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On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene.
The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve.
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On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve.
So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race.
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On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race.
they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument...
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On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument...
No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument.
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On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument.
diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game.
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On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game.
I thought that was gold league and below...
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On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:On July 28 2013 16:27 Sissors wrote:
Not to mention terran doesn't have less players overall than zerg. Actually very slightly more. However strangely all those players of that horribly OP race are in bronze, while the utterly broken zerg race is overrepresented in the higher leagues. But from gold up to GM zerg is better represented than terran. The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game.
Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills.
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On July 29 2013 18:17 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. I thought that was gold league and below...
I'm diamond, the game absolutely should not be balanced around my <100 APM and random BO's where I forget stuff all the time.
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On July 29 2013 18:32 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:On July 28 2013 22:31 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
The hell? Why does it matter what race dominates what rank as long as we're not talking about progammer levels? Whatever happens in ladder is not relevant...we're talking progammer levels and even more, we need to look at the top of the progamer in order to balance the game. You DON'T balance the game from bottom up, you do it from top down, it's common sense dude, stop being so defensive with terrible logic. We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8). Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play. And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills.
You're saying that balance isn't necessary. Why are you in this thread?
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On July 29 2013 18:43 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:32 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:On July 29 2013 01:00 Sissors wrote:
[quote]
We have had roughly 50 pages here of zerg complaining widow mines are fine for the top 16 players or so, but for every 'normal' player they were impossible to counter. And now suddenly the zerg are complaining that only the top 16 are relevant? (Roughly, might be top 8).
Tbh they were correct the first time. Of course balance for the top of Code S is important, since it gives us enjoyable games to watch. However if the balance for everyone else is horrible, then it is nice they have good balance in code S, but there is no one to watch them, so also no one will pay them to play.
And quite frankly for me personal, I enjoy watching pro gamers, but my primary entertainment from SC2 is playing it. If balance is so broken it is not fun anymore for me to play, I also won't be watching pro games. I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills. You're saying that balance isn't necessary. Why are you in this thread?
I think your sarcasm-radar is malfunctioning.
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On July 29 2013 18:46 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:43 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:32 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:On July 29 2013 02:52 GhostOwl wrote:
[quote]
I'm not Zerg and I wasn't in those discussions. If you're going to quit playing & watching just because the game becomes more balanced, then by all means, feel free to quit. No one is going to miss you. And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills. You're saying that balance isn't necessary. Why are you in this thread? I think your sarcasm-radar is malfunctioning.
Trolling is so 2005. Or is he serious? Even if he was being sarcastic, I don't get his logic.
Let me attempt this...
On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:
The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race.
I think you're trying to say: Pros can improve too. They should improve before we balance anything. Balance is unnecessary.
Correct?
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On July 29 2013 18:47 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:46 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 29 2013 18:43 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:32 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:
[quote]
And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills. You're saying that balance isn't necessary. Why are you in this thread? I think your sarcasm-radar is malfunctioning. Trolling is so 2005. Or is he serious? Even if he was being sarcastic, I don't get his logic.
He is serious. It's a reductio ad absurdum argument. You take the premise (posted in the thread earlier) that to determine balance you need to pass the stage of learning the game and lacking basic skills (arbitrarily set at gold or diamond), and then point out that everyone, including pro players, can still improve and discover new things. And then balance cannot be determined. The goal is, if I'm not mistaken, to go back to the standard idea that premier tournaments matter most for balance.
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On July 29 2013 18:47 pt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:46 Ghanburighan wrote:On July 29 2013 18:43 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:32 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:13 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 18:12 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 18:10 pt wrote:On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:On July 29 2013 03:01 Thruth wrote:
[quote]
And SC is gonna lose even more fans. The thing he's talking about is, game should be balanced at every level possible so diamond scrubs can enjoy playing and watching balanced pro scene. The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. they are the closest. besides, that's a pretty fallacious argument... No telling one group they should just improve, while telling another group the game should be adjusted for them, without a proper reason for the difference, is a fallacious argument. diamond players lack basic skills. they are just learning the game. Right everyone outside the top 2-3% lack basic skills and are just learning the game. Can they tie their own shoe laces, or do they also need help with that according to you? And this completely arbitrary line is based on what? Why not include masters players? Or why not include everyone? Wouldn't that be easy? Then we can completely ignore balance since everyone is still learning the game and lack basic skills. You're saying that balance isn't necessary. Why are you in this thread? I think your sarcasm-radar is malfunctioning. Trolling is so 2005. Or is he serious? Even if he was being sarcastic, I don't get his logic. Let me attempt this... Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 17:49 Sissors wrote:On July 29 2013 17:44 blade55555 wrote:
The game is balanced at diamond level. The reason they lose isn't because of balance, they lose because they need to improve on x part of their play. If it's balanced at pro level, then the games balanced below, they just need to improve. So why shouldn't pros just suck it up and improve if they lose? It isn't like they are anywhere near the theoretical potential of a race. I think you're trying to say: Pros can improve too. They should improve before we balance anything. Balance is unnecessary. Correct?
Yet it is exactly the same as your logic. You draw a completely arbitrary line, and then you tell that balance is irrelevant under that line (funny part is then you complain I don't want balance...).
So I did exactly the same as you did, only I placed the completely arbitrary line somewhere else.
Ghanburgan (you need easier name  ) described it well. Only I don't want to go back to only using premier tournaments, but I want it balanced for everyone. Of course that is easier said than done, and on some levels some balance issues are more acceptable than on other levels. But contrary to you (pt) I don't want to tell 98% of the players that they are ignored for balancing since they should just get better.
It is a line of reasoning that makes no sense whatsoever since you can tell that to everyone. If Hyun would get automaton 2000 bot level of micro he would be alot better. Yes that is completely unrealistic. Telling noobslayer335 who is ranked gold that he should just Hyun level micro is however just as unrealistic.
Edit: And no I wasn't trolling. Sarcasm/reductio ad absurdum is not trolling.
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People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid?
I got gradually bored with the current gameplays.
I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better.
I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue.
But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss)
and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D)
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9561436447
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On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote:People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid? I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue. But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss) and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9561436447
He has some valid points, but also a lot of bullshit
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On July 29 2013 17:37 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 17:16 Big J wrote:Why would it be balanced then for everyone? You can make a fairly simple definition of balance: people of equal skill playing different races should have equal chance of winning, regardless of their equal skill level. Balance can be different on different skill levels, there can also be changes that specifically direct either lower or higher skill levels. Lets say as stupid example, we prevent warp prism from picking up immortals. Has pretty close to zero influence on lower skill levels (lets say plat and lower). While at top levels it will have a very significant influence on PvZ. Well, but what you describe is like a mathematical theory on existence on something, which you can prove and it's great and everything. However, in reality you deal with the problem of finding the the thing and testing the premises. And that's where you simply have a problem: how do you determine equal skill? I like blizzard's approach with matching players with similar rating, because it is like quantum theory: we can never find out who has more skill, but, therefore, noone can ever disprove that MMR describes a players skill. Hence, defining that MMR=skill and then matching players with similar MMR will achieve exactly what you write. People of similar MMR play each other and, because MMR=skill have balanced winrates at all levels under the top. All that is left is to balance for the prolevel and create a good MMR. That's not really blizzards approach, but the approach of every RTS maker. However there are limits. First you can still find out if at a lower level a race is OP. If on average every gold zerg players who switches to protoss ends up in diamond, then it is unlikely to assume they all suddenly became alot better players. Especially when every gold protoss who switches to zerg ends up in bronze. You can also look at the distribution, if 80% of masters league is terran, while 80% of gold of zerg, then it probably means terran is too strong and zerg nog strong enough. Then we have the problem that there are more than 2 races, if T>P>Z>T, then the MMR can try what it wants, but it will never be a good result. Finally there is the fun-factor. The majority will not consider being stuck in a lower league due to their race fun. So the majority goes to the strongest race, meaning you only end up playing one matchup. Also lets say we double the HP of marines. In the end the zerg and toss players get terran players as opponents that are so bad they won't autowin. But is it really fun for those zerg and toss players that every terran opponent will only rally marines over? You are definately correct that the match making reduces balance issues on lower levels, but I strongly disagree it removes them.
Well those are all possible problems, but you can adjust MMR more to minimize those things even more (like MMR per matchup). And right now we hardly see such heavy swings. After all, when there are slight swings in balance, what happens is that the "OP" race just starts to face stronger opponents and their winrates stay basically the same.
And the "fun-factor" has hardly anything to do with balance. E.g. I believe that only banelingstyles with melee upgrades are viable in TvZ. But at my level roach/hydra works too.
And similar things can be said about nearly everything at even lower levels (like 4gate into expand or "bad" things like that). You can play around with nearly everything at lower levels and only at the higher levels you really start to feel why stuff isn't viable. If you don't focus heavily on improving, you can have as much fun as you want. I just believe that you (and I, and most people on these forums) actually try to improve and therefore try to learn highlevel playstyles - and therefore slowly walk away from "playing just for fun" (which is not true but I think you get what I mean; winning is a lot of fun too ).
I mean, your marine example makes sense - but I don't believe we ever had such an imbalanced thing in the game. Not even close to that. (time to bring out the bunker jokes)
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On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote:People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid? I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue. But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss) and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9561436447
I guess you can talk it here. But topic is beaten to death.
One thing I understood - blizzard doesn't care. so, why bother.
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On July 29 2013 20:33 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 19:23 SsDrKosS wrote:People! Is there a thread talking about design in team liquid? I got gradually bored with the current gameplays. I'm not saying that starcraft 2 is a wreck, but it could have been better. I thought the problem was rooted in balance but now I realise that is a secondary issue. But as time passes and watching the pro games, I realised some problems (esp terran and protoss) and this guy in bnet raised fairly reasonable point (I didn't know that he was that famous though :D) http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9561436447 I guess you can talk it here. But topic is beaten to death. One thing I understood - blizzard doesn't care. so, why bother.
blizzard cares.At least they have said so. But they also care about balance.
Go ahead, present an option to buff roach/hydra vs T...
Or one to buff tank/mech play against T/P...
Or Voidrays/Tempests/Carriers vs Terran...
Your first barrier won't be blizzard, it will be the community that wants to protect balance. Which I can understand fully, the time for playing around with those things is up. Blizzard should have heavily tweaked those things in the first months of HotS. If they now come in with something like "hey guys, we know the game is balanced. But you know, let's try this", there is going to be a massive outcry and huge balanceswings. Something that they can't do to an established proscene, porbably not even to the nonproscene.
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I don't think there is much wrong with discussing points to improve game design. However you have to stay realistic: for just HotS you can have some changed stats, and possibly a minor ability changed, but blizzard won't go further than that. For LotV you can have a few new units, a few can be removed and a some abilities can be changed.
But if you come with one of Rabiator's walls of text discussing why injects/chrono boosts/mules should be removed from the game, that is fairly useless. Doesn't matter if he is right or wrong, it will never happen.
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i have hated hots and given up all hope blizzard is gonna save sc2 ever since i saw the battle reports about replicators.
the only thing left is to get a somewhat balanced game. it will never be a very fun experience for viewers or players that take the game seriously at all.
now blizzard doesn't even touch balance anymore. it's like they just don't give a shit anymore.
"oh look the ladder win rates are 50% with a ladder system designed to give everyone a 50% win rate! PERFECTLY BALANCED! ANOTHER JOB WELL DONE GUYS"
still, it sadly is the best competitive game out there, which is saying more about the current game market than sc2....
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EPT
