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On July 24 2013 21:54 LSN wrote:
good game design would be bio/mine counters roach/hydra, muta/ling counters bio/mine, mech counters muta/ling, roach/hydra counters mech.
... something like this.
Current balance is bio+mine+drops counters everything, mech counters nothing. This is with no doubt an advantage for terran and an imbalance in the matchup.
If everything from terran counters zerg, then we would see 0 zerg wins in tournaments. Sorry but you are wrong.
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1. warp prism was buffed
2. hellbat got nerfed
3. ladder means very little
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On July 24 2013 22:18 Snowbear wrote:2 weeks ago we were reading about protoss being too weak. Then 2 weeks later, this happens: http://i.imgur.com/s0WCYYL.jpg
Man, he must be rich to own 12 accounts!!
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Marine splits? The Terrans are still going on about marine splits? Even though a Zerg microing against window mines is infinitely more complicated and doesn't have a known skill cap to it?
Whatever appeals to the masses, I guess. If the recent posts in this thread are anything to go by, Terran is well on its way to becoming the Jersey Shore race of real-time strategy.
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On July 24 2013 22:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 24 2013 21:54 LSN wrote:
good game design would be bio/mine counters roach/hydra, muta/ling counters bio/mine, mech counters muta/ling, roach/hydra counters mech.
... something like this.
Current balance is bio+mine+drops counters everything, mech counters nothing. This is with no doubt an advantage for terran and an imbalance in the matchup. The above is true with no micro from the Zerg. Roaches' Burrow move has been in the game since WoL beta, since WoL beta, how many Z pros have used roach burrow-move to ambush a terran MMM in the mid-field? Used them the same way medivac-marine-marauder use widow mine to bait lings into rushing onto a WM field? Right now Zerg have predominantly only used them for cute things like sneaking past a wall-in at 7 min. Soulkey's own splits are at best Code A grade, considering he does ctrl-click banelings and a-moves them headon into areas that have no current vision. Which you will never catch Flash or Innovation do, always one marine acts as stim-scout. You mean just like Terrans only using reapers early game and "havent figured out ghosts". And comparing a midtier code S player to the reigning champion and calling same "code a" like is just blunt blasphemy.
Deal with it.
I watched too many games of Soulkey where he blindly a-moves his whole army into an unscouted area that has an incoming MMMM army and accidentally his whole army losing whatever big lead he had...
I can say if he treated every ling like a delicate flower just as how Flash or Boxer treat their marines, he could be reigning champion of the world for a long long time with current mechanics.
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On July 24 2013 22:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 21:54 LSN wrote:
good game design would be bio/mine counters roach/hydra, muta/ling counters bio/mine, mech counters muta/ling, roach/hydra counters mech.
... something like this.
Current balance is bio+mine+drops counters everything, mech counters nothing. This is with no doubt an advantage for terran and an imbalance in the matchup. The above is true with no micro from the Zerg. Roaches' Burrow move has been in the game since WoL beta, since WoL beta, how many Z pros have used roach burrow-move to ambush a terran MMM in the mid-field? Used them the same way medivac-marine-marauder use widow mine to bait lings into rushing onto a WM field? Right now Zerg have predominantly only used them for cute things like sneaking past a wall-in at 7 min. Soulkey's own splits are at best Code A grade, considering he does ctrl-click banelings and a-moves them headon into areas that have no current vision. Which you will never catch Flash or Innovation do, always one marine acts as stim-scout.
AHAHAHHAH now its getting funny :D innovation vs soulkey in RO8 was probably the best ZvT and TvZ from both sides ever played. in game 1 soulkey played godlike, making 1 single mistake the entire game which was moving banes clumped up the ramp without vision which cost him the game. other than that he did amazing splits, sending in small groups of lings and banes, having single lings burrowed all over the map, harrassing with mutas etc. game 1 was close to a perfect game from both players. code A niveau...AHAHHAHAHA :D
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On July 24 2013 22:18 Snowbear wrote:2 weeks ago we were reading about protoss being too weak. Then 2 weeks later, this happens: http://i.imgur.com/s0WCYYL.jpg
O wauw xD Well, people just like to qq. It's like they believe Bogus and Maru didn't deserve their advancement.
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LOL
this splitting lings discussion is retarded on a very fundamental level.
you do realize that marines are ranged units and lings/blings are melee, right?
if you do 'sick ling splits' (just writing this makes me smirk) you will dodge more mine shots but lose a LOT of damage cause, you know, they're melee. when you attack with them all at once they will all clump up again cause they have to melee. most likely attacking with big ling spreads will just have your lings die one by one without being able to hit anything. meanwhile spread out marines still can attack while keeping a spread position. it's not even slightly comparable.
you can't spread out melee units vs ranged units. what the hell were you even thinking when you wrote that lol.
whenever a melee unit moves that unit loses damage output, while ranged unit attacking it loses nothing.
whenever a range unit moves it loses damage (minimized by stutter stepping in sync with attack cd), while melee unit loses damage too cause it will have to follow and possibly have messed up positioning thanks to other melee units.
asking people to spread out lings is like asking them to kite with ultras, lolololol.
what zergs can and should do is flanking and dragging mine fire into terran army and trying to disarm mines with small ling bling groups.
zergs already do this. could zergs do it better? yeah. could terrans micro mines better? yeah.
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On July 24 2013 22:23 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 24 2013 21:54 LSN wrote:
good game design would be bio/mine counters roach/hydra, muta/ling counters bio/mine, mech counters muta/ling, roach/hydra counters mech.
... something like this.
Current balance is bio+mine+drops counters everything, mech counters nothing. This is with no doubt an advantage for terran and an imbalance in the matchup. The above is true with no micro from the Zerg. Roaches' Burrow move has been in the game since WoL beta, since WoL beta, how many Z pros have used roach burrow-move to ambush a terran MMM in the mid-field? Used them the same way medivac-marine-marauder use widow mine to bait lings into rushing onto a WM field? Right now Zerg have predominantly only used them for cute things like sneaking past a wall-in at 7 min. Soulkey's own splits are at best Code A grade, considering he does ctrl-click banelings and a-moves them headon into areas that have no current vision. Which you will never catch Flash or Innovation do, always one marine acts as stim-scout. AHAHAHHAH now its getting funny :D innovation vs soulkey in RO8 was probably the best ZvT and TvZ from both sides ever played. in game 1 soulkey played godlike, making 1 single mistake the entire game which was moving banes clumped up the ramp without vision which cost him the game. other than that he did amazing splits, sending in small groups of lings and banes, having single lings burrowed all over the map, harrassing with mutas etc. game 1 was close to a perfect game from both players. code A niveau...AHAHHAHAHA :D
And then downhill from there no?
But no, your champion can do no wrong! It must be because Terran IMBA! That's it!
*face palm*
edit:
LOL
this splitting lings discussion is retarded on a very fundamental level.
you do realize that marines are ranged units and lings/blings are melee, right?
if you do 'sick ling splits' (just writing this makes me smirk) you will dodge more mine shots but lose a LOT of damage cause, you know, they're melee. when you attack with them all at once they will all clump up again cause they have to melee. most likely attacking with big ling spreads will just have your lings die one by one without being able to hit anything. meanwhile spread out marines still can attack while keeping a spread position. it's not even slightly comparable.
you can't spread out melee units vs ranged units. what the hell were you even thinking when you wrote that lol.
whenever a melee unit moves that unit loses damage output, while ranged unit attacking it loses nothing.
whenever a range unit moves it loses damage (minimized by stutter stepping in sync with attack cd), while melee unit loses damage too cause it will have to follow and possibly have messed up positioning thanks to other melee units.
asking people to spread out lings is like asking them to kite with ultras, lolololol.
what zergs can and should do is flanking and dragging mine fire into terran army and trying to disarm mines with small ling bling groups.
zergs already do this. could zergs do it better? yeah. could terrans micro mines better? yeah.
You do realise the purpose of ling splitting is to minimise losses from WM hits, regroup and then kill the remaining marines, the same reason, medivac-marine-marauder would do splits to *gasp* minimise losses from baneling hits, regroup and then kill the remaining bio...
Oy Vey.
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On July 24 2013 22:18 Snowbear wrote:2 weeks ago we were reading about protoss being too weak. Then 2 weeks later, this happens: http://i.imgur.com/s0WCYYL.jpg
Geez. That's pretty terrible. Is it consistently like this?
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On July 24 2013 22:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:Geez. That's pretty terrible. Is it consistently like this?
you can check it out yourself: http://nios.kr/sc2/kr/1v1/hots/
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you do realize that marines are ranged units and lings/blings are melee, right?
You realize that you're saying nonsense? Spliting isn't that hard for ZvT. Manual split like Terran do are not really the best thing to do in a direct fight when you're playing Zerg, it's not slowbane war here.
Btw, I really think we should wait a litlle before making changes for balance. Until EVERY ZERG I face in master ZvT split their units, i won't listen their claim for imba. Coz the ones who does it against me are really, really harder to beat. If there is a problem, it is not that high. But if he still exist when people will learn i won't be against some changes.
LSN Post is interesting, even if he is overextending into poor-zerg-T-favored imo. Changing gas costs for a lots of things in Terran units is something that should have been done a long time ago.
one more thing: Having a few roaches is always good in a zerg army for just two things.
1) They tank a lot more, and being slower, they don't go past the mines before the launch.
2) Having differents speeds in your army make it spread NATURALLY. You can check everytime you want in a test map.
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On July 24 2013 22:23 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:12 Big J wrote:On July 24 2013 22:05 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On July 24 2013 21:54 LSN wrote:
good game design would be bio/mine counters roach/hydra, muta/ling counters bio/mine, mech counters muta/ling, roach/hydra counters mech.
... something like this.
Current balance is bio+mine+drops counters everything, mech counters nothing. This is with no doubt an advantage for terran and an imbalance in the matchup. The above is true with no micro from the Zerg. Roaches' Burrow move has been in the game since WoL beta, since WoL beta, how many Z pros have used roach burrow-move to ambush a terran MMM in the mid-field? Used them the same way medivac-marine-marauder use widow mine to bait lings into rushing onto a WM field? Right now Zerg have predominantly only used them for cute things like sneaking past a wall-in at 7 min. Soulkey's own splits are at best Code A grade, considering he does ctrl-click banelings and a-moves them headon into areas that have no current vision. Which you will never catch Flash or Innovation do, always one marine acts as stim-scout. You mean just like Terrans only using reapers early game and "havent figured out ghosts". And comparing a midtier code S player to the reigning champion and calling same "code a" like is just blunt blasphemy. Deal with it. I watched too many games of Soulkey where he blindly a-moves his whole army into an unscouted area that has an incoming MMMM army and accidentally his whole army losing whatever big lead he had... I can say if he treated every ling like a delicate flower just as how Flash or Boxer treat their marines, he could be reigning champion of the world for a long long time with current mechanics.
And I have seen too many games of flash's really mediocre SC2 micro (while his macro is really strong) to believe a single word you say.
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On July 24 2013 22:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:Geez. That's pretty terrible. Is it consistently like this?
Pretty much, yes. Give it time. The moment zergs realise that their strength isn't muta ling bling but ultra, things will change. Atm we see an agressive muta ling bling style. What about a more defensive play into a quick hive? Burrow cost changed. How many burrowed banelings did you see in the past months? We saw them much more in wol. Once zergs realise this, zvt will change completely. But I agree that this WOL muta ling bling style (without the burrowed banelings, lol) doesn't work against HOTS terran marine mine medivac style.
Demuslim said this several times: terran has to be ahead in supply to fight off the lategame ultra army. Imagine zergs found a way to create this army much quicker.
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I think protoss is strongest but dosent have the best players and they are learning to use there new units. There are some low master that can play almost perfect macro but they cant use the mother-core in the right situations, Protoss was a little weak before but they only got better now when they can recall out. Terran is good but mmm isnt unbeatable so when a terran players play the top 3 guys in the world they become surprised because stuff they use to do doesn't work. Same goes for zerg when they play good terrans but not as much why i don't know.
But back to protoss, i am surprised why protoss even trys to engage stright up in the game when they can kill an hatch engage the zerg army for 5 sec and recall out and renegade there shields. maybe even splitting up their army and take out a base recall back, do stuff like that
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I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units.
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On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units.
This + can someone explain me why we saw a ton of burrowed banelings in WOL, but I almost never see them in HOTS. The cost is reduced in HOTS, right?
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On July 24 2013 22:38 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:28 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 24 2013 22:18 Snowbear wrote:2 weeks ago we were reading about protoss being too weak. Then 2 weeks later, this happens: http://i.imgur.com/s0WCYYL.jpg Geez. That's pretty terrible. Is it consistently like this? Pretty much, yes. Give it time. The moment zergs realise that their strength isn't muta ling bling but ultra, things will change. Atm we see an agressive muta ling bling style. What about a more defensive play into a quick hive? Burrow cost changed. How many burrowed banelings did you see in the past months? We saw them much more in wol. Once zergs realise this, zvt will change completely. But I agree that this WOL muta ling bling style (without the burrowed banelings, lol) doesn't work against HOTS terran marine mine medivac style. Demuslim said this several times: terran has to be ahead in supply to fight off the lategame ultra army. Imagine zergs found a way to create this army much quicker.
burrow costs didnt change...
burrowed banelings are used less, because you need mapcontrol to set them up. burrowed at home they are of no use, as terran scans creep anyways.
This is HotS muta/ling/bling style, WoL featured earlier mutas, later upgrades and more aggression. not to mention that it transitioned into infestors, while the hots one transiions into ultras.
Demuslim is wrong. there were 200 vs 200 supply games yesterday. Terran did just fine.
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On July 24 2013 22:46 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 22:43 stratmatt wrote:
I dont understand why zergs havnt tried popping a couple defensive swarm hosts to slow down mine pushes. You would think that a swarm host would be able to trigger mines and slow down any terran push without having to sacrifice any real units. This + can someone explain me why we saw a ton of burrowed banelings in WOL, but I almost never see them in HOTS. The cost is reduced in HOTS, right?
Same cost, i think its good but 50% time its not good, that why. The problem is in Starcraft you don't want to pay for thing you don't know if you gonna use. But i agree that it should be upgraded.
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EPT
