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Slab
Canada15 Posts
On August 22 2011 04:22 Heavenly wrote:I think a potentially fair balance change (not-related to 1-1-1) would be to increase high templar speed. I have no idea why they are so slow compared to infestors and ghosts (which can burrow and cloak anyway). Would make caster v caster wars more even and allow you to get off earlier, critical storms. Perhaps replace the KA upgrade with a templar movement speed upgrade? Maybe it could also make them morph into archons faster while we're at it | ||
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PimpWilly
United States228 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:54 PimpWilly wrote: How about an upgrade, or hell even default behavior, that lets Immortals shoot air? Put it on a Robo Bay. That stops the Raven PDD making all Toss anti-air obsolete. Terrible suggestion. I think we need an upgrade for the warp prism that will allow it to shoot air if it has an immortal, 2 probes and 1 stalker inside it. I think with this upgrade, the warp prism will used more. Why 2 probes, an immortal and stalker? Because the warp prism need pilots But seriously.....I think there to many troll here we should probably tune it down a tad bit  | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On August 22 2011 15:00 SheaR619 wrote: Terrible suggestion. I think we need an upgrade for the warp prism that will allow it to shoot air if it has an immortal, 2 probes and 1 stalker inside it. I think with this upgrade, the warp prism will used more. Why 2 probes, an immortal and stalker? Because the warp prism need pilots But seriously.....I think there to many troll here we should probably tune it down a tad bit Heh, such a cute idea, though! | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 15:44 Kluey wrote: I feel like a Stalker range upgrade would counter the 1-1-1 if you kite them from their base to yours. Maybe even a speed upgrade for Stalkers. I like this idea. What better than having blinking stalker? Blinking stalker that are even FASTER. Genius my friend....total genius. This way stalker can blink into zerg main and snipe hatchery and leave and laugh at the speed upgraded roach on creep crys behind him. Oh wait.....just FF them and with your range advantage, they wont even touch you! Love it. | ||
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GreatestThreat
United States631 Posts
On August 22 2011 12:34 Ihpares wrote: The thing is, current numbers are showing Zerg as being balanced relatively near 50% against the other two races. I understand that Infestors are an incredibly strong unit, and people don't like it's versatility and overall strength, but without it the Zerg race falls back into a state of being underpowered, as opposed to relatively balanced. I don't know if any of you have looked at the TLPD statistics, but they seem to point to the fact that Zerg is relatively fine. If you change the Infestor, you risk unbalancing the current state of balance in the Zerg matchups. Yes, more than likely something else could be discovered to repair things, but until such time as the Infestor is shown to ACTUALLY imbalance matchups (55% or more against both races for three or more consecutive months), it really needs to be left be. Perhaps some of these changes might seem out of context without my having posted the entire 'patch', as it were. The goal wasn't to make infestors 'balanced' as I don't believe they are that overpowered - it was to increase the micro skill ceiling on all sides. I see a lot of complaining that fungal growth removes micro from battles - so two of the changes were made to address that. Anything that encourages players to micro more is a good change IMO, even if it is an imbalanced change that must then be compensated for in another way. Slowing movement speed by 150% percent does not make them move at negative speed by the way. In fact, slowing their movement speed by ANY percentage cannot even reduce movement speed to 0. If a unit with movement speed 3 was slowed by 50%, you divide the rate of movement by 1.5, resulting in a speed of 2. If any of you are thinking I did the math wrong and it should be moving at speed 1.5, look at it this way - If the unit was moving at 50% total of its original speed, than the full-speed version would be moving TWICE as fast, which is to say a 100% movement rate increase. 100 =/= 50. As to the comment that was made about units standing on top of a burrowed infestor to block it while it casts neural parasite - that is a very valid point and something I didn't consider. I believe a change to the infestors collision size with unburrowed units would have to be made upon casting the spell. Thanks for the feedback on that! | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
guys, when you discuss the balance change please have in mind what effect it would have on the other match-ups, cuz i'm pretty sure I feel like a Stalker range upgrade would counter the 1-1-1 if you kite them from their base to yours. Maybe even a speed upgrade for Stalkers. that would make ZvP unplayable. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:23 Hristiyan wrote: master zerg here. guys, when you discuss the balance change please have in mind what effect it would have on the other match-ups, cuz i'm pretty sure that would make ZvP unplayable. sshhhhhh dont tell them....otherwise I cant retroll them and laugh at all the horrible suggestion! lol jk but seriously.....people need to consider the different possible chain of event that can happen with their change :/ | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:41 Hristiyan wrote: Yea for example - bf hellions ... if they are nerfed properly , or just the armor of all-workers is changed, then all three races win ! I guess that wouldnt cause much imbalance since all race get the same change. But bunker rushing would be alot of fun :D | ||
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Hristiyan
99 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:59 Hristiyan wrote: then nerf the bunker rushing too! :D Actually I take that back, considering that armor increasing, that would make protoss underpower because scv rush would be imba! Repair and more armor = imbaaaaa!!!! Protoss has shield so armor doesnt effect them. Clearly terran would be OP. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 22 2011 11:52 SheaR619 wrote: Exactly. You basically agree with me that raven sucks so bad that they arent even worth getting even for detection lol. Terran are the not that gas intensive so wouldnt raven be a good way to spend the surplus of gas? If terran isnt gas intensive, then they will need every damn mineral they can. So even more reason to make the raven. But raven sucks so bad that terran would rather scan and lose the opportunity cost of having 10 more marines than make one. In other words, raven fail at their job as a mobile detection and switching SM with PDD would make them completely useless unless you some how buff SM if you are to swap it. My theory is somewhat different. Terran is a race that has not been underpowered since beta. They are probably overpowered in many ways right now. The fact, that instead of the cheaper counter (raven), a terran player can choose to burn money, and still be even with his opponent, is downright unsettling. Think of it this way: assume Protoss is somehow imbalanced on the macro front, and they can CHOOSE not to use observers, but instead they send a warp prisms with a zealot inside to scout the enemy, every minute or so, and get it shot down. And to top it off protoss players are suggesting how observers are crappy units. Wouldnt you consider protoss to be imbalanced if that were the case? Why should any race be able to play this wasteful and still be even? | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:09 IVN wrote: My theory is somewhat different. Terran is a race that has not been underpowered since beta. They are probably overpowered in many ways right now. The fact, that instead of the cheaper counter (raven), a terran player can choose to burn money, and still be even with his opponent, is downright unsettling. Think of it this way: assume Protoss is somehow imbalanced on the macro front, and they can CHOOSE not to use observers, but instead they send a warp prisms with a zealot inside to scout the enemy, every minute or so, and get it shot down. And to top it off protoss players are suggesting how observers are crappy units. Wouldnt you consider protoss to be imbalanced if that were the case? Why should any race be able to play this wasteful and still be even? Well your talking about the entire race in general being imbalance. I never talk about race directly. It just how terran mechanic works. Once we hit the late game in a tvp situation, they will have equal number of harvestors. But terran can mule so they can exceed the number of harvestors. While protoss has chrono boost, protoss can reinforce their unit the fastest and in a very mobile fashion. It is just how the macro mechanic of the game work and both side have advantage and they just need to use it. Sure their will be imbalance if everything isnt the same but that just how it is. I was directly talking about the raven and about how crappy of a unit it is. The example you gave is kinda illogical since observer needed for detection and warp prism doesnt give detection. But I think I know what your saying and my answer is WHY is that unit there in the first place? Imo, I been questioning the existences of the raven. Every race has mobile detection but terran doesnt get it because they have scan but scan is suppose to be used for emergency only or atleast that how their suppose to be used. If the observer was in that situation, I would question the existences of why the observer is there too. As of now, the raven only has very very little use in the meta game. They can either be used for PDD in 1-1-1 allin or they their PDD can be used for viking air battle in TvT. That really about. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:24 SheaR619 wrote: Well your talking about the entire race in general being imbalance. I never talk about race directly. It just how terran mechanic works. Once we hit the late game in a tvp situation, they will have equal number of harvestors. But terran can mule so they can exceed the number of harvestors. While protoss has chrono boost, protoss can reinforce their unit the fastest and in a very mobile fashion. It is just how the macro mechanic of the game work and both side have advantage and they just need to use it. Sure their will be imbalance if everything isnt the same but that just how it is. I was directly talking about the raven and about how crappy of a unit it is. The example you gave is kinda illogical since observer needed for detection and warp prism doesnt give detection. But I think I know what your saying and my answer is WHY is that unit there in the first place? Imo, I been questioning the existences of the raven. Every race has mobile detection but terran doesnt get it because they have scan but scan is suppose to be used for emergency only or atleast that how their suppose to be used. If the observer was in that situation, I would question the existences of why the observer is there too. As of now, the raven only has very very little use in the meta game. They can either be used for PDD in 1-1-1 allin or they their PDD can be used for viking air battle in TvT. That really about. No, I dont think that the raven is crap. Its an okay unit. Not bad, not really good. And I'm of the firm belief, that the terran race has never really been struggling, so some of their units are never needed, since the standard composition works well enough (in other words, why make a raven, if scans and EMPs give you detection with 0 penalty and much less hassle)? If terran were to get UP for a couple of months, then they would find uses for units like the raven. Terrans are not nearly experimenting as much, as for example protoss, because they were never put (through nerfs of the own race/buffs of the opposing races) in a desperate situation, where they needed to try everything. How long did it take for terrans to realize that ghosts are awesome vs protoss? 9 months maybe? And all the while protoss have been using HTs...less than the colossus tech, but still they were using HTs. | ||
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untilMay
Korea (South)190 Posts
On August 22 2011 11:11 IVN wrote: How so? T is the least gas intensive race in the game. ---> they can afford it, only scanning hast even less of a penalty. Actually it is ridiculous to think a Terran will get a Raven because the amount of time and investment it requires for such a slow, immobile, and paper-weak unit to do nothing but allow you to mule more (which isn't needed in a positional max 200-200 battle) is sub optimal. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:44 IVN wrote: No, I dont think that the raven is crap. Its an okay unit. Not bad, not really good. And I'm of the firm belief, that the terran race has never really been struggling, so some of their units are never needed, since the standard composition works well enough (in other words, why make a raven, if scans and EMPs give you detection with 0 penalty and much less hassle)? If terran were to get UP for a couple of months, then they would find uses for units like the raven. Terrans are not nearly experimenting as much, as for example protoss, because they were never put (through nerfs of the own race/buffs of the opposing races) in a desperate situation, where they needed to try everything. How long did it take for terrans to realize that ghosts are awesome vs protoss? 9 months maybe? And all the while protoss have been using HTs...less than the colossus tech, but still they were using HTs. Terran never used ghost was mainly because protoss went collosi 90% of the time. This make terran not experiment with ghost. If terran go ghost tech first before viking, then they auto lose because they wont get the necessary amount of viking out in time. This was largely due to the protoss fault for not experimenting. This lead them abusing warp in which lead it to be nerf. This again went back to collosi heavy but then with experimenting and timing, it lead to the revival of the HT. But by learning how to use HT properly and not imba-ly, they became better player. This was when terran struggled like hell. This was probably during the reign of MC and they struggled for a while because protoss got better at holding timing pushes and drops. I remember when terran were QQing that protoss late game was impossible and that mech was the only way since bio just melt before HT and collosi. Because of this situation, terran started to incorporate ghost and this lead to the stupid meta game right now where if a good terran and good protoss choose not to 1 base all-in, it will lead to a 200-200 food ball smashing each other because a good protoss will not die to drop or timing pushes and protoss will not attack because they dont have a reason to until they have the mega death ball. This lead to the battle between EMP and HT. This was why ghost were never used because they were never needed because of protoss player sticking with collosi. Overall, the races will be up and down in term of win but that what keep the game exciting because the meta game will always shift. I am sure, in 2 month someone will fix PvT and protoss will be up again. I just want to say that their were time when terran struggle, it was just not as severe as other race may have experienced. | ||
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eXdeath
France66 Posts
What do you think about something like this : Guardian shield absorbs EMP. EMP cancels Guardian shield but doesn't do damage to units when doing so. Ghosts would have to use 2 EMPs to damage an army under Guardian shield. This would make : sentry + 1 ht > 1 ghost and 2 ghosts > sentry + 1 ht. And maybe would we see crazy micro battles where the protoss player has to reactivate his guardian shield quickly after the first EMP landed. I'm afraid this would create other balance problems but i'd like to know your opinion about it. | ||
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locant
Australia45 Posts
On August 22 2011 13:39 Slab wrote: Perhaps replace the KA upgrade with a templar movement speed upgrade? Maybe it could also make them morph into archons faster while we're at it The reason they are so slow is i assume because of how high their damage output is with storm. Infestors are way to fast for the amount of damage they do but thats a different story. | ||
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