This isnt discussion of balance.This is discussion about you. Play Terran. No one really gives a shit
Yeah, true. Sorry about that.
But in terms of TvP balance I feel the following are the problems:
1) Micro and control over the out come of battles
I'm not going to lie. Terran micro past the early game is a lot harder than Protoss micro, simply because terran kites, protoss a-moves. I think this is more a design flaw than a balance issue so to speak because while this can be balanced, it gives terran the tools to perform well (higher skill cap). Protoss a-moving chargelots might be easy, but there is nothing, easy or difficult you can do to improve your chargelots DPS/longevity.
2) Ghosts vs. HTs
Again with the micro, terran EMPing at max range (using EMP radius) is difficult, but they have the tools to entirely shut down storm/feedback because of the extra 3 range. Again, not much protoss can do about except hope the terran screws up
3) Versatility
I think this applies to TvZ as well. As people have said, terran just feels much more polished and complete. They have a ton of options in terms of openers and the array of all-ins is truly astounding, 1-1-1 aside. For example, terran has banshees. Do terran need banshees? Could terran play a perfectly normal macro game and compete at a high level without banshees? Sure. In TvP, the same can be said about hellions. Yes some players go mech which incorporates them but terran doesn't need them so to speak. Protoss has unused units (warp prism/carrier, often stargate entirely), but the difference is those units either have no synergy (warp prism, but nothing to drop [I honestly feel like blizz just said, ok protoss drop ship... hey they have warp gates lets give it a power field and call it a day], or just straight up aren't that great (void rays that aren't part of an allin, carriers pretty much period). Banshees and hellions on the other hand, are great, BFH are amazing.
Along with the versatility of their unit choices and composition, Terran units themselves are pretty damn versatile. BFH might be the best harass in the game but boy are they good in a straight up fight against zerglings and zealots, which will always be made. Banshees are less powerful in a straight battle but still have amazing dps. On the other hand mutalisks are pretty bad in a fight (good against things that can't hit them, lol) and DTs are 100% useless once detection is present ( I mean in a straight battle, not map control and still harassment; and yes, archons are good). Marines and marauders are great for dropping/hit and run tactics, yet also perform well in battles. Medivacs heal units and provide great opportunities for drops. Even ghosts and vikings can harass (do vikings really need to be able to land? seriously?)
This isn't to say there AREN'T (harass) options for Protoss and Zerg, but compared to Terran they look very sad indeed.
On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote: If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved
TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran.
Dont get me started on PvP.
The matchup is pretty weak. I think Zealot Charge needs to be something capable of seperating good Protosses from bad Protosses: Lower the cooldown when autocast is turned off.
I think considering that alot of the protoss unit already have ability, it will be too much to handle. Although it does sound interesting. I guess it might encourage protoss to step up their apm more :D. But yes, PvAnything is retarded. TvZ is where the action at imo and I think it fairly balance.
On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote: If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved
TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran.
I think considering that alot of the protoss unit already have ability, it will be too much to handle. Although it does sound interesting. I guess it might encourage protoss to step up their apm more :D. But yes, PvAnything is retarded. TvZ is where the action at imo and I think it fairly balance.
I agree with the charge lower cool down off autocast... I mean anything to let P do something against all that kiting bio. I don't really think that it will be too much because blink stalker is just blink foward/a move. zealots: a move. collo: a move. sentries: guardian shield, see if MM is in FF range (probably not while kiting) and a move. HT: ghost vs. HT pretty much over by the time hard core kiting starts and this would be useful, most likely just moving them foward in a vain attempt to keep up haha.
This isnt discussion of balance.This is discussion about you. Play Terran. No one really gives a shit
Yeah, true. Sorry about that.
But in terms of TvP balance I feel the following are the problems:
1) Micro and control over the out come of battles
I'm not going to lie. Terran micro past the early game is a lot harder than Protoss micro, simply because terran kites, protoss a-moves. I think this is more a design flaw than a balance issue so to speak because while this can be balanced, it gives terran the tools to perform well (higher skill cap). Protoss a-moving chargelots might be easy, but there is nothing, easy or difficult you can do to improve your chargelots DPS/longevity.
2) Ghosts vs. HTs
Again with the micro, terran EMPing at max range (using EMP radius) is difficult, but they have the tools to entirely shut down storm/feedback because of the extra 3 range. Again, not much protoss can do about except hope the terran screws up
3) Versatility
I think this applies to TvZ as well. As people have said, terran just feels much more polished and complete. They have a ton of options in terms of openers and the array of all-ins is truly astounding, 1-1-1 aside. For example, terran has banshees. Do terran need banshees? Could terran play a perfectly normal macro game and compete at a high level without banshees? Sure. In TvP, the same can be said about hellions. Yes some players go mech which incorporates them but terran doesn't need them so to speak. Protoss has unused units (warp prism/carrier, often stargate entirely), but the difference is those units either have no synergy (warp prism, but nothing to drop [I honestly feel like blizz just said, ok protoss drop ship... hey they have warp gates lets give it a power field and call it a day], or just straight up aren't that great (void rays that aren't part of an allin, carriers pretty much period). Banshees and hellions on the other hand, are great, BFH are amazing.
Along with the versatility of their unit choices and composition, Terran units themselves are pretty damn versatile. BFH might be the best harass in the game but boy are they good in a straight up fight against zerglings and zealots, which will always be made. Banshees are less powerful in a straight battle but still have amazing dps. On the other hand mutalisks are pretty bad in a fight (good against things that can't hit them, lol) and DTs are 100% useless once detection is present ( I mean in a straight battle, not map control and still harassment; and yes, archons are good). Marines and marauders are great for dropping/hit and run tactics, yet also perform well in battles. Medivacs heal units and provide great opportunities for drops. Even ghosts and vikings can harass (do vikings really need to be able to land? seriously?)
This isn't to say there AREN'T (harass) options for Protoss and Zerg, but compared to Terran they look very sad indeed.
Your listing pseudo facts then coming to the conclusion that Protoss and Zerg doesnt have as many harass units. I don't know what kind of discussion your trying to generate here.
EDIT: This isnt directed at huntz: Ghosts don't auto win vs HT. Go Colossus first then get HT, and only a couple. Feedback medivacs with the HT and if you get a storm off thats a bonus to the DPS of the colossus. The Terran will have a hard time making ghosts/medivacs/vikings and upgrades while you can just stop making colossus at 4, then get a second robo to make 4 more after any battles. If you kill all the Terrans tech while keeping yours alive, you should be in an advantageous position simply because Warp gates will allow you to warp in ~ 2 archons, 6 chargelots and 5 stalkers. If he lost all his medivacs and ghosts in the battle you should be lookin pretty.
On August 22 2011 04:32 Spicy Pepper wrote: If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
Make raven not useless beside their one purpose of 1-1-1 and it a deal. You clearly dont realize how bad raven are. Terran dont even get them late game TvP DT harass or TvZ posibility of burrow banelings or just getting rid of creep tumor. Pros are willing to burn scan over and over than have a raven. That just really how bad they are lol. Make HSM +1 range or cost 100 mana and we can have your PDD swap with the HSM.
Because they can afford it. And in a balanced game they shouldnt be able to afford it.
They don't, but they have the potential. What I mean is that if the Terran hits all the EMPs, there's nothing the protoss player can do about it, because the EMPs will go off first. It's clearer if you look at the other side of it. Ignoring PvZ for a moment, if feedback was 15 range there would be obvious problems. Yes the protoss COULD miss a feedback, but nobody wants to hear that.
So, Hydralisks, are they used in _any_ matchup now? Obviously not in ZvT, but after the Infestor buff they seem to have gone completely out of vogue in ZvZ and in ZvP the Hydra was never good anyway and better styles have emerged. It's like the most useless unit in the game now.
On August 22 2011 04:32 Spicy Pepper wrote: If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
Make raven not useless beside their one purpose of 1-1-1 and it a deal. You clearly dont realize how bad raven are. Terran dont even get them late game TvP DT harass or TvZ posibility of burrow banelings or just getting rid of creep tumor. Pros are willing to burn scan over and over than have a raven. That just really how bad they are lol. Make HSM +1 range or cost 100 mana and we can have your PDD swap with the HSM.
Because they can afford it. And in a balanced game they shouldnt be able to afford it.
On August 22 2011 04:32 Spicy Pepper wrote: If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
Make raven not useless beside their one purpose of 1-1-1 and it a deal. You clearly dont realize how bad raven are. Terran dont even get them late game TvP DT harass or TvZ posibility of burrow banelings or just getting rid of creep tumor. Pros are willing to burn scan over and over than have a raven. That just really how bad they are lol. Make HSM +1 range or cost 100 mana and we can have your PDD swap with the HSM.
Because they can afford it. And in a balanced game they shouldnt be able to afford it.
But they cant afford a raven? hmmm....
How so? T is the least gas intensive race in the game.
---> they can afford it, only scanning hast even less of a penalty.
Below are my suggested changes for Infestors. These are just one part of an entire HotS dreampatch I am currently working on that I'll probably post in its own thread sometime this week when I get it more streamlined.
Infestor - Death animation now with exposed wriggling gut parasites! * Infested Terran - Damage reduced from 8 to 6. - Can no longer be cast while burrowed. * Fungal Growth - Now has a bloom effect - spreads from the center of AoE instead of hitting all targets at once. Takes 0.9 seconds to complete. - Slows affected units movement speed by 150% instead of snaring them in place. - Duration increased from 4 to 6 seconds. - Can no longer reduce a non-Biological unit to less than 1 health. - Bonus damage vs Armored removed. Deals 48 damage to Air. - Ignores Protoss shields. * Neural Parasite - 15 second maximum duration removed. - Now drains 2 energy/second while being channeled. - Can be cast while burrowed. The tendril is visible to all players and reveal the infestors position but it cannot be targeted without detection.
I'll post my suggested changes for Protoss and Terran Tier 1 units next as the current trending topic for imbalance seems to be TvP. I feel like it needs to be tackled from the bottom up (i.e. the problems are sentries, stalkers, marines, marauders, less so ghosts and HTs).
On August 22 2011 06:46 TheGreenMachine wrote: Do you guys think protoss needs some better "i finished macroing and theres no battle, what else to do?"
Zerg has creep tumors, overlord spread, ling spread
terran has nice cheap harass like hellions, reaper, banshee
protoss has spread out pylons?
Then theres dt, blink stalkers, and phoenix but they require a big amount of investment compared to the other 2 races. What do u guys think?
On August 22 2011 10:14 hugman wrote: So, Hydralisks, are they used in _any_ matchup now? Obviously not in ZvT, but after the Infestor buff they seem to have gone completely out of vogue in ZvZ and in ZvP the Hydra was never good anyway and better styles have emerged. It's like the most useless unit in the game now.
Well, I would like to introduce you to my friend the carrier.
But really, a unit that takes two minutes to make and requires ridiculous tech to get too. At least you can nydus all in with hydras.
On August 22 2011 11:14 GreatestThreat wrote: Below are my suggested changes for Infestors. These are just one part of an entire HotS dreampatch I am currently working on that I'll probably post in its own thread sometime this week when I get it more streamlined.
Infestor - Death animation now with exposed wriggling gut parasites! * Infested Terran - Damage reduced from 8 to 6. - Can no longer be cast while burrowed. * Fungal Growth - Now has a bloom effect - spreads from the center of AoE instead of hitting all targets at once. Takes 0.9 seconds to complete. - Slows affected units movement speed by 150% instead of snaring them in place. - Duration increased from 4 to 6 seconds. - Can no longer reduce a non-Biological unit to less than 1 health. - Bonus damage vs Armored removed. Deals 48 damage to Air. - Ignores Protoss shields. * Neural Parasite - 15 second maximum duration removed. - Now drains 2 energy/second while being channeled. - Can be cast while burrowed. The tendril is visible to all players and reveal the infestors position but it cannot be targeted without detection.
I'll post my suggested changes for Protoss and Terran Tier 1 units next as the current trending topic for imbalance seems to be TvP. I feel like it needs to be tackled from the bottom up (i.e. the problems are sentries, stalkers, marines, marauders, less so ghosts and HTs).
Neural parasite while burrowed would be ridiculously hard to deal with. It means infestors can stay below the ball of roaches/lings, which means range is less of an issue for it, and trying to focus it down to kill it would be hard because you'd have to click beneath the units to get at it.
Also, 150% slowed movement speed? So... they're going to move at negative speed now?
And what about blink? If it doesn't lock things down, can I blink while fungaled like I used to be able to?
There's so many implications to the changes you're suggesting, and I don't feel they're properly justified in any way... yes, infestors are ridiculously strong at the moment, but I don't think you're going about fixing them the right way.
On August 22 2011 04:32 Spicy Pepper wrote: If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
Make raven not useless beside their one purpose of 1-1-1 and it a deal. You clearly dont realize how bad raven are. Terran dont even get them late game TvP DT harass or TvZ posibility of burrow banelings or just getting rid of creep tumor. Pros are willing to burn scan over and over than have a raven. That just really how bad they are lol. Make HSM +1 range or cost 100 mana and we can have your PDD swap with the HSM.
Because they can afford it. And in a balanced game they shouldnt be able to afford it.
But they cant afford a raven? hmmm....
How so? T is the least gas intensive race in the game.
---> they can afford it, only scanning hast even less of a penalty.
Exactly. You basically agree with me that raven sucks so bad that they arent even worth getting even for detection lol. Terran are the not that gas intensive so wouldnt raven be a good way to spend the surplus of gas? If terran isnt gas intensive, then they will need every damn mineral they can. So even more reason to make the raven. But raven sucks so bad that terran would rather scan and lose the opportunity cost of having 10 more marines than make one.
In other words, raven fail at their job as a mobile detection and switching SM with PDD would make them completely useless unless you some how buff SM if you are to swap it.
On August 22 2011 11:14 GreatestThreat wrote: Below are my suggested changes for Infestors. These are just one part of an entire HotS dreampatch I am currently working on that I'll probably post in its own thread sometime this week when I get it more streamlined.
Infestor - Death animation now with exposed wriggling gut parasites! * Infested Terran - Damage reduced from 8 to 6. - Can no longer be cast while burrowed. * Fungal Growth - Now has a bloom effect - spreads from the center of AoE instead of hitting all targets at once. Takes 0.9 seconds to complete. - Slows affected units movement speed by 150% instead of snaring them in place. - Duration increased from 4 to 6 seconds. - Can no longer reduce a non-Biological unit to less than 1 health. - Bonus damage vs Armored removed. Deals 48 damage to Air. - Ignores Protoss shields. * Neural Parasite - 15 second maximum duration removed. - Now drains 2 energy/second while being channeled. - Can be cast while burrowed. The tendril is visible to all players and reveal the infestors position but it cannot be targeted without detection.
I'll post my suggested changes for Protoss and Terran Tier 1 units next as the current trending topic for imbalance seems to be TvP. I feel like it needs to be tackled from the bottom up (i.e. the problems are sentries, stalkers, marines, marauders, less so ghosts and HTs).
Neural parasite while burrowed would be ridiculously hard to deal with. It means infestors can stay below the ball of roaches/lings, which means range is less of an issue for it, and trying to focus it down to kill it would be hard because you'd have to click beneath the units to get at it.
Also, 150% slowed movement speed? So... they're going to move at negative speed now?
And what about blink? If it doesn't lock things down, can I blink while fungaled like I used to be able to?
There's so many implications to the changes you're suggesting, and I don't feel they're properly justified in any way... yes, infestors are ridiculously strong at the moment, but I don't think you're going about fixing them the right way.
The thing is, current numbers are showing Zerg as being balanced relatively near 50% against the other two races. I understand that Infestors are an incredibly strong unit, and people don't like it's versatility and overall strength, but without it the Zerg race falls back into a state of being underpowered, as opposed to relatively balanced. I don't know if any of you have looked at the TLPD statistics, but they seem to point to the fact that Zerg is relatively fine.
If you change the Infestor, you risk unbalancing the current state of balance in the Zerg matchups. Yes, more than likely something else could be discovered to repair things, but until such time as the Infestor is shown to ACTUALLY imbalance matchups (55% or more against both races for three or more consecutive months), it really needs to be left be.
On August 22 2011 11:14 GreatestThreat wrote: Below are my suggested changes for Infestors. These are just one part of an entire HotS dreampatch I am currently working on that I'll probably post in its own thread sometime this week when I get it more streamlined.
Infestor - Death animation now with exposed wriggling gut parasites! * Infested Terran - Damage reduced from 8 to 6. - Can no longer be cast while burrowed. * Fungal Growth - Now has a bloom effect - spreads from the center of AoE instead of hitting all targets at once. Takes 0.9 seconds to complete. - Slows affected units movement speed by 150% instead of snaring them in place. - Duration increased from 4 to 6 seconds. - Can no longer reduce a non-Biological unit to less than 1 health. - Bonus damage vs Armored removed. Deals 48 damage to Air. - Ignores Protoss shields. * Neural Parasite - 15 second maximum duration removed. - Now drains 2 energy/second while being channeled. - Can be cast while burrowed. The tendril is visible to all players and reveal the infestors position but it cannot be targeted without detection.
I'll post my suggested changes for Protoss and Terran Tier 1 units next as the current trending topic for imbalance seems to be TvP. I feel like it needs to be tackled from the bottom up (i.e. the problems are sentries, stalkers, marines, marauders, less so ghosts and HTs).
Neural parasite while burrowed would be ridiculously hard to deal with. It means infestors can stay below the ball of roaches/lings, which means range is less of an issue for it, and trying to focus it down to kill it would be hard because you'd have to click beneath the units to get at it.
Also, 150% slowed movement speed? So... they're going to move at negative speed now?
And what about blink? If it doesn't lock things down, can I blink while fungaled like I used to be able to?
There's so many implications to the changes you're suggesting, and I don't feel they're properly justified in any way... yes, infestors are ridiculously strong at the moment, but I don't think you're going about fixing them the right way.
The thing is, current numbers are showing Zerg as being balanced relatively near 50% against the other two races. I understand that Infestors are an incredibly strong unit, and people don't like it's versatility and overall strength, but without it the Zerg race falls back into a state of being underpowered, as opposed to relatively balanced. I don't know if any of you have looked at the TLPD statistics, but they seem to point to the fact that Zerg is relatively fine.
If you change the Infestor, you risk unbalancing the current state of balance in the Zerg matchups. Yes, more than likely something else could be discovered to repair things, but until such time as the Infestor is shown to ACTUALLY imbalance matchups (55% or more against both races for three or more consecutive months), it really needs to be left be.
Well, according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090, as of July, toss is way behind the other two races and terran is dominating both its matchups. I don't know how credible those statistics are, but if they're true, it really is very disconcerting about the state of the game.
It was smart of you to create this, OP. To all those who say this will turn into a whine section of TL, Chill himself allowed the establishment of this thread and will doubtlessly enforce the rules.
On August 22 2011 11:14 GreatestThreat wrote: Below are my suggested changes for Infestors. These are just one part of an entire HotS dreampatch I am currently working on that I'll probably post in its own thread sometime this week when I get it more streamlined.
Infestor - Death animation now with exposed wriggling gut parasites! * Infested Terran - Damage reduced from 8 to 6. - Can no longer be cast while burrowed. * Fungal Growth - Now has a bloom effect - spreads from the center of AoE instead of hitting all targets at once. Takes 0.9 seconds to complete. - Slows affected units movement speed by 150% instead of snaring them in place. - Duration increased from 4 to 6 seconds. - Can no longer reduce a non-Biological unit to less than 1 health. - Bonus damage vs Armored removed. Deals 48 damage to Air. - Ignores Protoss shields. * Neural Parasite - 15 second maximum duration removed. - Now drains 2 energy/second while being channeled. - Can be cast while burrowed. The tendril is visible to all players and reveal the infestors position but it cannot be targeted without detection.
I'll post my suggested changes for Protoss and Terran Tier 1 units next as the current trending topic for imbalance seems to be TvP. I feel like it needs to be tackled from the bottom up (i.e. the problems are sentries, stalkers, marines, marauders, less so ghosts and HTs).
Neural parasite while burrowed would be ridiculously hard to deal with. It means infestors can stay below the ball of roaches/lings, which means range is less of an issue for it, and trying to focus it down to kill it would be hard because you'd have to click beneath the units to get at it.
Also, 150% slowed movement speed? So... they're going to move at negative speed now?
And what about blink? If it doesn't lock things down, can I blink while fungaled like I used to be able to?
There's so many implications to the changes you're suggesting, and I don't feel they're properly justified in any way... yes, infestors are ridiculously strong at the moment, but I don't think you're going about fixing them the right way.
The thing is, current numbers are showing Zerg as being balanced relatively near 50% against the other two races. I understand that Infestors are an incredibly strong unit, and people don't like it's versatility and overall strength, but without it the Zerg race falls back into a state of being underpowered, as opposed to relatively balanced. I don't know if any of you have looked at the TLPD statistics, but they seem to point to the fact that Zerg is relatively fine.
If you change the Infestor, you risk unbalancing the current state of balance in the Zerg matchups. Yes, more than likely something else could be discovered to repair things, but until such time as the Infestor is shown to ACTUALLY imbalance matchups (55% or more against both races for three or more consecutive months), it really needs to be left be.
Well, according to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090, as of July, toss is way behind the other two races and terran is dominating both its matchups. I don't know how credible those statistics are, but if they're true, it really is very disconcerting about the state of the game.
The thing is, I don't think anyone honestly thinks the infestor is too strong versus protoss. Most of the (valid) complaints are from terran players, and are talking about a specific combination (brood lord / infestor), and for very specific reasons (the argument is that there is just no way to deal with broodlords if vikings are easily negated by infestors). And it's not like Z is dominating vs T either...
According to these stats, Zergs win slightly more often against Protoss, but I'd be really curious about how the infestor plays into this. As far as I can tell most ZvPs are decided before the first infestor even comes out. Late game Protoss definitely has the answers to infestor broodlord too.
EPT
