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On July 24 2013 22:38 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 24 2013 22:18 Snowbear wrote:2 weeks ago we were reading about protoss being too weak. Then 2 weeks later, this happens: http://i.imgur.com/s0WCYYL.jpg Geez. That's pretty terrible. Is it consistently like this? Pretty much, yes. Give it time. The moment zergs realise that their strength isn't muta ling bling but ultra, things will change. Atm we see an agressive muta ling bling style. What about a more defensive play into a quick hive? Burrow cost changed. How many burrowed banelings did you see in the past months? We saw them much more in wol. Once zergs realise this, zvt will change completely. But I agree that this WOL muta ling bling style (without the burrowed banelings, lol) doesn't work against HOTS terran marine mine medivac style. Demuslim said this several times: terran has to be ahead in supply to fight off the lategame ultra army. Imagine zergs found a way to create this army much quicker.
no.
quick hive is standard, nobody plays aggressive muta ling bling.
problem is that you need 4 bases worth of gas for ultras + 4 energy upgrade infestors + 3-3 + ultra carapace + gas for blings. you need all of these components. if one is missing then zerg army is unable to compete with terran army.
also, in an even game, defensive muta ling bling dies to 3 base 65 scv marine mine rally to zerg 4th.
burrowed blings are good vs large terran armies and useless vs the prominent rally push style, as there won't be lots of clumped up marines to blow up with a bling mine.
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On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units.
because locusts lose to amoved marine/medivac brutally hard. Building a swarmhost is not more efficient than building 4linga to defuse the mines. which is just a thousand times cheaper. also it lengthens the midgame, which is exactly what you want to avoid and they are very weak vs drops.
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On July 24 2013 22:47 Big J wrote:
Demuslim is wrong. there were 200 vs 200 supply games yesterday. Terran did just fine.
Talking about 200 vs 200 is pointless without factoring unit composition for both sides, creep/offcreep, position and upgrades.
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On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units.
swarm hosts do absolutely nothing in numbers below ~8.
8 swarm host is a significant commitment and requires to add in another completely seperate tech path from what you want.
also swarm hosts are quite terrible vs terran in general, people have tried.
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On July 24 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:47 Big J wrote:
Demuslim is wrong. there were 200 vs 200 supply games yesterday. Terran did just fine. Talking about 200 vs 200 is pointless without factoring unit composition for both sides, creep/offcreep, position and upgrades.
talking about 200 vs 200 is pointless when the imbalance of tvz lies in zerg dying/taking irrecoverable damage before they even get hive tech out also.
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On July 24 2013 22:54 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units. swarm hosts do absolutely nothing in numbers below ~8. 8 swarm host is a significant commitment and requires to add in another completely seperate tech path from what you want. also swarm hosts are quite terrible vs terran in general, people have tried.
I dont buy this. Just like terrans sometimes have to make 1-2 tanks before going bio mine to defend aggression, why shouldnt zergs have to make a couple units they dont consider the bread and butter of their build to survive as well? Zergs make too many mutas and then whine and cry when they all die to a a couple mines when they a-move an attacking terran. DUH, thats 1000+ gas invested in a harrass unit that isnt any good at stopping an attack. Get a couple swarm hosts instead to slow a terran push, maybe throw in some infestors as well. Zergs jus cant get over their muta addiction it seems when it WOL you barely ever saw them.
Still, all this zerg QQing is such a total over reaction. Zergs have been doing absolutely fine in tournaments. IF your argument is they arnt doing fine in top level korean tournaments, well you just had 4 straight zerg champions at that level. Quit complaining, zergs are doing fine at your current league level and above. Just get better. No more broodfestor insta-gg.
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On July 24 2013 22:56 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:53 TheDwf wrote:On July 24 2013 22:47 Big J wrote:
Demuslim is wrong. there were 200 vs 200 supply games yesterday. Terran did just fine. Talking about 200 vs 200 is pointless without factoring unit composition for both sides, creep/offcreep, position and upgrades. talking about 200 vs 200 is pointless when the imbalance of tvz lies in zerg dying/taking irrecoverable damage before they even get hive tech out also.
Well those games don't really factor into the 200 vs 200 discussion....Just like 15 minute games don't factor into the discussions about 25 minute games.
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On July 24 2013 23:02 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:54 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units. swarm hosts do absolutely nothing in numbers below ~8. 8 swarm host is a significant commitment and requires to add in another completely seperate tech path from what you want. also swarm hosts are quite terrible vs terran in general, people have tried. I dont buy this. Just like terrans sometimes have to make 1-2 tanks before going bio mine to defend aggression, why shouldnt zergs have to make a couple units they dont consider the bread and butter of their build to survive as well? Zergs make too many mutas and then whine and cry when they all die to a a couple mines when they a-move an attacking terran. DUH, thats 1000+ gas invested in a harrass unit that isnt any good at stopping an attack. Get a couple swarm hosts instead to slow a terran push, maybe throw in some infestors as well. Zergs jus cant get over their muta addiction it seems when it WOL you barely ever saw them. Still, all this zerg QQing is such a total over reaction. Zergs have been doing absolutely fine in tournaments. IF your argument is they arnt doing fine in top level korean tournaments, well you just had 4 straight zerg champions at that level. Quit complaining, zergs are doing fine at your current league level and above. Just get better. No more broodfestor insta-gg.
swarm hosts aren't tanks.
1-2 swarm hosts don't even do a single point of damage before locusts are picked off by marines with superior range.
rest of your post: nobody gave you any reason to make thesecrazy assumptions. seems you just hate zerg.
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On July 24 2013 23:02 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:54 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units. swarm hosts do absolutely nothing in numbers below ~8. 8 swarm host is a significant commitment and requires to add in another completely seperate tech path from what you want. also swarm hosts are quite terrible vs terran in general, people have tried. I dont buy this. Just like terrans sometimes have to make 1-2 tanks before going bio mine to defend aggression, why shouldnt zergs have to make a couple units they dont consider the bread and butter of their build to survive as well? Zergs make too many mutas and then whine and cry when they all die to a a couple mines when they a-move an attacking terran. DUH, thats 1000+ gas invested in a harrass unit that isnt any good at stopping an attack. Get a couple swarm hosts instead to slow a terran push, maybe throw in some infestors as well. Zergs jus cant get over their muta addiction it seems when it WOL you barely ever saw them. Still, all this zerg QQing is such a total over reaction. Zergs have been doing absolutely fine in tournaments. IF your argument is they arnt doing fine in top level korean tournaments, well you just had 4 straight zerg champions at that level. Quit complaining, zergs are doing fine at your current league level and above. Just get better. No more broodfestor insta-gg.
Agree that Zerg players today make too many mutas.
Disagree that swarm hosts do anything vs bio.
Alternative to mutalisk is never swarm host. Infestor is 10x better if anything.
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I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now. But that would kill worker extremely fast so maybe not rofl.
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On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now
15 mutas can lost to 5 marines? When did this happen?
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On July 24 2013 23:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now 15 mutas can lost to 5 marines? When did this happen?
LOL, yeah id really like to know...typical zerg hyperbole.
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lol all this suggestions. "try fast hive + get burrow + get burrowed banes + get SHs while still getting ling bane muta since you know...somehow we found more gas for you". before posting anymore you should just play zerg at high master+ level and let some T destroy you with MMMM. either they outexpand you if you go sth. like SHs and meanwhile drop you to death or they just kill you since IP + hive + ultra den + ultra carapace + 5 ultras = 16 mutas or if you dont build any mutas...again drop you to death and outmacro you.
love how all T here theorize. just stop it, play zerg and give us your super BO that no worldclass zerg seems to think of. its so easy. and after that maybe fix mech since thats obv also just a l2p issue....
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On July 24 2013 23:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now 15 mutas can lost to 5 marines? When did this happen?
with medivacs 3/3? Maybe i am exaggerating but you get the point.
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On July 24 2013 23:12 Decendos wrote:
lol all this suggestions. "try fast hive + get burrow + get burrowed banes + get SHs while still getting ling bane muta since you know...somehow we found more gas for you". before posting anymore you should just play zerg at high master+ level and let some T destroy you with MMMM. either they outexpand you if you go sth. like SHs and meanwhile drop you to death or they just kill you since IP + hive + ultra den + ultra carapace + 5 ultras = 16 mutas or if you dont build any mutas...again drop you to death and outmacro you.
love how all T here theorize. just stop it, play zerg and give us your super BO that no worldclass zerg seems to think of. its so easy. and after that maybe fix mech since thats obv also just a l2p issue....
LOL YOU try playing master level terran and see how easy it is to split bio against an a move zerg army. Everything the terran has is useless if they cant micro and split properly. It should be the same for zerg.
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On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now
bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans.
only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game.
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On July 24 2013 23:13 Usernameffs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:12 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now 15 mutas can lost to 5 marines? When did this happen? with medivacs 3/3? Maybe i am exaggerating but you get the point.
Sure, if there is a medivac per marine, maybe, but that math for that is really dumb. But that doesn't have a lot to do with balance, since we never see that. Just like a zealot beats a roach if both are left alone, but when does that ever happen.
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On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game.
In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future.
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Hmm, I'm wondering what other people think about the recent hellbat nerf. Yes, hellbat drops were somewhat of a problem (imo mainly TvT became really lame), so I think the nerf was very justified in the first place. But why did they have to completely remove the strategy called hellbat drops... I mean, I don't think hellbat drops is actually a viable strat now, which I find quite sad. Hellbat drops - even though a bit too strong - were very exciting to watch. Couldn't they reduce the nerf a bit, for example give them 18 attack + 6 to light or sth. Just wondering what others think of this.
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On July 24 2013 23:14 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:12 Decendos wrote:
lol all this suggestions. "try fast hive + get burrow + get burrowed banes + get SHs while still getting ling bane muta since you know...somehow we found more gas for you". before posting anymore you should just play zerg at high master+ level and let some T destroy you with MMMM. either they outexpand you if you go sth. like SHs and meanwhile drop you to death or they just kill you since IP + hive + ultra den + ultra carapace + 5 ultras = 16 mutas or if you dont build any mutas...again drop you to death and outmacro you.
love how all T here theorize. just stop it, play zerg and give us your super BO that no worldclass zerg seems to think of. its so easy. and after that maybe fix mech since thats obv also just a l2p issue.... LOL YOU try playing master level terran and see how easy it is to split bio against an a move zerg army. Everything the terran has is useless if they cant micro and split properly. It should be the same for zerg.
if terran had to deal with the same harassment liability zerg has then you would have a point. but terran dooes in fact not get on the receiving end of harassment at all pretty much.
if zerg could drop all his injects at once with the same benefit as constantly dropping them, if terran had to spread creep, if terran had to react to what zerg is doing instead of the other way around, if zerg armies were untouchable when spread out perfectly, etc.
races are different.
On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future.
corruptors are the worst unit in this game by far. even battle cruisers and carriers are useful when you can actually get them out.
no way corruptors are the future of anything. (also they can't catch speedvac, mutas can)
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EPT
