EPTTerran
Marine,
-Build time increased from 25 to 27 seconds
-Mineral cost increased from 50 to 55
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 52
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Intricate1
169 Posts
Terran Marine, -Build time increased from 25 to 27 seconds -Mineral cost increased from 50 to 55 | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:04 eXdeath wrote: Regarding the TvP Ghosts vs Hts "problem" : What do you think about something like this : Guardian shield absorbs EMP. EMP cancels Guardian shield but doesn't do damage to units when doing so. Ghosts would have to use 2 EMPs to damage an army under Guardian shield. This would make : sentry + 1 ht > 1 ghost and 2 ghosts > sentry + 1 ht. And maybe would we see crazy micro battles where the protoss player has to reactivate his guardian shield quickly after the first EMP landed. I'm afraid this would create other balance problems but i'd like to know your opinion about it. I'm going to go ahead and offer the obvious "but then a squad of HTs can go around with a guardian shield and feedback EVERY GHOST" and then counter it with: Get Cloak. | ||
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Three
Japan278 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:24 VirgilSC2 wrote: I'm going to go ahead and offer the obvious "but then a squad of HTs can go around with a guardian shield and feedback EVERY GHOST" and then counter it with: Get Cloak. Doesn't snipe outrange feedback? o_O | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 21 2011 03:18 Spicy Pepper wrote: I believe that balance is a major variable as Blizzard continues to improve the game ... I have to agree with you that Blizzard strives for balance (ever since they introduced PvP into WoW they were pestered by whines about imbalance of class X, Y or Z). The sad truth is that "balance" is NOT ATTAINABLE and thus the only reasonable solution is to design the game in a way which makes "imbalance" less of an issue. The perfect unit movement and thus tightly packed armies make perfect balance totally necessary ... especially for area attacks and in the case of Colossi - which can be packed tightly - it is most obvious how these tight balls can imbalance the game. Single target attacking units can be equally problematic (Blink Stalkers, Marines, Marauders, Zergling / Baneling swarms, ...). The easy to manage economy and the turbo boosts which each race has for production and speeding up their economy allow players to rebuild large armies after they have been destroyed. Sure, that makes the game fast paced, but it also requires perfect balance for the game, because both sides have to be equally able to produce a big mass of units. So IMO Blizzard is under the delusion of an achievable balance. They should instead accept the imbalance and make it less of an impact, just as BW wasnt perfectly balanced. They should also educate their "kiddies" to stop them from whining about something which they cant get ... unless all races are changed to be "the same". ... which wouldnt be Starcraft anymore. On August 20 2011 17:30 DragonDefonce wrote: Lets make this clear: BW is not balanced. The moment you make a map where forge expand is impossible, balance is broken. Increasing mineral patches shifts balance P>T>Z>P. Decreasing shifts it in the other direction. Balance(or the impression of balance) in BW is created by well crafted maps and resource control on them. Korean mapmakers have done a tremendous job, while ladder maps of sc2 are pretty much trash. Add to it some ridiculous ideas like altering terrain(force field), cloaked flying unit with too much firepower(banshee), stopping unit movement(fungal), ability to not have any workers(orbitals), etc etc and people wonder why balance wont find itself like it did with BW. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:22 Intricate1 wrote: My Thoughts, Terran Marine, -Build time increased from 25 to 27 seconds -Mineral cost increased from 50 to 55 Mineral cost 55 seems so wierd. I think a simple increase to 30 seconds would do a lot and the added mineral cost would come from getting more rax to produce marines fast enough, though i don't think marines are the core problem as protoss can usually deal with pure mass marine. The support units (tank, raven and banshees) are the problem. Two thoughts: 1. Either - PDD should require a 50/50 (or 100/100) research taking 120 seconds This makes it harder to have cloak and PDD with a push as the total research time for cloak and PDD would be 230 seconds and the total cost would be 250/250 or 300/300. 2. Or Build time increase for Banshee from 60 to 90 or even 120. Reduces the number of banshees significantly and also puts a dent in the 2-port banshee strategy that catches a lot of Zerg players off guard. It still allows for banshee harass but gives slightly more time to the opponent to prepare. Both changes do not change the ability of the terran to defend common aggression while still weakening the cheesier openings (including 1/1/1). | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:22 Intricate1 wrote: My Thoughts, Terran Marine, -Build time increased from 25 to 27 seconds -Mineral cost increased from 50 to 55 that makes no sense i suggest decrease zealot cost to 99 and stalker to 49 gas so it can help the matchup also zealot build time to be decreased by 0.5 sec it will help a lot | ||
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voy
Poland348 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
For Zerg players: Imagine if banelings were T2 (lair) and speed was T3 (hive). That's how we have it with our aoe unit being at the end of the tech tree PLUS needing a range upgrade to be useful, or needing an upgrade to be used at all (storm). There's a bunch of bandaids one could use for the 1/1/1 but eventually Protoss either needs earlier aoe or marines have to be nerfed. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:04 eXdeath wrote: Regarding the TvP Ghosts vs Hts "problem" : What do you think about something like this : Guardian shield absorbs EMP. EMP cancels Guardian shield but doesn't do damage to units when doing so. Ghosts would have to use 2 EMPs to damage an army under Guardian shield. This would make : sentry + 1 ht > 1 ghost and 2 ghosts > sentry + 1 ht. And maybe would we see crazy micro battles where the protoss player has to reactivate his guardian shield quickly after the first EMP landed. I'm afraid this would create other balance problems but i'd like to know your opinion about it. Interesting but I think it becomes pretty damn luck based and on a level the spectator can't even see (very well, I guess you can see energy bars). Is the terran landing 2 EMPs or 3-4? Is protoss reactivating guardian shield or not? It would come down to a lot of mind game (2 EMPs or 3 because he might reactivate GS? Reactivate guardian shield or is he going to wait a second to EMP so I waste it?) It would be interesting to play if a bit luck-based but on the spectator level I feel that it would be pretty hard to appreciate unless the animations are changed in some way to make multiples more obvious. You can activate GS while you have GS on right? No visual change, you just lose energy? You can kind of see multiple EMPs but more in the form of one, two, or "a lot". | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:23 Yaotzin wrote: Marines *are* the core problem, as MC mentions in his tweet. Mass marine *requires* aoe to stop, because they are so incredibly efficient. Protoss aoe comes too late to stop the 1/1/1. For Zerg players: Imagine if banelings were T2 (lair) and speed was T3 (hive). That's how we have it with our aoe unit being at the end of the tech tree PLUS needing a range upgrade to be useful, or needing an upgrade to be used at all (storm). Yeah, the core of the 1-1-1 problem is that to beat marines, you need stalkers, or tier 3. Tanks destory stalkers so badly (and marines rape them in large numbers), and Stalkers suck vs Banshees too (you can't beat 2 port banshee without a stargate.) Tier 3 comes to late as Banshees rip through non thermal lance colossus and obviously storm cannot even arrive in time. This leads to Protoss going zealot sentry with immortals and reinforcing with stalkers. If any marines are still alive (around 10), the banshees will rain supreme and once Terran comes with his reinforcing tanks and marines and banshees, the game is over. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
A tiny little bit. | ||
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nRoot
Germany928 Posts
For example Shields lvl1 reduces EMP shield damage to 90 and energy damag to 90 Shields lvl2 reduces EMP shield damage to 80 and energy damag to 80 ... (obviusly I didn't really think about usefull numbers here, maybe reducing shield damage would make Archons way too powerfull but at least reduced energy damage would help HTs i guess ... ?) I would really like to see more shield upgrades because they only come into play when protoss sits at 200/200 and has 3k/3k banked or something like that  (doesn't help vs 1-1-1 all in of course) | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:51 nRoot wrote: What do you think about Protoss shield upgrades possibly affecting EMP (shield and/or energy wise) ? For example Shields lvl1 reduces EMP shield damage to 90 and energy damag to 90 Shields lvl2 reduces EMP shield damage to 80 and energy damag to 80 ... (obviusly I didn't really think about usefull numbers here, maybe reducing shield damage would make Archons way too powerfull but at least reduced energy damage would help HTs i guess ... ?) I would really like to see more shield upgrades because they only come into play when protoss sits at 200/200 and has 3k/3k banked or something like that (doesn't help vs 1-1-1 all in of course) That would be a lategame change and lategame is already a lot more balanced than early game, so it would imho break the lategame and make toss too strong. | ||
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Huntz
164 Posts
On August 22 2011 23:11 Morfildur wrote: That would be a lategame change and lategame is already a lot more balanced than early game, so it would imho break the lategame and make toss too strong. How would it make late game P too strong? Ghosts already out range HT by 3, so either nerf EMP range by 2, buff feedback by 2, or do something to negate EMP's effects. | ||
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Nastiness
Sweden275 Posts
Like if its spotted and targeted.. you should have the ability to cancel it. Thats what i would like to see from a zerg point of view | ||
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Myrddraal
Australia937 Posts
I am not saying all of these should be done or if they would certainly improve the situation, just that they are possibilities that could be explored. 1. Remove the Templar Archives, and allow hts to be built after the Twilight Council. Storm would be upgraded in the Council. - This would mean Toss could get the hts out earlier, hopefully in time for 1-1-1 allowing the Toss to feedback raven, banshees and possibly storm the marines - May require significant change to storm damage (then if storm is weaker maybe make hts cheaper/faster) - With HT's more accessable I think this would also allow Protoss to vary their compositions significantly (including compositions involving archons) as Protoss army comp always seems so similar and stale (or else they just don't quite work, ie Naniwa vs TSLHeart; zealot archon was interesting but with a few emps and good kiting they just evaporated) 2. Either make charge cheaper (is charge really worth twice as much as stim? as well as needing a cyber core and a twilight council as opposed to a tech lab) Or split up Zealot speed and charge, put speed in the cyber core and charge in the council, even make charge require speed if need be. - Would make zealots more useful and give the Protoss more options early on 3. Increase Stalkers rate of fire, reduce attack animation time and remove their bonus to armoured (In such a way that their dps to armoured is similar or slightly higher while their damage to light is increased) . I think this could help in a few ways. - Increase the skill caps for Protoss players by allowing them to get more out of their stalkers via kiting - Increase the reward for blink stalkers as a harassment unit against workers - Give stalkers in low numbers a fighting chance against banshees - Increase stalker effectiveness against large amounts of marines, hence reduce the need for aoe against large numbers of marines 4. Switch the raven abilities Hunter Seeker Missile and Point Defense Drone, meaning that pdd must be upgraded. - Would make the 1-1-1 builds involving a Raven take a little bit longer and cost a little bit more, but would not severely affect other matchups because arguably pdd is better and the only other time Ravens are generally used is in TvT and not usually until two mech Terrans have decided to transition to air | ||
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AdrianHealey
Belgium480 Posts
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Skamtet
Canada634 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:20 Joseph123 wrote: Really?that makes no sense i suggest decrease zealot cost to 99 and stalker to 49 gas so it can help the matchup also zealot build time to be decreased by 0.5 sec it will help a lot | ||
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alwaid
United States96 Posts
just my two cents. | ||
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