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On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs.
By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true.
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On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true.
1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt.
2. blink
3. feedback
and if it was just about dpsing down medivacs then you would chose hydras over corruptors.
only advantage corruptors have is that they will attack medivacs while a moved, but that's irrelevant for master level micro and higher.
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See any of the MLG games by Life for why splitting melee units versus mines so you can then overrun the ranged units is a brilliant suggestion.
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On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback
Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff:
Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them.
Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape
Fungle
Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do.
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On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback and if it was just about dpsing down medivacs then you would chose hydras over corruptors.
Well hydras will be hindered by terrain, the mmm will focus them just as fast as mutas, and you will still require apm to focus the medivacs with them.
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On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases.
Yeah. Overcommitment to muta was killing Zerg 2 years ago, and I feel people are making the same mistake again. Due to widow mine, aggressive mutalisk play is limited by overseer speed which is 2.75 even after speed upgrade. Mutalisks aren't necessarily mobile in this sense. Used defensively, though, they are good vs drops. IMO Zerg vs bio Terran has always been about 1. how to kill marines 2. how to skip mutalisk as much as possible. Early WoL mass muta never worked well back then, and mass muta today is not working well either. I'd go as far to say HotS BL-infestor might work better than mass muta no matter how much people hate to see it again.
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On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do.
queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink.
mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument
fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen.
why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal.
zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg).
zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops.
other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas?
as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops.
any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is.
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On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops.
Stalkers don't come with blink and its the last upgrade protoss get in PvT, like after 3/3. Medivacs are scary because a protoss can loss colossi to vikings and then you either rebuild or got HTs. If zerg can catch my phoneix with fungle, you can catch a medivac, its just not easy. But hitting a great storm agaist stimed bio isn't easy either.
Really, this has degraded into whining. Each race has its flaws. As a protoss, I would love to have zerglings and creep or any ground unit that went that fast and was that cheap.
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corrupters have more range, more dps, and less liklyhood of clumping than mutas. They can also morph into broodlords and are a much better investment towards the lategame. Saying they cant 'catch' medivacs is bullshit because terran should be free to retreat if they dont want to lose everything but should also have to risk losing medivacs to corrupters if they wish to stand and fight.
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On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops. other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas? as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops. any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is.
So zergs get spores without an evo requirement and suddenly they dont know how to build static defense?
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On July 25 2013 00:18 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:
[quote]
bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans.
only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops. other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas? as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops. any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is. So zergs get spores without an evo requirement and suddenly they dont know how to build static defense?
oh don't get me wrong. you need static defense too.
mutas alone suck at killing drops as the game goes on.
static defense is good at buying time, but won't stop a drop either thanks to bio getting upgrades and static d not.
On July 25 2013 00:17 stratmatt wrote:
. Saying they cant 'catch' medivacs is bullshit because terran should be free to retreat if they dont want to lose everything
but you see that's exactly why you make mutas over corruptors, so terrans aren't free to retreat. mutas clumping in battle is a nonissue.
why do you argue about such basic things? maybe you should play a little more instead of hating on zerg in forums so you would know such things.
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On July 25 2013 00:21 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:18 stratmatt wrote:On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:
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In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops. other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas? as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops. any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is. So zergs get spores without an evo requirement and suddenly they dont know how to build static defense? oh don't get me wrong. you need static defense too. mutas alone suck at killing drops as the game goes on. static defense is good at buying time, but won't stop a drop either thanks to bio getting upgrades and static d not. why do you argue about such basic things? maybe you should play a little more instead of hating on zerg in forums so you would know such things.
I don't think he is hating on zergs as a whole, mostly your whiny tone.
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On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:10 Usernameffs wrote:
I know have to fix marines vs muta if thats a problem. Blizzard wants to see mutas being used in zvt and the fix wouldn't effect them in zvp. Just make bonus dmg to light. Maybe not now because its not that bad but if it becomes bad in zvt maybe. So instead of 15 muta loosing to 5 marines they maybe lose to 10 marines now bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans. only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops. other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas? as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops. any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is.
Exactly what I'm talking about.
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Seriously.... if you want to get to masters incorporate Static D instead of getting caught with your pants down with drops.... Everytime I play zerg they use static D it gives you time to react to drops and if the drop is defended with pure static D Depending on position of the expansion will have more static D and ofcourse the stage of the game then it gives you the freedom to push and harass.... Terran has to split your army and do multi pronged attacks to win at teh front and push back creep.... Its a fact not an opinion..... Mutas are really good at killing MMM with ground support.... but 95% of zergs just A move and clump with 0 micro...... Soooo why should this be a balance discussion because you have to do a little more work to stay in the game? Going from Diamond to Masters is about control and good macro.... if your control suffers especially vs a zerg you will stay in diamond.... FOREVER why should it be different for zerg?
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On July 25 2013 00:26 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 00:10 willstertben wrote:On July 25 2013 00:03 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2013 00:00 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:56 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2013 23:55 willstertben wrote:On July 24 2013 23:50 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:32 clitvin wrote:On July 24 2013 23:18 Nebuchad wrote:On July 24 2013 23:15 willstertben wrote:
[quote]
bonus dmg to light = mutas now counter hydras and infested terrans.
only reason people make mutas in zvt is cause they're the only unit that can kill medivacs and you need to kill medivacs otherwise you automatically lose the game. if it weren't for that then nobody would make mutas zvt, as they suck in fights, suck as harass (vs turret/mine/marine reinforcements), are expensive as fuck and stay on low upgrades vs 3-3 bio all game. In that case Revival (or whoever it was, but I think Revival) was ahead of meta building corruptors. They are better at killing medivacs, and they will facilitate a transition to broods later on. If mutas really are useless against this comp other than killing vacs, then corrus are the future. How does that make any sense at all??? Mutas are pretty shit in a straight up fight but they can at least attack marines/mines. Corruptors can't attack them at all.... so how would that be a better choice in any situation? Nevermind the fact that they cost more as well.. Was reacting to willsterbten's notion that the mutas are only good at killing medivacs... In most games I see, the players lose a ton of mutas, replenish them constantly, and end up spending a large fuckton of their gas on them. If he's right that mutas are useless outside of killing medivacs, then zergs are doing something wrong building so many of them. The two possible reactions are either build less mutas (and you won't catch a single medivac ever), or try something else (hence corru suggestion). How about starting with some mutas, as the terran base doesn't automatically start with anti-air defenses ready everywhere, and then transition into corrus when the terran is sufficiently defended and the mutas' helpfulness decreases. "corrus" can't catch medivacs therefore they aren't a valid choice for killing medivacs. By that standard, protoss can't kill medivacs either, since nothing can catch them when they are boosted. But we all know thats not true. 1. mass medivacs is bad vs protoss so you don't need to kill them as badly, colossus also limits medivac count, drops are less of an issue in pvt as in zvt. 2. blink 3. feedback Yeah, and I can list off the things that zerg has to kill them and say all the same stuff: Queens at every base, 1 or 2 of them. Mutas can catch unboosted medivacs when they try to escape Fungle Just because you list stuff doesn't make it easy. And protoss fear mass medivac the same way you do. queens don't kill medivacs and can't blink. mutas can kill medivacs thank you for supporting my argument fungal isn't instant anymore and it's almost impossible to hit at master+ level if your opponent doesn't want it to happen. why do you fear mass medivac as protoss? just make more colossus as he won't be able to have enough vikings then. and your burst dmg is stronger than his heal. zerg doesn't have colossus (ultra is much weaker dmg). zerg can't warp in chargelot dt ht to defend drops. other discussion: why are you talking about overcommitment to mutas? as zerg you NEED to keep a flock of ~12 mutas all game or you'll just simply lose to drops. any more is wrong, any less is wrong. there is nothing left to figure out there, that's just the way it is. Exactly what I'm talking about.
yup, this is common knowledge. doesn't help against 65 scv constant rally push though.
if you don't make these 12 mutas in the first place it would, but there is simply no way of knowing whether the push is coming or not and terran can make that decision on the fly without changing up his build at all up to that point.
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this whole corruptor discussion is completely idiotic. Corruptors can't even be used to pose a thread to the terran and make him build a few more turrets and other defenses. Mutalisks are the last unit that can make the terran feel afraid in some units and you now say the solution is to build corruptors. This is just wrong.
It is very obvious that terrans here try to give always new argumentes to defend the strength of their race and talk about potential of corruptors and swarm hosts vs bio. Just rofl.
When I play ladder I see terrans that played platin/diamond in WOL that are now medium to high masters. They naturally win games by just macroing and doing 2-3 drops and finally crash zergs with bio+mines where there is no single cost effective counter to it in the game and having an easy life.
While ZvT in late WOL was a bit imbalanced in the very late game when broodlords + infestors came out, this ZvT was completely imbalanced in the beginning of WOL with unbeatable terran all-ins with reapers, bio+scvs+ bunkers etc.
Now in the beginning of HOTS terrans needed to learn their new mechanics. As they begin to use them better and better the matchup gets more and more imbalanced. This is what we see now. While in the begining of HOTS some zergs still were able to get things done its getting thinned out now where terrans utilize their stuff more and more perfectly. Still alot of terran all-ins are there that zergs can barely hold (like the off-rax things) but you dont see any terrans doing it because macro game of terran is just as strong.
Well mutalisks are really useless vs terran bio, they are just a drop defense that is 3-4 times as expensive than the drop itself but there is nothing else Z has to defend drops on multiple locations effecively. Moving hydras/roaches around is nothing you really want and can do on the long term and medivacs can escape hydralisks easily while mutalisks can effectively kill them.
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On July 25 2013 00:28 Pirfiktshon wrote:
Seriously.... if you want to get to masters incorporate Static D instead of getting caught with your pants down with drops.... Everytime I play zerg they use static D it gives you time to react to drops and if the drop is defended with pure static D Depending on position of the expansion will have more static D and ofcourse the stage of the game then it gives you the freedom to push and harass.... Terran has to split your army and do multi pronged attacks to win at teh front and push back creep.... Its a fact not an opinion..... Mutas are really good at killing MMM with ground support.... but 95% of zergs just A move and clump with 0 micro...... Soooo why should this be a balance discussion because you have to do a little more work to stay in the game? Going from Diamond to Masters is about control and good macro.... if your control suffers especially vs a zerg you will stay in diamond.... FOREVER why should it be different for zerg?
nobody said anything about diamond and master (im high master fyi)
nobody said anything about mutas being to weak against medivacs (they aren't)
nobody said anything about a moving their army without micro (nobody in master+ does that, as it is an automatic loss)
just another defensive zerg hating terran who has nothing to say except empty, baseless accusations.
also you dont need to "Terran has to split your army and do multi pronged attacks to win at teh front and push back creep.... Its a fact not an opinion.....", just do a 65 scv 3 base push, rally all your barracks to zerg 4th and you'll win if you don't screw up as shown in any innovation game. even someone like sjow was able to beat life like that recently.
OSL soulkey vs innovation showcased the problems with that style of play again.
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Whoa Whoa whoa you defly read that statement incorrectly .... LOL I'm on your side zerg is complaining about balance it is baseless and I was using the Diamond to Masters as an example.... because that is a critical time at anybody's gameplay is crossing that threshold is the difference of control and keeping your macro pristine. I'm with you these are baseless accusations and complaints of People that want to just be able to A-move and not take splash damage.....
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No split Zerg & too many muta criticism from Terran makes sense.
Swarm host vs bio & corruptor suggestion from Terran doesn't make sense.
That's how I read the last few pages. Zerg needs to improve and innovate for sure, but not in these ways. Both sides need to chill if you ask me.
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there simply is no serious imbalance in zvt when zerg reaches 4 base hive tech with a flock of 12 muta. it's difficult but mostly a mechanics war and the better player usually wins.
the problem is getting there and not taking game ending damage while teching up.
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EPT
