Maruader, Marine, Medivac and Ghost is what Terran has been doing against Protoss foreverrrrrr. Except now they realise that the Ghost is good and gateway armies get rolled.
We've been against this comp for many many months and yet still we can't find the best comp against it?
Storms<EMP Gateway units<MMM + G Collossus> MMM : BUT, it's a bit of a gamble for P as if they get too many collo then the M3G will just plow through the gateway units and the collo are left stranded. But, saying that, what Terran doesn't have 1-2 reactored starports in the late game? A lot of good terrans (Puma did this vs MC even though he didn't have any collo at the time) get the weapons upgrade for vikings before collo are on the field.
Terran is just so versatile that it seems you just have to rely on them screwing up with their ghosts and missing the HTs (which is pretty rare at the top level).
Actually maybe an improvement to the EMP is to make it so that it is concentrated into the centre of the EMP animation and then as it gets to the side the power of it fades out.
So for example the middle could take away the standard 100 shields/energy, 1/3 closer to the side 50-75 ect ect.
On August 22 2011 03:10 Shucks! wrote: Have you seen MC use a warp prism?
Yeah it got sniped by marines.
MC demonstrated how much it sucks since it dies in like 2 shots. If it becomes standard Warp PRism Storm drops, 1 or 2 Vikings shut it down immediately.
Some thoughts on TvP Terran: whole army ranged, fast, cheap upgrades available with just a tech lab, which you already got for your marauders. Stim, combat shields, conc shells. Medivacs make it a very mobile but also very durable force. You can kite, you can drop, good in small numbers as well as in large numbers. Pretty much no Protoss all in to be very worried about. If he goes colossus, which is easily scouted, you already have the infrastructure to hardcounter it. If he adds templar and you only scout the archives when its done? No problem since you build your ghost academy while he is still researching storm. Now its ghost vs templar. Who will win? Well we have a fast unit with AOE instant shield damage and AOE energy drain versus a slow unit with single target energy drain and very strong AOE damage, which sadly isn't instant like emp. Oh and if you wanna dodge a storm with your army you run backwards, which isn't a problem since you would be running backwards even without enemy storms since you have a ranged army. Im not even going to mention 1-1-1. Terran is complete and the other races aren't. We need HOTS and LOTV. Don't tell me I am a balance whiner. I'm just the messenger. Try to attack my message.
A little thought on warp prism to protect templars. Why dont we see ghosts being protected from feedback by medivacs? Medivacs are abundant and a lot more sturdy than warp prisms.
On August 22 2011 03:13 Bagi wrote: Yes, tech changing is a very good way to catch a terran off guard. Calling it a "trick" is a little misleading when zergs do it all the time with their hive units. Eventually you'll have both, and storm + colossi is so much AOE you better have the perfect engagement as terran.
Zerg tech switching is a totally different thing since they can switch their entire army composition instantly. A collo/templar switch is more of a "can I get an advantage with my 2 collo/templar when I reveal them, before he counters them". A trick, reliant on them not scouting/reacting quickly enough.
Also, saying that colossus and templar armies are "easy to beat" and terrans "know the timings" is just a load of generic bullshit that people spew when they can't think of a real argument. Both of these army compositions work just fine and the games always come down to who has the better micro/engagement/upgrades/etc.
Terrans easily beat collo-first builds with microd vikings, 2port if needed. Why do you think everyone does templar first now?
On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote: That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council.
It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything.
EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy.
EMP is ALWAYS good vs protoss, because it takes out more than just energy: 100 shields instantly as well.
And there is usually an army behind that EMP, ready to pounce on the slower, half health, lower DPS protoss army.
On August 22 2011 03:19 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Maruader, Marine, Medivac and Ghost is what Terran has been doing against Protoss foreverrrrrr. Except now they realise that the Ghost is good and gateway armies get rolled.
We've been against this comp for many many months and yet still we can't find the best comp against it?
Storms<EMP Gateway units<MMM + G Collossus> MMM : BUT, it's a bit of a gamble for P as if they get too many collo then the M3G will just plow through the gateway units and the collo are left stranded. But, saying that, what Terran doesn't have 1-2 reactored starports in the late game? A lot of good terrans (Puma did this vs MC even though he didn't have any collo at the time) get the weapons upgrade for vikings before collo are on the field.
Terran is just so versatile that it seems you just have to rely on them screwing up with their ghosts and missing the HTs (which is pretty rare at the top level).
what MMM beats colossus ?? since when !?!?
Against colossus you NEED vikings and thats why a gateway, colossus, HT army is so good, it forces terran to use vikings that cut down on the medivac count and on the MM supply, but either HT's or colossus can be dealt with as terran
On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote: That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council.
It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything.
EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy.
EMP is ALWAYS good vs protoss, because it takes out more than just energy: 100 shields instantly as well.
And there is usually an army behind that EMP, ready to pounce on the slower, half health, lower DPS protoss army.
EMP is an initiation spell. It's not supposed to kill. It's always good. You get good EMP's off, and you get to fight an EMP with roughly half the HP it had, and less forcefields / storm.
On August 22 2011 03:22 Tommie wrote: Terran is complete and the other races aren't. We need HOTS and LOTV. Don't tell me I am a balance whiner. I'm just the messenger. Try to attack my message.
What is this "Terran is complete and that's why they're good" thing supposed to actually mean? Terran "completeness" isn't what makes marines so hard to stop without AOE, it's just their stats. It isn't what makes the ghost - templar micro war so hard, that's the range of EMP and snipe being higher than storm/feedback.
On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote: That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council.
It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything.
EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy.
EMP is ALWAYS good vs protoss, because it takes out more than just energy: 100 shields instantly as well.
And there is usually an army behind that EMP, ready to pounce on the slower, half health, lower DPS protoss army.
EMP rushing is realy bad against colossus armies, its not always good
On August 22 2011 03:22 Tommie wrote: Some thoughts on TvP Terran: whole army ranged, fast, cheap upgrades available with just a tech lab, which you already got for your marauders. Stim, combat shields, conc shells. Medivacs make it a very mobile but also very durable force. You can kite, you can drop, good in small numbers as well as in large numbers. Pretty much no Protoss all in to be very worried about. If he goes colossus, which is easily scouted, you already have the infrastructure to hardcounter it. If he adds templar and you only scout the archives when its done? No problem since you build your ghost academy while he is still researching storm. Now its ghost vs templar. Who will win? Well we have a fast unit with AOE instant shield damage and AOE energy drain versus a slow unit with single target energy drain and very strong AOE damage, which sadly isn't instant like emp. Oh and if you wanna dodge a storm with your army you run backwards, which isn't a problem since you would be running backwards even without enemy storms since you have a ranged army. Im not even going to mention 1-1-1. Terran is complete and the other races aren't. We need HOTS and LOTV. Don't tell me I am a balance whiner. I'm just the messenger. Try to attack my message.
A little thought on warp prism to protect templars. Why dont we see ghosts being protected from feedback by medivacs? Medivacs are abundant and a lot more sturdy than warp prisms.
The only real balance change I would like is removing EMP's ability to reveal cloaked units. I don't think 1-1-1 is imbalanced. I imagine once Protoss figures it out, doing the 1-1-1 will put the Terran behind economically so it will turn into a bad build to do against prepared Protoss.
But EMP seeing cloaked units is too much. Terrans already have scans and Ravens, but they can also deny Observers with a snap?
On August 22 2011 03:14 Fig wrote: That would be the same as getting my HTs with already researched storms after making half a cybernetics core and a twilight council.
It's really not the same. EMP is a great spell but it can't in fact kill anything.
EMP gets really good when there are actually units with energy out - which you are saying comes late. So it's not really important that EMP can be gotten early. Much like it is a non issue that you can get a 'powerful' unit like the immortal early because there isn't much out at the time that it actually counters. Except for sentries but if you have a ton of sentries you are probably playing greedy.
hmm? You do know that EMP removes protoss shields right? That's 33% life gone for zealots, 50% for stalkers and 50% for sentries. Your last part about sentries doesn't even make sense, you don't need a "tone" (not exactly a precise number) of sentries for EMP to be powerful.
On August 22 2011 03:26 flowSthead wrote: The only real balance change I would like is removing EMP's ability to reveal cloaked units. I don't think 1-1-1 is imbalanced. I imagine once Protoss figures it out, doing the 1-1-1 will put the Terran behind economically so it will turn into a bad build to do against prepared Protoss.
It's been around since release, not a single Protoss has a the foggiest idea what to do against it. How long would you like to give it? We're almost at a year since Protosses have been dying to a 1base scouted allin!
On August 22 2011 03:22 Tommie wrote: A little thought on warp prism to protect templars. Why dont we see ghosts being protected from feedback by medivacs? Medivacs are abundant and a lot more sturdy than warp prisms.
Why would ghosts need to be protected from feedback? The only time they are in range of a feedback is after they've already used their energy to EMP, since it has a longer range, thus the feedback will barely tickle
Terran has just a much much bigger safety net than the other races.
If seen terrans throw away their army countless times without any punishment. Bomber vs Huk. Bomber loses 2 times his freaking army stupidly without dealing damage. Huk wants to capitalize, but bomber raises 5 basically free bunkers and is safe. Huk attacks, loses the fight has to retreat. He misjudged the situation the same way bomber did 2 times and has to retreat. Bomber goes off to counter attack and HANDILY (losing about 5-10 supply) ends the game.
Socke vs Thorzain at EU Bnet Invitational. Socke goes for a proxy robo warp-prism 4gate against thorzain that went for a greedy 1rax Fe. Thorzain went on and defended the push, is down to 12 workers against 36 of Socke. Both trade armies and are left with around the same army supply after. 2 Minutes later Thorzain decideds it's time to attack (yeah, after being down 12 to 36 worker a terran can decide to attack) and crushes Socke handily.
I've seen countless games where terran lost a big fight, was down to 40 supply or more, but had a PF and his army next to each other, and Zerg / Protoss couldn't finish the game off, because a PF with repair is impenetrable. Terran comes back to a 200/200 army, wins the battle decisive and goes on to win the game.
It's hilarious how much mistakes a Terran can afford, it's downright laughable.
On August 22 2011 03:26 flowSthead wrote: The only real balance change I would like is removing EMP's ability to reveal cloaked units. I don't think 1-1-1 is imbalanced. I imagine once Protoss figures it out, doing the 1-1-1 will put the Terran behind economically so it will turn into a bad build to do against prepared Protoss.
But EMP seeing cloaked units is too much. Terrans already have scans and Ravens, but they can also deny Observers with a snap?
I have no idea what blizzard was thinking when they put anti-cloack with emp. lore maybe? but a skill based purely on lore is not good for game balance.. thats why Ultralisk size was reduced, thats why emp is super strong vs ALL protoss units
On August 22 2011 01:39 Eps wrote: Regarding Mules, I'm not sure why no one has brought up yet (in my overview of the posts at least) that the Terran Macro mechanic has to be looked at in comparison to the other races. Mules are needed, especially early game so that Terran can keep up with the economy of Protoss and Zerg.
Terrans have one of the most inefficient builders. At the early game, and I mean Very low supply counts. Terran may have 2-3 workers building supply/production facility/refinery. Granted the refinery is a one time build thing. But the point is, when Terrans are setting up their base, they lose a lot of SCV mining time with each worker that is tied up.
Zergs can drone hard through Injects. Although they lose a drone every time they morph a building, Zergs do not have to worry about production facilities early game as much. Most of the drones if they are used for buildings, are invested into Tech buildings (only need One) or Base Defence.
Protoss can Chrono Probes out quickly. They also have by far the most efficient builders. Drop and go. They have to worry about pylon grids and sim-city with that in mind but that's another issue. This is about how time becomes tied up in workers.
Mules are absolutely necessary early-mid game so that Terrans can keep up with the economy of the two other races, as they do not have anything other methods of increasing SCV production (Comparing 1 Base to 1 Base of course). I think the issue that most people have is late game when Terrans can drop multiple Mules down from several OC's into a new Expansion. However if you look at the other races, it's not as if they're helpless. There's nothing stopping a Zerg from hard droning or re-droning, and Protoss can still chrono probes out. Not to mention that each Macro mechanic serves a different purpose in the later stages of the game. Zerg injects and storing larva can help outmacro the other races, while later on they can also remax and reinforce an army insanely fast. While Protoss can use Chrono to help production speed as well as upgrade speed. Terrans gain extra income, supply drops or scans. Each race's macro mechanic in the end serves a different purpose.
Everyone knows MULEs more than compensates for any SCV building inefficiencies to the point of outright abusiveness. Don't take it from me (or general consensus), here listen to one the best 'foreigner' Terrans out there:
@ 8:45 - Thorzain "...well, I have MULEs... so... it doesn't matter if I lose my SCVs!"
He was referring to Game 2 at 5:25
Race most resistant to harass with most devastating harass options Had a Protoss or Zerg suffered that kind of worker loss, WITHOUT A DOUBT the game would be over. And none of the macro 'advantages' of these races you stated would make the slightest difference in the world. And yet Terrans have by far the best harass options - Blue Flame Hellions (even Terrans are terrified of them), Bancheese, Drop Play and even Reapers.
Nerf MULEs by reducing efficiency One way to fix this is keep the income rate the same but alter the MULE such that it wastes minerals in say a 2:1 ratio. That is, for every 3 minerals mined, 1 is wasted. This wouldn't impact the early game but over spamming will result severe wastage. The price for getting minerals faster.
On August 22 2011 03:22 Tommie wrote: A little thought on warp prism to protect templars. Why dont we see ghosts being protected from feedback by medivacs? Medivacs are abundant and a lot more sturdy than warp prisms.
Why would ghosts need to be protected from feedback? The only time they are in range of a feedback is after they've already used their energy to EMP, since it has a longer range, thus the feedback will barely tickle
On August 22 2011 03:19 ProxyKnoxy wrote: Maruader, Marine, Medivac and Ghost is what Terran has been doing against Protoss foreverrrrrr. Except now they realise that the Ghost is good and gateway armies get rolled.
We've been against this comp for many many months and yet still we can't find the best comp against it?
Storms<EMP Gateway units<MMM + G Collossus> MMM : BUT, it's a bit of a gamble for P as if they get too many collo then the M3G will just plow through the gateway units and the collo are left stranded. But, saying that, what Terran doesn't have 1-2 reactored starports in the late game? A lot of good terrans (Puma did this vs MC even though he didn't have any collo at the time) get the weapons upgrade for vikings before collo are on the field.
Terran is just so versatile that it seems you just have to rely on them screwing up with their ghosts and missing the HTs (which is pretty rare at the top level).
what MMM beats colossus ?? since when !?!?
Against colossus you NEED vikings and thats why a gateway, colossus, HT army is so good, it forces terran to use vikings that cut down on the medivac count and on the MM supply, but either HT's or colossus can be dealt with as terran
No that's not what I said - sorry I didn't make it very clear. I showed that collossus is good against MMM and then I showed my reasoning after that
On August 22 2011 03:13 Bagi wrote: Yes, tech changing is a very good way to catch a terran off guard. Calling it a "trick" is a little misleading when zergs do it all the time with their hive units. Eventually you'll have both, and storm + colossi is so much AOE you better have the perfect engagement as terran.
Zerg tech switching is a totally different thing since they can switch their entire army composition instantly. A collo/templar switch is more of a "can I get an advantage with my 2 collo/templar when I reveal them, before he counters them". A trick, reliant on them not scouting/reacting quickly enough.
Also, saying that colossus and templar armies are "easy to beat" and terrans "know the timings" is just a load of generic bullshit that people spew when they can't think of a real argument. Both of these army compositions work just fine and the games always come down to who has the better micro/engagement/upgrades/etc.
Terrans easily beat collo-first builds with microd vikings, 2port if needed. Why do you think everyone does templar first now?
Those 2-3 units make all the difference in the world though, the terran cannot engage unless he has a huge advantage or the counter units out. Of course your whole army won't change like in the case of zerg, simply because the gateway units will always be there. It still allows the protoss to dictate the flow of the game, something the terran cannot do.
"Protoss easily beat vikings with stalkers, blink if needed". Generic statements like this get us nowhere as long as colossi are a good unit, which they definitely are.
The reason templar play is more common is because archons were buffed and became so beastly, plus it offers other benefits like charge and faster DT. I'd argue its the more varied tech path right now, but it doesn't mean colossi are no longer viable.
EPT
