like I think my opinion is factually correct. Your cue was when I said that "I like HotS better than WoL" isn't the same thing as "HotS is better than WoL". Actually, it's the opposite. If the game is only as good as you enjoy it, which is what you claim, then opinion = fact, because the only measurement on which you can compare the two games is your opinion of them.
i'm only reacting bro.
maybe i misinterpreted what you were saying or i mixed you up with someone else, sorry.
your 2nd part didn't make sense because it assumes there is only one opinion. multiple different outcomes can't all be fact (in this particular question).
Nice backtracking there, buddy. Too bad your post is riddled with inaccuracies and contradictions. For example, Soulkey cannot cast a range 10 spell without infestors dying?!
Also you say that you need a hive-tech army with transfuses to beat bio. Well, then you go on to say that Soulkey had ultras and infestors. That's the composition (except fungal no longer does the DPS, ultras do it. And fungal is there to lock down the bio for Ultras to do the damage.). Also, you claim he needs transfusions, and, indeed, Soulkey had a number of queens (transfused a large number of times), infestors were well placed for fungals (they died after the battle was already over). He also had a good supply of ling-bling. Exactly what you describe. He just messed up the final battle, which you cannot do if your main is mined out and you don't have a 4th.
All in all, your posts smell of intellectual dishonesty where you twist words, backtrack on claims and misrepresent facts to make your case. To add to it, you're rude. So, I'm done with you. Anyone else reading this stuff, watch Soulkey games for great harass-based ZvT. Truly inspirational play which crushes lesser terrans.
because a detailed explanation of why soulkey ended up with only 4 ultralisks and 3 or 4 infestors and your belief that those 4 ultras and 3 or 4 infestors could have done ANYTHING against a maxed out spread out terran bio ball with 14 medivacs i give up on trying to reason with you, as you obviously have a, to put it mildly, very clouded judgment of what 4 ultras and 3 or 4 infestors can accomplish. there was nothing soulkey could have done not to get absolutely crushed in that battle, he literally had zero chance of winning at that point.
i will now resort to a really easy and unfair (+ rude, sorry) way of telling you why i am right and you are wrong, whether you're gonna accept it or not i don't care:
you are platinum i am high master
i am done with this now. time for me to go to bed, good night TL.
EPT
