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What about an old suggestion for making Protoss more flexible: Make it possible for Sentries to hallucinate an observer (with detection) for 5 or 8 in-game seconds. This would make templar and (more importantly for defending against 1/1/1) air tech more viable, since you could survive against cloaked units without a robo. Against 1/1/1, Protoss would then be able to make Phoenixes AND scout AND be safe against cloaked units.
Protoss need more flexibility anyway.
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Forgot to include that medivacs heal at 9 health per second... which compared to stalker and sentry damage makes life very difficult. NOT unmanageable... just difficult.
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On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider.
i only read the bottom part of your post because its to long, but making marines fatter would change zvt. The marines right now get more clumped up so banelings connect easier and fungals. If they were fatter, zvt would favor terran even more because they are not as clumped and would be harder to get the splash damage done.
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On August 22 2011 04:32 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:24 Williammm wrote:On August 22 2011 04:19 ondik wrote:On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost  It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete. ...except the ravenless 1-1-1 is probably stronger, so PDD doesn't change anything here. How is the ravenless 1/1/1 stronger? PDD DENIES stalker shots during battles... what other unit can Terran throw out to have the same effect? imo instead of making PDD an upgrade, just make the duration 30 seconds so that position the pdd holds isn't a death zone. From what I've read and saw lately, the ideal protoss reaction was to FE and mass zealots+some sentries+immortals with very few stalkers (like 4-5 stalkers when the push with 3 banshees comes).
Not just FE, but a nexus first FE. Thats cheesy and risky as fuck against terran, especially on maps that arent humongous like taldarim
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On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider.
Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy.
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On August 22 2011 05:02 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider. Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy.
How will you fix blink stalker now in PvZ? How you will fix being able to FF slow ass roaches 100% now that sentry faster (since roach is slow to begin with)? This will kill all early aggression possibility from zerg. Think about other match up as well....
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to me 1-1-1 seems perfectly balanced if it werent for the scvs
thats why this doesnt work vs zerg because of banelings
so if they would take back reaver instead of collosus
i just hope...
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I think the real problem with 1/1/1 vs Protoss is the Reactor-Marines. The tech units are flexible, and can be easily adjusted to accommodate the Protoss unit composition.
The recurring theme in every attack, however, is approximately 1 metric fuckload of Marines. They make pulling Probes pretty much useless once they reach that mass of 25+, and have a relatively easy time with Zealots, do amazing at protecting vs Stalkers etc. And this is without Stim or Combat Shield...
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So about the Warp prism. How about giving it 1 air armor instead of 0. I mean why not at least change it from 100/40 (0) armor to 80/60 (1) armor? This would make it a little more durable vs marines but still a fortified paper plane against hydras etc.
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On August 22 2011 05:02 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider. Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy.
I don't know about increasing stalker fire speed so much as just decreasing the firing animation to make kiting more feasible.
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On August 22 2011 05:09 Zuxo wrote:
So about the Warp prism. How about giving it 1 air armor instead of 0. I mean why not at least change it from 100/40 (0) armor to 80/60 (1) armor? This would make it a little more durable vs marines but still a fortified paper plane against hydras etc.
Thats actually not to bad of an idea compare to the other 90% of the post on this thread since your considering all match up. I think this could work very well and if not just adjust the HP and shield ratio till it does.
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On August 22 2011 05:06 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:02 thesauceishot wrote:On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider. Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy. How will you fix blink stalker now in PvZ? How you will fix being able to FF slow ass roaches 100% now that sentry faster (since roach is slow to begin with)? This will kill all early aggression possibility from zerg. Think about other match up as well....
The sentry movement speed wouldn't really change THAT much. I think you're exaggerating that effect. Faster firing speed for stalkers would definitely upset the balance of PvZ a little bit, but roaches are still pretty damn cost effective against stalkers, and if you get 2 good fungals, then blink is a waste. Also, speedlings are really good against the small numbers of blink stalkers that might harass you until you get infestors.
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On August 22 2011 05:15 babjengi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:06 SheaR619 wrote:On August 22 2011 05:02 thesauceishot wrote:On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider. Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy. How will you fix blink stalker now in PvZ? How you will fix being able to FF slow ass roaches 100% now that sentry faster (since roach is slow to begin with)? This will kill all early aggression possibility from zerg. Think about other match up as well.... The sentry movement speed wouldn't really change THAT much. I think you're exaggerating that effect. Faster firing speed for stalkers would definitely upset the balance of PvZ a little bit, but roaches are still pretty damn cost effective against stalkers, and if you get 2 good fungals, then blink is a waste. Also, speedlings are really good against the small numbers of blink stalkers that might harass you until you get infestors.
It really depends on how fast they increase the sentry speed. But increasing the stalker DPS will destroy the balance of PvZ since it stalker heavy. Roach are cost effective against stalker but if they have blink then stalker are more cost effective. Of course fungal does rape stalker but fungal rapes everything so you cant really say much about fungal.
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If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved
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On August 21 2011 23:27 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +please god don't play "the better race." That's just silly. Protoss are a fine race, zerg are fine, and terran are fine.
If you're not exceedingly high masters, the "balance" of the three races has nothing to do with it, and things like macro are the problem. If you can't build probes, you won't be able to build SCV's any better. Well I don't think its silly if one race is better, and frankly you've done nothing to show me why ghosts out range HTs so badly, why Terran needs SO MANY harassment options that are a relatively small investment AND cost effective in straight up battles when compared to DTs/phoenix and gateway drops, and why Terran has so many all-ins, one of them having extreme success in the GSL. Even if its only a psychological thing, I want to play a race that I feel is strong and equal to the others. I did play a custom as Terran and it was very difficult because I'm just not used to it. I wasn't following a build or anything, I called down the classic 10 mules and floated four thousand minerals. But I could attack whenever because I could retreat easily and fall back on bunkers and repair. I could drop. I didn't have to worry about defending drops or splitting my army. You just have so much more control over the game.
This isnt discussion of balance.This is discussion about you. Play Terran. No one really gives a shit.
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On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote:
If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved
TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran.
Dont get me started on PvP.
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On August 22 2011 05:32 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote:
If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran. Dont get me started on PvP.
Yeah man, that's how i feel too :S.
Man just saw Mouz.Mana against ThorZaiN. Ouch
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 22 2011 05:32 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote:
If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran. Dont get me started on PvP.
The matchup is pretty weak. I think Zealot Charge needs to be something capable of seperating good Protosses from bad Protosses: Lower the cooldown when autocast is turned off.
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On August 22 2011 05:41 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:32 SheaR619 wrote:On August 22 2011 05:26 Zorgaz wrote:
If you want to fix PvT (seems this is the matchup most of you are complaining about after MC's fall) you can't just buff P and think it will solve anything. Things need to be handled very delicately.
Half of the suggestions you are coming up with would do more harm then good xd.
P needs some change i feel.
When i play TvZ or TvT or ZvT for the matter i really enjoy it. (ZvZ not so much xd)
But man i don't enjoy any of the matchups where P is involved TvP right now is just darn right stupid. If do 1-1-1 then it end in 1 big push and go either way. If terran expand then there will be NO AGGRESSION possible if protoss is good. Then the game will go to 200-200 death ball and that will decide the game. It so retarded that terran cant do any damage because toss can FF and terran dies. Toss dont have to attack cause they favor the late game when they have their tech and due to the drop possibility that terran can do. So both player just usually end up maxing out and the game end in 1 big push. Which come down to EMP and Storm which is meh...I just feel the match up is kinda boring. Protoss should be able to be more aggressive same as terran. Dont get me started on PvP. The matchup is pretty weak. I think Zealot Charge needs to be something capable of seperating good Protosses from bad Protosses: Lower the cooldown when autocast is turned off.
I think considering that alot of the protoss unit already have ability, it will be too much to handle. Although it does sound interesting. I guess it might encourage protoss to step up their apm more :D. But yes, PvAnything is retarded. TvZ is where the action at imo and I think it fairly balance.
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On August 22 2011 05:06 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:02 thesauceishot wrote:On August 22 2011 04:46 babjengi wrote:
I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider. Pretty good assessment. Along with these balance suggestions I might add faster stalker firing, increased sentry move speed, and amulet giving 12.5 energy. How will you fix blink stalker now in PvZ? How you will fix being able to FF slow ass roaches 100% now that sentry faster (since roach is slow to begin with)? This will kill all early aggression possibility from zerg. Think about other match up as well....
Faster firing stalkers would make stalkers better against lots of speedlings, and it would help even roaches being incredibly cost effective against non-blink stalkers. I don't think there is a blink stalker problem in PvZ right now. Roach/ling with spines is effective enough to delay, and sometimes even shut down a blink stalker push, until the Zerg can get speed roaches, burrow movement, hydras, or infestors. Ling/hydra, or ling/infestor, or infestor/roach are all super effective at dealing with blink stalkers. Blink stalkers can be strong and win games with timings, but you cannot maintain pure blink stalker past the timing windows.
Sentry speed will not make FF's OP, lol. What it will do is help sentries keep up with zealots so it will be harder for speedlings to catch and pick them off. It's hard moving out with slow sentries in your army because every time you move out (even just to a Xel'Naga tower) you risk getting your whole, gas expensive army getting surrounded and killed by a bunch of zerglings. Even if you put down solid FF's to kill the initial group of lings, Zerg can build another wave and catch up to the Protoss army and surround again.
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