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On August 22 2011 03:34 Bagi wrote:The reason templar play is more common is because archons were buffed and became so beastly, plus it offers other benefits like charge and faster DT. I'd argue its the more varied tech path right now, but it doesn't mean colossi are no longer viable.
The way Terrans molest collossi with 2port upgraded vikings is what makes it unviable. People were starting to use Templar more - in spite of the KA nerf - before the archon buff because collo builds weren't working anymore.
I agree that if you can get out 2robo collo plus templar then it's all groovy but that's lategame and everything before that is extremely difficult now.
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The problem with ghost >>> templar is that protoss just doesn't have a counter to ghosts. Ghosts do more than just counter HTs, they drastically reduce the effective HP of the protoss army. In addition they provide a small potential for harass with cloak and nuke (but what terran unit doesn't do that >.>).
Collosus don't counter ghosts. The only reason they're good is because in the early game to early midgame the terran won't have the viking numbers he'd like to deal with them. But its by no means impossible or even exceedingly difficult to defeat a fast collo push, and late game HT/collo vs. viking/ghost is going to favor the terran because it ends up MMMGV vs. gateway/collo. Obviously thats an overstatement but HTs really don't touch ghosts (or anything else) if the terran hits his EMPs. Don't forget you can land your vikings for more DPS than a stalker, once you've killed all the collo  (and they provide harass too, seriously wtf lol)
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On August 22 2011 03:18 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote:
That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council. It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything. EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy.
Uh, meet a protoss unit called the sentry, the only way protoss can survive early game.
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Vision is very important in ghost v HT battles, esp since HTs are so immobile (while the rest of the p and t armies are very mobile).
Scans are affordable with high availability mid-late game, while observers are very fragile and can easily be picked off (cloak ghosts become very deadly once obs are gone).
The chargelot archon mix is not without weaknesses. Back in NASL Puma got very good reads on those charge timings and sniped the twilight council at very crucial timings in 2 of the games. Puma then processed to roll over the no charge zlot heavy army with sutterstep movements that even a diamond leaguer can perform. Going chargelot archons also allow the terran to build more medivacs (vs a fast enough colo tech which forces all the gas to be channeled into the reactor starport), a unit that white-ra considered to be instrumental in terran bio play (and also the unit that gives bio its deadly harassment potential).
I see TvP as a game of the terran building "the right unit mix". Once you have enough vikings, colossi become a liability: very costly yet fragile units that eats up all your resources and supplies. The same can be said with HT/Archon vs ghosts. To counter this the protoss *need* to do something with the timing (when you have the tech and before T have enough counter units). As Mr.Bitter mentioned in today's game, Protoss can also make good use of a hard tech switch and attempt to buy themselves another timing.
@stim
I would like to see stim being a little more punishing to stop terrans from stimming their whole army at the sight of a few enemy units. Selective partial stimming should be a skill required by bio users.
@Mules
I do not mind seeing command centers come with mules, similar to a nexus. In exchange the powers of a mule can be weakened. OC can still be upgraded for scans and supply drop.
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From what I've read the past few pages, the game should be balanced so that the protoss still has an equal chance to win assuming all of his casters have been EMP'd. What about a poor little diamond terran like myself that can never pull off that gosu micro? Do I just get to be rolled every TvP that turns into a macro game?
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I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost
It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build.
However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game.
I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete.
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On August 22 2011 04:01 PeggyHill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:18 eloist wrote:On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote:
That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council. It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything. EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy. Uh, meet a protoss unit called the sentry, the only way protoss can survive early game.
As well as the fact that while it can't "kill" it does effectively take away half of the Protoss units hit points. Yes they regenerate but when a Terran army is a stones throw from you and engaging your army you don't have the option to let them regenerate (most times)
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On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete.
But the build doesn't even need a Raven. There are variations that use one but most of the ones we see just involve Banshees, Tanks, and Marines, and these are more than enough.
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I just want to add a new topic !
I think it would be greath if the helion could put landmine like vulture. That would help a lot MECH in tvp .
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On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete.
...except the ravenless 1-1-1 is probably stronger, so PDD doesn't change anything here.
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I'm eagerly awaiting the statistics graph for this month LOL. It's gonna be awesome.
Anyway, the MC v Puma games were stupid. It's so easy to make one completely gamechanging mistake as protoss but terran is often extremely forgivable. :/ They need to make protoss a much more complete race in HotS, terran is so good, it would be cool if all the other races were as rewarding for skill and forgiving.
I think a potentially fair balance change (not-related to 1-1-1) would be to increase high templar speed. I have no idea why they are so slow compared to infestors and ghosts (which can burrow and cloak anyway). Would make caster v caster wars more even and allow you to get off earlier, critical storms.
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On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete.
There already variation where you dont need the PDD. If that change is to happen, no one would really go raven. Since SM is pretty damn terrible for being 125 mana and does not hit if your opponent isnt retarded. So your investing in a 200gas unit that when it cast SM it will most likely die and SM might not even hit? That make raven even more useless.
Sure 1-1-1 is hella strong and might be even too strong but this would probably even kill the raven unit as it is. It will just make people do the 1-1-1 without raven, wont change anything much except kill a variation of it.
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On August 22 2011 04:19 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete. ...except the ravenless 1-1-1 is probably stronger, so PDD doesn't change anything here.
How is the ravenless 1/1/1 stronger? PDD DENIES stalker shots during battles... what other unit can Terran throw out to have the same effect?
imo instead of making PDD an upgrade, just make the duration 30 seconds so that position the pdd holds isn't a death zone.
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A 1-1-1 with no possibility of PDD *might* be countered by blink stalkers. It would help but probably wouldn't be enough.
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On August 22 2011 04:24 Williammm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:19 ondik wrote:On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete. ...except the ravenless 1-1-1 is probably stronger, so PDD doesn't change anything here. How is the ravenless 1/1/1 stronger? PDD DENIES stalker shots during battles... what other unit can Terran throw out to have the same effect? imo instead of making PDD an upgrade, just make the duration 30 seconds so that position the pdd holds isn't a death zone.
Going PDD isnt stronger because instead of 1 more raven, you can get 1 more banshee. Raven is only good for that spell and if the protoss can make the terran blow PDD before tanks are in good position, the raven become a viability because they are only useful for that spell and they are super fragile too.
While banshee give vision and is sick at harassing. Imagine taldarim altar having tanks seige on your low ground and banshee giving vision and harassing natural. The extra banshee also help because they can snipe down the collosi too which counter this build (kinda).
I am not saying going PDD is stronger or not but I am just saying their are advantage to going either. I personally prefer ravenless.
On August 22 2011 04:26 Yaotzin wrote:
A 1-1-1 with no possibility of PDD *might* be countered by blink stalkers. It would help but probably wouldn't be enough.
No, marine tanks banshee is are all unit that pretty damn good against stalker lol. It not a counter but it fair pretty well. It come down to position and if you can catch tanks unseige but it really depends. It can go both ways.
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On August 22 2011 04:24 Williammm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 04:19 ondik wrote:On August 22 2011 04:07 Spicy Pepper wrote:I tried to educate people on how to fix 1/1/1 in TvP, but TL got freaked out and closed it, so here I repost It's not about whether or not 1/1/1 is a strong build, but it's imbalanced. It's too easy of a win, and the amount of mistakes T has to do to lose, while P plays perfect makes it imbalanced. It's also 1 base, it shouldn't take longer to see counter than we already see Zerg against Slayers BFH build. However, don't despair, because imo this is such an easy fix. Simply fix Point Defense Drone. This doesn't nerf Terran's variety, not does it change too many other aspects of the game. I think Blizzard should make PDD an ability you have to upgrade, while giving the raven Seeker Missile by default. PDD is too strong that early, as it secures a position for T in the middle of the map, while P can't counter the PDD. SM would still allow the T to do this push, but now you wouldn't be able to camp a spot with PDD. You would have to effectively micro SM, giving you a limited time to do your damage. This would also allow Stalkers not be obsolete. ...except the ravenless 1-1-1 is probably stronger, so PDD doesn't change anything here. How is the ravenless 1/1/1 stronger? PDD DENIES stalker shots during battles... what other unit can Terran throw out to have the same effect? imo instead of making PDD an upgrade, just make the duration 30 seconds so that position the pdd holds isn't a death zone.
From what I've read and saw lately, the ideal protoss reaction was to FE and mass zealots+some sentries+immortals with very few stalkers (like 4-5 stalkers when the push with 3 banshees comes).
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If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
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On August 22 2011 02:55 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:43 Figgy wrote:
I think the changes to Protoss are obvious to fix this 1-1-1 and ghost problem.
Un-nerf warpgates, and un-nerf warp-in HTs.
Terran 1-1-1s? Die to 4 gate. Also Zergs won't be able to do insanely greedy things they have been doing since the warpgate changes.
Late Game PvT? Back to how it was before, balanced.
Talk about a one sided perspective. All this changes had merit.
I know equally skilled Terrans lost.
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On August 22 2011 04:32 Spicy Pepper wrote:
If you know your opponent is going 1/1/1 with pure banshee, this is much easier to counter. Without the PDD as a possibility, it allows protoss to explore phoenix and stalker and cannons to counter.
Make raven not useless beside their one purpose of 1-1-1 and it a deal. You clearly dont realize how bad raven are. Terran dont even get them late game TvP DT harass or TvZ posibility of burrow banelings or just getting rid of creep tumor. Pros are willing to burn scan over and over than have a raven. That just really how bad they are lol. Make HSM +1 range or cost 100 mana and we can have your PDD swap with the HSM.
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I feel that the difficulties of TvP arise from the DPS standpoint. Until either colos or storms are on the board, protoss dps is actually quite poor, mostly because the zealots never really get to attack. This is why charge feels so strong because every zealot gets one swipe every 10 seconds basically. That increase in damage, along with the zealot's durability is why chargelots are so good (not to mention causing splash damage onto their units if they went tanks). Also, running from chargelots takes more stuttersteps, meaning the medivacs are healing less, and slightly fewer shots are getting off. The trade-off is that you can't really stay under guardian shields that well once you get charge.
So back to the DPS issue. Sentries tickle everything. Stalkers poke things, but not that hard. Zealots... so angry, so strong, so slow -_-;;;. This is why terran drops are so much more cost effective than toss drops. Sentry and stalker damage cannot outdps medivac healing unless more than one is firing at the same unit at a time, and even then, the unit dies super slowly. To manage a drop, you usually either have to focus the medivac down with the stalkers while the zealots get kited, or you feedback it quickly, and suddenly the drop becomes super easy to manage. And in the midst of all this, you can't even bounce between your bases very quickly, and in the 5 seconds it takes to warp in units, half your probes are dead because of intense MM dps. The trade-off for toss is individual unit durability, but in terms of cost per unit dps, it's extremely poor until you get to T3. Gateway armies can take bioballs pretty evenly with perfect forcefields and guardian shield, until the bioball gets to a certain size because zealots melt, and nothing else in the protoss army aside from archons can tank any damage.
This is why multiprong drops are so effective though. The terran merely has to drop, and the protoss requires the right mix of units (or an overwhelming number of units) and a little micro at each location.
Just something to consider:
Stalker: 6 dps light, 10 dps armored (175 resources)
Zealot: 13 dps (100 resources)
Sentry: 6 dps (150 resources)
Marine: 6 dps (9dps with stim) (50 resource cost)
Marauder: 6 dps light, 13 dps armored (9 and 19-20 dps with stim) (125 resource cost)
If we're going into the 1-1-1 discussion, consider that banshees do 17 dps, have a range of 6, and the speed of a zealot, while stalkers do a measly 6 dps to them, all the while also doing only 6 dps to the massive numbers of marines and taking splash from the tanks. Add in PDD, and you remove even that pathetic stalker dps.
Note also how compactly marines clump together, meaning that not only do they form faster concaves with stim, but their concaves have higher dps per unit area.
This is the very reason forcefields balance this match up, by reducing their immense dps temporarily until you can kill things and reduce it permanently.
In the meantime, you can bring into discussion the fact that terran bio units are more cost efficient, and are mostly mineral heavy, while terrans have the highest mineral mining capability and the least need for gas, meaning they don't even have to have extra scvs on gas.
My ideas for balance are to either make marines fatter (less dps per unit area as your zealots approach), increase sentry dps (which would also help the PvZ matchup greatly since early pushes while you're sentry heavy are so ridiculously hard to stop), make marauders cost more gas, make PDD last something less than 3 minutes, and reduce banshee range to 5 (how many cannons do I have to build to protect my entire mineral line?). Also, a really great point that was brought up on the first page was that the removal of Khaydarin amulet destroyed the mobility gained for HT's by WG tech without compensation. People complain about the immobility of Thors, but HT's move at the same speed... something to consider.
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EPT
